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Old 11-28-2010, 10:37 PM   #127
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so heres the deal, once i get back from afganistan, my 2010 camaro ss will be payed off in full and i was woundering, should i do supercharger or turbocharger, i wana do cams, headers and exhaust, how much and what kind, need help plz, i have a black 2010 camaro ss, LS99
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:49 AM   #128
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so heres the deal, once i get back from afganistan, my 2010 camaro ss will be payed off in full and i was woundering, should i do supercharger or turbocharger, i wana do cams, headers and exhaust, how much and what kind, need help plz, i have a black 2010 camaro ss, LS99
Do supercharger, you can have heads, CAM and don't have to re-route exhaust for a supercharger, it's all bolt on and go. Turbos' require exhaust to run, and therefore really complicated to route exhause pipes, etc.....
However, turbos do provide higher end power, than a supercharger.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:28 PM   #129
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Do supercharger, you can have heads, CAM and don't have to re-route exhaust for a supercharger, it's all bolt on and go. Turbos' require exhaust to run, and therefore really complicated to route exhause pipes, etc.....
However, turbos do provide higher end power, than a supercharger.
Also, if you get turbos you cant do long tubes, you have to do shorties. I want a twin turbo kit but this is all about personal opinion.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:32 PM   #130
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You dont "have" to do shorties...There are at least two kits out there that use the stock exhaust manifolds... The turbos bolt onto them.

I am having a Twin Turbo set up put on my car right after the new year... We are building custom one off exhaust manifolds with stainless tubing, mandrel bent, and hand welded. They will have half inch flanges on both ends. It doesn't make sense to hang 1500 HP worth of turbos on 600 HP worth of exhaust manifolds.

We are also building the short block, heads, and installing axles and a clutch. After I have this done, I'm going hunting for a suspension kit to help get the power to the ground.

850 or more RWHP is very possible... I'll have it back by mid Feb or so, as soon as I get back from my next trip to Brazil...
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:38 PM   #131
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You dont "have" to do shorties...There are at least two kits out there that use the stock exhaust manifolds... The turbos bolt onto them.

I am having a Twin Turbo set up put on my car right after the new year... We are building custom one off exhaust manifolds with stainless tubing, mandrel bent, and hand welded. They will have half inch flanges on both ends. It doesn't make sense to hang 1500 HP worth of turbos on 600 HP worth of exhaust manifolds.

We are also building the short block, heads, and installing axles and a clutch. After I have this done, I'm going hunting for a suspension kit to help get the power to the ground.

850 or more RWHP is very possible... I'll have it back by mid Feb or so, as soon as I get back from my next trip to Brazil...
Dude. You're practically builing a whole new engine. I'd like a crate 454 as a baseline too, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. Not sure if that's what the OP had in mind also.
But, very, very .
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:33 PM   #132
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You dont "have" to do shorties...There are at least two kits out there that use the stock exhaust manifolds... The turbos bolt onto them.

I am having a Twin Turbo set up put on my car right after the new year... We are building custom one off exhaust manifolds with stainless tubing, mandrel bent, and hand welded. They will have half inch flanges on both ends. It doesn't make sense to hang 1500 HP worth of turbos on 600 HP worth of exhaust manifolds.

We are also building the short block, heads, and installing axles and a clutch. After I have this done, I'm going hunting for a suspension kit to help get the power to the ground.

850 or more RWHP is very possible... I'll have it back by mid Feb or so, as soon as I get back from my next trip to Brazil...
He wanted headers... this is why i said it would have to be shorties...
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:07 AM   #133
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Well……you know what they say about opinions . Everyone has one. Here are mine as it relates to the above. Perhaps I should tell everyone what makes me uniquely qualified to address this issue. I am J.R. Granatelli, Owner of Granatelli Motor Sports. I have grown up in the forced induction world literally all my life. I have raced turbocharged Indy Cars, I have co-own my own Indy Car team but more to the point I worked at Paxton Superchargers from 1982 to 1990 and then purchased the company June 1990 and sold the company July of 1998. While all that had transpired, Jim Middlebrook, the owner of Vortech was my employee at Paxton and we gave him is first start in centrifugal supercharging as well. In 1982 we built a twin Paxton blown small block Chevy and installed it into my ’82 daily driver Camaro. We ran 204mph and set many records. However, even though I worked at Paxton I was always fascinated with Turbochargers - I removed the twin Paxton set up and installed twin 62mm turbos. We built 2 motors, 1 for the Camaro and 1 for a Caprice Classic 4 door (want to set both records) The simply by removing the Paxtons and installing the turbos we gained 180hp for a total of 950hp (seems like not so much today but we are talking about 1983 when this happened) The Camaro ran 261 and the Caprice ended up setting the 4 door record as well at 218 with 4 passengers too.

