Supercharger / Turbocharger Results (INFO) Thread

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by JAFOnomore

based on the sheer numbers of magnuson blower guys here - it is hard to argue that it is not the best way to go. It looks cool too. I am having a GMS Cold Air installed and dyno'd shortly and I know that will also work with a mag blower if I ever get up the funds to go f/i

I love the stealth look of the turbo though. I think you could twin turbo your car and run the piping through the factory air box so it looks all stock

We have done this with our corvette kits

[SSE 4 2SS]

J.R.

I have taken the time to read this entire thread. If I missed anything, I apologize, but I have a few questions.

First off, thank you for taking the time to explain your area of expertise. I am torn between Supercharging and Turbo-Supercharging my Camaro.

I have an SS with the LS-3.

You mentioned the cooling of the Turbo system by undercar air flow. Are the turbo's in your system mounted under the car at the exit point of the exhaust manifold, or are they mounted at the rear?

I read where with a properly sized system, there is relatively no "turbo lag." Can you explain this a little more. I am very intrigued by this.

My next question has to do with some of the dyno graphs that have been posted. It seems that unless I'm reading them incorrectly, there is a huge in-rush of power, starting from near idle up to around 5000-5500 and then the powers drops off. Is this common. I was under the impression that Turbos created power up to and beyond the RPM capability of the engine. Is there something in the way the boost comes on that reads differently from the "blown" engines on the Dyno. The blown engines seem to make torque hard and fast and build HP all the way to or almost all the way to the red line. The charts shown here seem to show the turbo engines climbing abruptly and then peaking and dropping back off...

I know there is some professional difference of opinion related to this, but at the same relative boost level, if a turbo system provides more net gain, is there any relative difference on the long range strain on the engine? Would it be prudent to go ahead and put forged internals in the short block, or would that be un-necessary at moderate boost levels? Is it recommended to put a fuel booster or different injectors on a supercharged engine. I would not want to lean an engine out and risk breaking a piston through ring binding against the cylinder walls....
I never really knew the way a waste gate worked until reading this thread, and a question related to that is is the waste gate adjustable in small increments at any time or is this something should only be done during a dyno session? For example, could you have a hand held tuner and
"adjust" the waste gate from say 6 to 8 lbs of boost and just plug in a different tune....I guess if would be a boost on the fly so to speak...

I've ridden turbo'ed motorcycles and they are amazing, and therfore I am leaning a little towards a turbo system... I'm also a fan of sleepers. To me there is nothing more satisfying than knocking the smirk off someones face as their much more expensive car is suddenly trailing far behind a car they just knew they could smoke.

If I was to buy one of your systems, do you have a recommendation for an installer you have used in the Central South Texas area. I live between Austin and San Antonio... I'm still a couple of months away from purchasing, but I want to have my ducks lined up when the time comes...

I apologize for the long post... but really want the information from someone that has been there done that....

Anyone else with arguments for something else, or supporting information, feel free to chime in...

[Granatelli]

Lots of people are torn as both methods offer a great power increase. It just comes down to what you really want vs. what you can afford. The twin turbo set ups are at the top of the food chain and of all the twin turbo kits out there the Granatelli/TTi system offers the most power with superior fit and finish. We are talking about “real” production style kits. You can always find companies that promise the world with no ability to deliver. I have exhausted my opinion as to why I feel the turbo is the best choice – But basically it makes the most power (or should I say, it has the ability to make mega power and always superior torque).

Our turbos are mounted directly off the exhaust manifolds – Here are a few pics:




The black plate you see is spaced down .75” This allows cools air to vent over the turbos – it is natural airflow and therefore has the same cooling effect as it would on a stock application.. (We do not offer the muffler turbo style kits – they have tremendous turbo lag. As an example we dyno’d an STS kit the other day and at 3800 it had only reached 3psi on its way to 7 at 6000 rpm – that is just not right)

Turbo Lag – As defined lag is the delay or time it takes for positive pressure to reach the intake after going WOT (wide open throttle). In the past, turbos would have a lag, meaning it would take more time for a turbocharger to get positive pressure than say a roots type blower. What they don’t tell you is it takes a ton of power to drive the blower so it is all a trade off – fast forward 20 year later and it still take a ton of power to drive the blower but turbos have come a long way and the way they work now, TWINS have virtually no lag. That means when you step on it – you see positive pressure in the manifold. Search any Granatelli and Hellion customer on this board – NO ONE complains about lack of boost right off idle. – Therefore LAG is a non issue with Twins – single turbos may have a small amount but nothing to worry about.

