Supercharger / Turbocharger Results (INFO) Thread

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Cole@Fastlane

This will always be a debate of which one is better between gear heads.

My two cents is this

Why add more parasitic drag to the engine by driving a supercharger off of the crankshaft when you can use the exhaust waste to drive a turbocharger? The whole purpose to adding pressure to the intake is the addition of power and torque so why give up any to run a charger when you can charge the intake without the loss of any power?

Well....speaking as the guy that sells arguably the nicest and best laid out twin turbo kits on the market - and the past owner of Paxton Superchargers, (also designed the Novi-2000) Nothing is really free.

The exh manifolds on most turbo systems could be deemed as restrictive when compared to long tube headers - so 1 could argue that the exhaust system on a turbo car “robs power” vs. good long tube headers. But following your line of thinking, yes I agree Turbos are more efficient lb for lb in most applications. And I still ay the Magnuson has more guts below 2500 then any turbo system – after that the turbo is king – they both have there place

[Cole@Fastlane]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

Well....speaking as the guy that sells arguably the nicest and best laid out twin turbo kits on the market - and the past owner of Paxton Superchargers, (also designed the Novi-2000) Nothing is really free.

The exh manifolds on most turbo systems could be deemed as restrictive when compared to long tube headers - so 1 could argue that the exhaust system on a turbo car “robs power” vs. good long tube headers. But following your line of thinking, yes I agree Turbos are more efficient lb for lb in most applications. And I still ay the Magnuson has more guts below 2500 then any turbo system – after that the turbo is king – they both have there place

1st of all i never said it was free but you said it all for me anyway.after 2500rpm the turbo is KING i mean really who cares about idle to 2500.

I dont think anybody is going to start racing but making you shift at 2500 rpm anytime soon.

Turbos are more efficient lb for lb PERIOD.....

[radz28]

Would anyone agree that it depends on application?

If I'm towing, do I need that power/torque down low?

If I'm racing, will that power/torque doen there get me off the line quicker?

Will being a little softer down low help me come off the line easier and help me plant the power?

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by radz282003

Would anyone agree that it depends on application?

If I'm towing, do I need that power/torque down low?

If I'm racing, will that power/torque doen there get me off the line quicker?

Will being a little softer down low help me come off the line easier and help me plant the power?

Love the wing on your car - can I see more pics like icon? Avatar thing?

If you are towing - peak torque is what you want

If you are racing you want peak everything Turbo are best for real street car that want the best of all worlds.

The maggies look the best when you open the hood - very OE looking and they make goos power

Pure Racing - it is a toss up between a centrifugal and turbos

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

Love the wing on your car - can I see more pics like icon? Avatar thing?

If you are towing - peak torque is what you want

If you are racing you want peak everything Turbo are best for real street car that want the best of all worlds.

The maggies look the best when you open the hood - very OE looking and they make goos power

Pure Racing - it is a toss up between a centrifugal and turbos

LOL - I'm sorry. My avatar is RICE. It's just a sceenshot of my Forza Motorsport 3 SS. I'm not as cool as most of the rest of the people here.

Thanks for the info'

[Cole@Fastlane]

Originally Posted by radz282003

Would anyone agree that it depends on application?

If I'm towing, do I need that power/torque down low?

If I'm racing, will that power/torque doen there get me off the line quicker?

Will being a little softer down low help me come off the line easier and help me plant the power?

I love how you spell your state and city.

If you are towing you just tighten up the aspect ratio of the turbine side to light the turbo quicker.The faster you want to spool the turbo the tighter you get the a/r.In a racing application you open up the a/r for higher rpm power but it wont light up as quick.

If superchargers were better for towing i think all the diesel manufacturers would be using them but they stopped using them and went to turbos in the 1970s and have never looked back.

There is absolutely no application where a supercharger is going to out perform a turbo.

It comes down to what you like.I personally would rather just keep an eye on the egt guage than have to worry about belt tensioners, 8 or 10 rib set ups with all the pulleys, and worrying about belt slipage.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Cole@Fastlane

I love how you spell your state and city.

If you are towing you just tighten up the aspect ratio of the turbine side to light the turbo quicker.The faster you want to spool the turbo the tighter you get the a/r.In a racing application you open up the a/r for higher rpm power but it wont light up as quick.

If superchargers were better for towing i think all the diesel manufacturers would be using them but they stopped using them and went to turbos in the 1970s and have never looked back.