After selling Paxton in 1998 I went full speed ahead into the turbocharger business. We build and designed kits for many of the most popular GM, Ford and Dodge applications and many custom kits as well. In 2001 Ford had us build a Paxton Blown 4v Modular engine to go drag racing under their banner and again using 1 Novi 2000 supercharger (which I designed when I still owned Paxton) we made 1080hp. Again I removed the Paxton and installed 1 101mm turbo and made 1480hp.

Fast Forward to 2006 – I was approached by Jerry Magnuson to help work on the Eaton type Roots/Rotor/Screw type blowers. While this was a new path for us, I was more then eager to learn about this form of forced induction as well – now here comes my opinion….

CamBoy – I say NO WAY do you install a centrifugal on your V6. Centrifugals make boost linear to engine RPM. That means down low the centrifugal will not satisfy you – With the V6 you need to make up for the lack of Grunt (torque) right off the line. I think a turbo kit we be awesome for your requirement or a Magnuson type blower. I really don’t know anyone that offers a nice direct fit as off today. We are going to work on the V6 turbo kit as soon s the V8 is done. Whoever does build or sell you a forced inductions kit will most likely offer it with the appropriate air intake to go with it. I know Lingenfelter was working on V6 stuff but I am sure the prices will be stiff too. As for taking out a 370hp Dodge RT – I would say YES for sure that will be plausible

Riderover40 – To each his own – I hear what you’re saying but just a few things. Turbolag is a thing of the past. There is no such thing anymore as turbolag. When sized properly to the application it just isn’t there

Look at the dyno graph below -



I understand it is for a Mustang but it paints a perfect picture of how a perfectly sized turbo has no lag – even as low as 2600 the engine has picked up 60hp – that shows the boost is already there – in fact, 60hp at 2600 is a gain of 52% - that means this engine had at least 7psi by 2600 on its way to 10psi total. Turbos are as reliable and durable are any supercharger too. HEAT – I agree if you mount a turbo up by the valve cover there is extra unwanted heat and that needs to be factored in. We typically mount the turbos down low and heat is a non factor –

As for looks – I agree a Maggy in the center of the engine is hard to beat for looks – it looks clean – but so does a nice twin turbo system – as for centrifugal blowers like Paxton, Vortech and Procharger – they make but loads of top end power – probably the most but they look like they are out of place. – We agree on that

GenetX – If you have a V8 2010 and want all a great package – you cant go wrong with an off the shelf TVS2300 from Magnuson – with that said at 7.5 psi they make 450 to the tires in the real world – that works out to be 560 at the crank. If you plan to go over that - you need more than just the kit as delivered – like smaller blower pulley – voids warranty on blower, plus headers and perhaps a cam change. It is easy to make 550 at the tires with the TVS2300 but it takes more than just a standard kit with a 2 or 3 year warranty. The turbo on the other hand has proven to be a real 500 hp to the tires at just 5.5 psi and even 600 at 8psi. Single or twin – twin makes more power down low and package better – it is just a matter of moving air from point A to point T – (throttle body) - Wait until you see the twin turbo kit GMS and TTi are working on. It is worth the wait (4 more weeks)

Hope a few read this and take it for what it is worth – in the end you can’t make a bad choice - short of putting a centrifugal on a 6 cylinder – don’t do it.

SO we all know I am being totally honest – Yes I agree below 3k a Maggie is KING. After that the turbos win hands down. If what you want is a great car that is silky smooth down low and make BALLS out power on the Top – the centrifugal is great.
This thread certainly has legs - it has been around for a very long time and I like how there is still a contingent of guys that focus on forced induction
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:56 AM   #134
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Granatelli vs. Hellion?
This question has been asked and answered over and over. Naturally we are prejudice as to our opinion but I will take a stab at it again

Just looking at each kit side by side tells a big part of the story. Our fit and finish, our design and layout and most importantly, our end results speak volumes.

GMS uses Bell Engineering Intercooler cores. They are hand built and have been regarded as the best of the best in terms of air flow vs. pressure drop and inlet vs. outlet temp efficiency. We use the largest, custom fitting parts that are designed around the frontal area of the Camaro.