If you see power drop off in the graphs it is because we are all turning the dyno of at that point. I can tell you for sure our turbo kit will just keep making power until you blower the engine up – it does not give up at any RPM – the camshaft may drop off but ….. it will pull until you lift – I think the dyno graph are confusing you – if you are comparing our TT kit to say a Maggie – the Maggie may have more torque below 2000 rpm but after that – we win hands down all the way to 10,000 if you have the balls to go that high

You do not need to forge the internals if you plan to stay below 575 to the tires

Something just came up – I hope to complete this tonight – see ya

[Granatelli]

most of the forced induction kits sold will include the mating (required) injectors. As for a fuel pump booster, the stock system will support 475 to 500 at the rear. After that you need at minimum a fuel pump booster. To be safe an in tank pump and system upgrade should be done when going over 600 rwhp.

If you had a prof tune for say 8 psi then it would be fine at 6psi because the MAF would correct for it. However if you had a tune for say 12 psi and then only made 6, it would be super rich and yes a hand held with 2 tunes can accomplish your goal. If the question was can you adjust boost on the fly, yes with a turbo boost can be adjusted very easily and there are controllers that make it easy to go from 3 psi to 20 psi and beyond with ease

As for installer - we are happy to hook you up with the right company in your area - we have a few

[Mcnhammer]

2010 CGM SS M6
Upgrades:
Procharger S/C (8 lbs. boost / 60# injectors)
Aquamist methanol injection
American racing LT headers w/mids
Magnaflow axle back
Meziere electric water pump

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Mcnhammer

2010 CGM SS M6
Upgrades:
Procharger S/C (8 lbs. boost / 60# injectors)
Aquamist methanol injection
American racing LT headers w/mids
Magnaflow axle back
Meziere electric water pump

I love the Procharger, I just don't like the air filter sucking the hot air like that

[bi11ymc]

525 RWHP/490 RWTQ - L99 with Magnuson TVS2300 (6 lbs, 3.8"), Comp Cams (219/223 115+3)

[Detoxx03]

I love the look of the Maggie but i'm not impressed with their performance

[cammedcamaro]

Jusy wanted to say great thread and lots of good info. I have an Edlbrock SC and love it. Great for low end torque. I have 625 RWHP.

[sscamaro]

I haven't seen anybody with the Edelbrock E-Force S/C post any results on here. Before installing the E-Force S/C I had Kooks 1 7/8" LT headers, Ported intake, LMR CAI and dyno tune. It put down 414/rwhp and 406/rwtq. After installing the E-Force S/C( minus the ported intake) adding a Roto-Fab CAI and getting a dyno tune by Jeremy Formato it put down 546/rwhp and 522/rwtq with 6# of boost.

[Granatelli]

That sounds about right - congrats

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

Lots of people are torn as both methods offer a great power increase. It just comes down to what you really want vs. what you can afford. The twin turbo set ups are at the top of the food chain and of all the twin turbo kits out there the Granatelli/TTi system offers the most power with superior fit and finish. We are talking about “real” production style kits. You can always find companies that promise the world with no ability to deliver. I have exhausted my opinion as to why I feel the turbo is the best choice – But basically it makes the most power (or should I say, it has the ability to make mega power and always superior torque).