There is absolutely no application where a supercharger is going to out perform a turbo.

It comes down to what you like.I personally would rather just keep an eye on the egt guage than have to worry about belt tensioners, 8 or 10 rib set ups with all the pulleys, and worrying about belt slipage.

I had better words to use, but I have to look professional, lol

Well - I'm not going to argue with guys who've had the results you have I can't think of any diesels have have SCs... I think I can be honest and say that I just lean more toward SCs, though I totally recognize turbos being AT LEAST equals in terms of power and efficiency.

[Cole@Fastlane]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I had better words to use, but I have to look professional, lol

Well - I'm not going to argue with guys who've had the results you have I can't think of any diesels have have SCs... I think I can be honest and say that I just lean more toward SCs, though I totally recognize turbos being AT LEAST equals in terms of power and efficiency.

Really that is all it comes down to is personal preference.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Cole@Fastlane

I love how you spell your state and city.

If you are towing you just tighten up the aspect ratio of the turbine side to light the turbo quicker. The faster you want to spool the turbo the tighter you get the a/r.In a racing application you open up the a/r for higher rpm power but it wont light up as quick.

If superchargers were better for towing I think all the diesel manufacturers would be using them but they stopped using them and went to turbos in the 1970s and have never looked back.

There is absolutely no application where a supercharger is going to out perform a turbo.

It comes down to what you like. I personally would rather just keep an eye on the egt gauge than have to worry about belt tensioners, 8 or 10 rib set ups with all the pulleys, and worrying about belt slippage.

Let me start by saying, I am in this to speak freely and I don’t; want to come off as arguementive...with that said –

If you are towing, yes the what you ay is true, you can change the turbo configuration to be “more favorable” for towing however turbo or turbo(s) will make a sh-t pot of heat if you are towing a heavy load at sustained mid to high engine RPMs and that ain’t good. Plan on building a cast iron manifold from the head to the turbo. – I know the turbo is bitchen but it is what it will cost in reliability to the surrounding area that worries me. Like that guy in the other post that built a twin turbo kit and mounted the turbos basically right up against the valve covers.

Respectfully – you are wrong about the diesel manufacturers and why they use turbos. First of all even today many of the biggest and baddest diesel motor that come from Detroit Diesel and Volvo use compound forced induction – turbos over a roots. But more importantly the turbo on a diesel packages better and lives forever. Roots blowers won’t go 1 million plus miles like a turbo will and centrifugals and diesels are an oxy-moron.

Again while I am a huge fan of turbos and we do sell a complete line of turbo kits for the street and real world, it will be hard to beat a huge centrifugal on a gas motor and last time I checked Top fuel still ran blowers – regardless of how much power it takes to drive them the pay-back far and a way exceeds it in that application.

Lastly Pro Mod – Show me 1 turbo car that has been consistent, repeatable, reliable and so on. The fastest guys in Pro Mod with turbos are my friends and / or consult with my friends. I want nothing more than to see a turbo do well in Pro Mod but the blowers still rule – fa-getta-bout Nitrous

Hard to believe the turbo guy is now talking about blowers but hey the fact are the facts – Turbo makes more power lb for lb but that does not always mean they make the most power

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I had better words to use, but I have to look professional, lol

Well - I'm not going to argue with guys who've had the results you have I can't think of any diesels have have SCs... I think I can be honest and say that I just lean more toward SCs, though I totally recognize turbos being AT LEAST equals in terms of power and efficiency.

A turbo is not equal to a SC in power and efficiency - the Turbo is flat out better 90% of the time - It is just what it costs (not just dollars) to get there sometimes that scares people.

[Granatelli]

I will say - I just went to the Fastlane site and it looks like a nice place to take your car. I hope if you are in California or a west coast customer you try us out.

[Camaro21]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

408 stock? Wow! that is 70hp higher than any car we have ever dyno'd here with no mods

I had Kooks Headers, High Flow Cats and Dyno Tune prior to getting the Maggie installed..

[Cole@Fastlane]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

Let me start by saying, I am in this to speak freely and I don’t; want to come off as arguementive...with that said –

If you are towing, yes the what you ay is true, you can change the turbo configuration to be “more favorable” for towing however turbo or turbo(s) will make a sh-t pot of heat if you are towing a heavy load at sustained mid to high engine RPMs and that ain’t good. Plan on building a cast iron manifold from the head to the turbo. – I know the turbo is bitchen but it is what it will cost in reliability to the surrounding area that worries me. Like that guy in the other post that built a twin turbo kit and mounted the turbos basically right up against the valve covers.