The competitiors use a simple generic intercooling system designed by Vibrant

http://www.vibrantperformance.com/main.php

The parts are pretty but not "custom" by any stretch of the imagination. Side by side, again, it is easy to see the real difference. You can also see it at the wheels. Lbs. for lbs of boost the difference shows up exponentially.

Turbos - Turbonetics makes nice stuff - there is no denying. We offer and sell many kits using thier product. However when it came time build the ultimate TT kit for the Camaro Platform, we looked no further than our own past 10 years experience of racing and designing LS engine single and twin turbo systems. Here is a video that shows our off the shelf TT kit we sold in years past for the C5 and C6 Corvette



Here is a proven bolt on 1000hp and 1100ft/lbs twin turbo kit. You will note both our Camaro and Corvette kit use the same intercooler core layout proving there efficiency and room for growth. At the end of the video, you will note we ran this with Turbonetics turbos. We saw and know where the turbos give up and what kind of boost it takes to make those numbers. Therefore when the 2010 Camaro kit was designed we went directly to the Precision PTE 6265 turbos. Each turbo is capable of 650 to 676 hp at only 15psi meaning our kit WILL MAKE 1300hp plus HP at only 15psi. That is 300hp more then the Turbonetics turbos at the same boost and that translate to better efficiency and better power down low in the REAL Area of the curve that 90% of us are looking for.

You get what you pay for – Simply put we use better parts and better material through the kit and that translates into a $1000 price hike over the other kit. When you go to install the kit you see the difference and after you have had the kit for 6 months you really come to appreciate the kit even more so.

Compound that with the fact we hard pipe and properly design a custom intake for each turbo to insure they always get fresh cool clean air and you have a winner. All too often when kits are designed they forget about the air going into the turbos – We Did Not












Last edited by Granatelli; 11-30-2010 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 12:23 PM   #135
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Yeah. I really like Hotchkis, it would have been nice if they had bushing kits too. However, sometimes good to mix / match so your not stuck with one vendor. So, I have Hotchkis springs, sway bars, chassis / strut braces, and end-links, will go with Phadt for all their bushings. Like Pedders too but their way too complicated with all the varying versions of their products.
Problem for me is if I were close to these vendors I could just go by and say hello as in your case, for me they're not located anywhere in Canada, so have to do research, discuss with installer and take a chance.
I will tell you though, the Hotchkis kit made a huge difference until I got the new CAM and got an additional 50-60rwhps., and then wheels spinning, hops are occassiion but want to reduce any chances of hopping considering I know this creates potential to break things.
Have you seen the new stuff GMS came out with as it relates to rear suspension parts

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Old 11-30-2010, 01:04 PM   #136
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Do supercharger, you can have heads, CAM and don't have to re-route exhaust for a supercharger, it's all bolt on and go. Turbos' require exhaust to run, and therefore really complicated to route exhaust pipes, etc.....
However, turbos do provide higher end power, than a supercharger.
Not to sound like a broken record anymore than the rest of the crowd that keeps perpetuation that turbos “require” rerouting the exhaust but…..You do not have to re route the exhaust with any of the twin turbo kits being sold. Granatelli, Hellion and the others ALL send you the assembly



It all comes assembled – just bolt it to the stock manifold and the back slide into your stock or aftermarket exhaust system – you can even pre order with 2.5” or 3” collectors



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Also, if you get turbos you cant do long tubes, you have to do shorties. I want a twin turbo kit but this is all about personal opinion.
Headers do not help – you do not need headers – especially with the turbo. The factory cast iron manifolds are golden and do the job very well. I get confused and bewildered when I read that header in some peoples mind are an absolute MOST. They are not and create more headache than they are worth in most cases. Not to mention on the dyno below 500rwhp they have not been proven to make power at all. Sure you can read posts that say “ I installed my XYZ headers and had the car tuned and picked up 20 plus hp” But 95% of that power comes from the tune not the headers. There have been countless tests done on this and headers have not proven to make any significant difference. Other than make the engine louder and magnifying the valve train noise. – Please do not get me wrong, I am not against headers. I am always for anything that gets you even ½ a hp but one has the weigh the good and bad associated with any part and headers are as much a trade off as they are a gain. This engine made 725hp and 775 ft/lbs with headers. Well it also made 714hp and 760 ft/lbs with stock manifolds – was it worth it? YOU decide

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Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
You don’t "have" to do shorties...There are at least two kits out there that use the stock exhaust manifolds... The turbos bolt onto them. ...
Yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
I am having a Twin Turbo set up put on my car right after the New Year... We are building custom one off exhaust manifolds with stainless tubing, mandrel bent, and hand welded. They will have half inch flanges on both ends. It doesn't make sense to hang 1500 HP worth of turbos on 600 HP worth of exhaust manifolds.