Respectfully – you are wrong about the diesel manufacturers and why they use turbos. First of all even today many of the biggest and baddest diesel motor that come from Detroit Diesel and Volvo use compound forced induction – turbos over a roots. But more importantly the turbo on a diesel packages better and lives forever. Roots blowers won’t go 1 million plus miles like a turbo will and centrifugals and diesels are an oxy-moron.

Again while I am a huge fan of turbos and we do sell a complete line of turbo kits for the street and real world, it will be hard to beat a huge centrifugal on a gas motor and last time I checked Top fuel still ran blowers – regardless of how much power it takes to drive them the pay-back far and a way exceeds it in that application.

Lastly Pro Mod – Show me 1 turbo car that has been consistent, repeatable, reliable and so on. The fastest guys in Pro Mod with turbos are my friends and / or consult with my friends. I want nothing more than to see a turbo do well in Pro Mod but the blowers still rule – fa-getta-bout Nitrous

Hard to believe the turbo guy is now talking about blowers but hey the fact are the facts – Turbo makes more power lb for lb but that does not always mean they make the most power

You can not compare top fuel or pro mod using a roots to anything.The reason they run them is because the fuel they use cools the air charge so there is no intercooler needed and they are able to run a 15:1 static compression ratio before boost.

Look at the drag radial classes,outlaw 5.0,outlaw 10.5,true 10.5.THE TURBO CARS RULE those classes.
The diesel manufacturers run compound twin turbo set ups not with blowers.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Cole@Fastlane

You can not compare top fuel or pro mod using a roots to anything.The reason they run them is because the fuel they use cools the air charge so there is no intercooler needed and they are able to run a 15:1 static compression ratio before boost.

Look at the drag radial classes,outlaw 5.0,outlaw 10.5,true 10.5.THE TURBO CARS RULE those classes.
The diesel manufacturers run compound twin turbo set ups not with blowers.

You and I are on the same page and same side - I hope others realize that as we banter about the finest points.

I have a Detroit Deisel in my motorhome and it is single turbo "yes compound" into a roots blower. My fathers is a twin turbo forced through a bigger roots

Words from Detroit website

Over the years, Detroit has been the most successful engine used in most passenger buses. Using the tried and true 8v92 making 500hp and 2100 ft/lbs trqe these engine achieve greatness by twin turbocharging the commonly know roots style compressor (supercharger) What is unique in design is the lack of a belt driven appendage. The blower is driven off a gear connected in the center of the crankshaft. Recently however, companies have strived to meet ecological standards. Most recently Detroit, which had the famous 6V92 in all MC9s, a single turbocharged application compounding through a smaller but similar design roots blower, now offer their 4 stroke series 60, 300-500 hp engines. This is a great engine, but it's fairly new; less than 15 years in popularity, and is also one of the most expensive ones in the marketplace. They average between $18,000 - $27,000.

As for class dominance - I see you sell Hellion Turbo kits - Yet Hellions' flagship car is a Procharger blown engine package - thier turbo car witht he same engine and bigger tires can't go as fast - perhaps now (not sure) but for a long time.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

You and I are on the same page and same side - I hope others realize that as we banter about the finest points.

I have a Detroit Deisel in my motorhome and it is single turbo "yes compound" into a roots blower. My fathers is a twin turbo forced through a bigger roots

Words from Detroit website

Over the years, Detroit has been the most successful engine used in most passenger buses. Using the tried and true 8v92 making 500hp and 2100 ft/lbs trqe these engine achieve greatness by twin turbocharging the commonly know roots style compressor (supercharger) What is unique in design is the lack of a belt driven appendage. The blower is driven off a gear connected in the center of the crankshaft. Recently however, companies have strived to meet ecological standards. Most recently Detroit, which had the famous 6V92 in all MC9s, a single turbocharged application compounding through a smaller but similar design roots blower, now offer their 4 stroke series 60, 300-500 hp engines. This is a great engine, but it's fairly new; less than 15 years in popularity, and is also one of the most expensive ones in the marketplace. They average between $18,000 - $27,000.