We are also building the short block, heads, and installing axles and a clutch. After I have this done, I'm going hunting for a suspension kit to help get the power to the ground.

850 or more RWHP is very possible... I'll have it back by mid Feb or so, as soon as I get back from my next trip to Brazil...

If you go as far and ½ flanges then great but in the end, I still contend it makes an insignificant difference – at up to 1300 proven hp

Last edited by Granatelli; 11-30-2010 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:28 PM   #137
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Have you seen the new stuff GMS came out with as it relates to rear suspension parts

So, if I were to take a guess I'd say these are aftermarket rear control arms that replace the stock one that looks like it came from a piece of sheet metal.
However, why two different styles?
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:01 PM   #138
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So, if I were to take a guess I'd say these are aftermarket rear control arms that replace the stock one that looks like it came from a piece of sheet metal.
However, why two different styles?
Top is stock

Middle is Chrome moly with forged ends

Bottom is Billet
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Old 12-26-2010, 11:24 AM   #139
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How practical are exhaust cutouts with a TT setup?
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Old 12-26-2010, 11:59 AM   #140
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Brian -

Please don't get me wrong - I am torn between multiple lovers here. You and the world know how I feel about the Novi-2000. I think the centrifugal certainly has its place in the market - hell I spent what seems like my entire life pushing and talking about centrifugals. When I sold Paxton - I kept the Novi blowers on all my cars and boat with the exception on my 1997 Tahoe which was my first attempt since the 1982 Camaro at Turbo charging. With a very wimpy Turbonetics 60-1 turbo. I made 10hp more then the Novi at 6psi and 112 ft/lbs more. At 10psi the Novi was making 38hp more then the baby turbo (2.5" inlet on turbo vs 4.00" inlet on Novi-2000) but the turbo still managed 104ft/lbs more. So as a truck owner towing a boat - The turbo was king. At the drag strip - you can image what happened.

As any drag racer on the planet if they would trade 38hp for 100 ft/lbs. - Anyone with any experience knows 100ft/lbs in barge like SUV trumps 40 hp every time.

Look at the turbo system on the orange car a few posts back, it packages as nice as any centrifugal kit I have seen so far for the Camaro. But knowing what I know and seeing what the dyno results are



8psi - 484hp / 421ft/lbs - Centrifugal
7psi - 560hp / 606ft/lbs - Turbo

Hard to argue with +76hp & +185ft/lbs of the turbo system

Personally since I never drive a car past 5k miles I would run the turbo if these were my only 2 choices. However if this was my true daily driver and only car - it would be hard to argue that the Vortech system is not the safer of the 2. I would love to be proven wrong but I think hanging a huge ass turbo in that location is definitely a MEGA heater and will take it toll on the surrounding areas - so for that reason I agree the Centrifugal is a great choice.

However - mounting twin smaller 68mm turbos down low like these:

http://www.gmsvideos.com/featured_la...php?reset=true

is a totally different story - There is no heat issues because the air running under the car more then makes up for it - Even a centrifugal or screw blower on top of the motor adds heat - No where near what the turbo does but still MORE HEAT.

Now to address the specifics of the 1000's of happy 350Z and G35 customers and quite a few 4.0L Mustang owners. Have they had a chance to compare to a turbo in the same application?

Listen to the Vortech You tube video and the GMS video back to back - you can hear how quick the turbo motor "ramps” the torque number down low on the centrifugal can't come close to the turbo.

I am not saying the centrifugal is a bad choice - I am saying a turbo on a v6 (that already is giving up bottom end) is a better choice when it comes to torque and torque moves the car - AND the centrifugal does not add noticeable torque down low where the v6 needs it

torque is king when u have a camaro or G8 thats 4000 lbs. My old stock with dod l76 made 616whp at 5000 rpm and 649 wtq at 3700 rpm on 10 psi on pump gas. Cant beat that to get a tank rolling!!!! STS 60-1 twins....
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