As for class dominance - I see you sell Hellion Turbo kits - Yet Hellions' flagship car is a Procharger blown engine package - thier turbo car witht he same engine and bigger tires can't go as fast - perhaps now (not sure) but for a long time.

---

[radz28]

Updating...

[Camaro21]

I recently had a Stage II Blower Cam installed by Andy at ADM Performance to go along with my other mods (Listed in my signature). The cam added an additional 60 RWHP. I have a Magnaflow axle back exhaust on order. My car made over 600RWHP on the dyno.

[klandry]

Hi, I am new to the forums, but I have been reading here alot ever sense i got my new 2SS Camaro 4 days ago. I was looking to put a SC in it but happened to stumble across this discussion and I am glad i did because of the information/geniuses that are taking the time to hash this out.

I only have one question and it might have gotten answered already but....which one is more reliable? As in installing it and 2 years down the line it frying/going out?

I read up about how placment for a Turbo is key for not frying it or the engine/parts.

I am asking becuase iam leaning more towards getting a Turbo kit now after reading this thred. I had a SC on my first car (v6 grand prix dayton 500 edition) and the only problem I ever had after about 6 years was the SC pullying snapping. That and a new belt costed me maybe around 250$. I always keep 93 running in my cars and after the dealer gas runs out I will be putting 93 on my camaro as well and probley doing the fuse pull trick mentioned on here.

This forums is very informtional and I love every min I am in here reading it, learning more about the car. Thanks.

[dracer98]

Originally Posted by Camaro21

I recently had a Stage II Blower Cam installed by Andy at ADM Performance to go along with my other mods (Listed in my signature). The cam added an additional 60 RWHP. I have a Magnaflow axle back exhaust on order. My car made over 600RWHP on the dyno.

Looks like you lost nothing so no trade off - great choice

[dracer98]

Originally Posted by klandry

Hi, I am new to the forums, but I have been reading here alot ever sense i got my new 2SS Camaro 4 days ago. I was looking to put a SC in it but happened to stumble across this discussion and I am glad i did because of the information/geniuses that are taking the time to hash this out.

I only have one question and it might have gotten answered already but....which one is more reliable? As in installing it and 2 years down the line it frying/going out?

I read up about how placment for a Turbo is key for not frying it or the engine/parts.

I am asking becuase iam leaning more towards getting a Turbo kit now after reading this thred. I had a SC on my first car (v6 grand prix dayton 500 edition) and the only problem I ever had after about 6 years was the SC pullying snapping. That and a new belt costed me maybe around 250$. I always keep 93 running in my cars and after the dealer gas runs out I will be putting 93 on my camaro as well and probley doing the fuse pull trick mentioned on here.

This forums is very informtional and I love every min I am in here reading it, learning more about the car. Thanks.

For me the choice was easy - Granatelli Twin Turbo - it is all you will ever need - no headers - no drama - just an easy simple 550hp or you can turn it up to 1200

[dracer98]

Numbers

[klandry]

Originally Posted by dracer98

For me the choice was easy - Granatelli Twin Turbo - it is all you will ever need - no headers - no drama - just an easy simple 550hp or you can turn it up to 1200

Ok cool, but are these turbo's reliable as in longevity? Will I have to replace them in the near future? I do not have much experance with turbo's so I do not know what the deal is as in maintenance and so forth? Also how much was it for the complete install on your twin turbo system from Granatelli?

[Coop]

Isnt it true that with a turbo on a stock engine I have to worry more about the internals than I would with a maggie?

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by klandry

Ok cool, but are these turbo's reliable as in longevity? Will I have to replace them in the near future? I do not have much experance with turbo's so I do not know what the deal is as in maintenance and so forth? Also how much was it for the complete install on your twin turbo system from Granatelli?

The turbo will last an easy 100k miles. They are maintainance free. The get lubrication from the engine oil as well so every oil change is an oil change for the blower too

You will not have to replace the turbos - I am sure of it

We get $1100 foir an install or $1600 for install with custom tune on the camaro. However you can do the install yourself with relative ease

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Coop

Isnt it true that with a turbo on a stock engine I have to worry more about the internals than I would with a maggie?

NO - that is not true at all. Lets say you wanted to limit the rwhp to 550. You could do that with a turbo with less boost and less stres on the crank. That is not to say the Maggie stresses the crank either but there is load created by the Maggie that you would not have with a turbo set up