Our turbos are mounted directly off the exhaust manifolds – Here are a few pics:




The black plate you see is spaced down .75” This allows cools air to vent over the turbos – it is natural airflow and therefore has the same cooling effect as it would on a stock application.. (We do not offer the muffler turbo style kits – they have tremendous turbo lag. As an example we dyno’d an STS kit the other day and at 3800 it had only reached 3psi on its way to 7 at 6000 rpm – that is just not right)

Turbo Lag – As defined lag is the delay or time it takes for positive pressure to reach the intake after going WOT (wide open throttle). In the past, turbos would have a lag, meaning it would take more time for a turbocharger to get positive pressure than say a roots type blower. What they don’t tell you is it takes a ton of power to drive the blower so it is all a trade off – fast forward 20 year later and it still take a ton of power to drive the blower but turbos have come a long way and the way they work now, TWINS have virtually no lag. That means when you step on it – you see positive pressure in the manifold. Search any Granatelli and Hellion customer on this board – NO ONE complains about lack of boost right off idle. – Therefore LAG is a non issue with Twins – single turbos may have a small amount but nothing to worry about.

If you see power drop off in the graphs it is because we are all turning the dyno of at that point. I can tell you for sure our turbo kit will just keep making power until you blower the engine up – it does not give up at any RPM – the camshaft may drop off but ….. it will pull until you lift – I think the dyno graph are confusing you – if you are comparing our TT kit to say a Maggie – the Maggie may have more torque below 2000 rpm but after that – we win hands down all the way to 10,000 if you have the balls to go that high

You do not need to forge the internals if you plan to stay below 575 to the tires

Something just came up – I hope to complete this tonight – see ya

Is this a skid pad for the Camaro?

[Granatelli]

A few of the other kit guys turbos hang so low, plus they mount their filter down there as well. In an effort to show people how our kit does not drag the turbo we put a plate across the bottom and people just started expecting it - so in short yes it is cover that we include with the kit - however - you do not need it as our turbos sit about 1.75" above the frame rail plus our filtering system draw cool filtered air from both sides of the nose - not under the car

[LightsoutSS]

Granatelli vs. Hellion?

[calbert1999]

The skid plate is a great idea with or without turbos. I'm always bumping the flang's connected to my LT headers attached at the bottom of my vehicle, on shitty roads or messed up speed bumps.
Does it require drilling to attach?

[Roto-fab 1]

Originally Posted by sscamaro

I haven't seen anybody with the Edelbrock E-Force S/C post any results on here. Before installing the E-Force S/C I had Kooks 1 7/8" LT headers, Ported intake, LMR CAI and dyno tune. It put down 414/rwhp and 406/rwtq. After installing the E-Force S/C( minus the ported intake) adding a Roto-Fab CAI and getting a dyno tune by Jeremy Formato it put down 546/rwhp and 522/rwtq with 6# of boost.

Congrats on the numbers! It sounds like you ended up with a fun ride. We appreciate you using our intake as part of the build too.

[2010 SS RS]

I saw someone wanted an Edelbrock E Force write up so here mine is.
Edelbrock E Force,
forged bottom end
Cam
Stroked
Well you get the point and can see detail in my signature.
I love the smooth power and torque provided by the E Force. Limit is reached fairly quickly with a 2.75 pulley and that is as small as you can go. No belt slip if you use the Gatorback belt that is recommended by Edelbrock. And it is only a 6 rib belt. Nice look and good low IAT numbers. 115 yesterday under load and fairly hard driving with a lot of boost. Of course I am on E85 so numbers might be higher on pump fuel. Injectors supplied are undersized if you are going for bigger numbers but whose are not...

[Z_Rocks]

Originally Posted by 2010 SS RS

I saw someone wanted an Edelbrock E Force write up so here mine is.
Edelbrock E Force,
forged bottom end
Cam
Stroked
Well you get the point and can see detail in my signature.
I love the smooth power and torque provided by the E Force. Limit is reached fairly quickly with a 2.75 pulley and that is as small as you can go. No belt slip if you use the Gatorback belt that is recommended by Edelbrock. And it is only a 6 rib belt. Nice look and good low IAT numbers. 115 yesterday under load and fairly hard driving with a lot of boost. Of course I am on E85 so numbers might be higher on pump fuel. Injectors supplied are undersized if you are going for bigger numbers but whose are not...

Damn boy, how can you get any traction with so much TQ right off the bat?
I love TQ, but so early can hold you down by spinning your wheels off.

But awesome results if you control your right foot.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by 2010 SS RS

I saw someone wanted an Edelbrock E Force write up so here mine is.
Edelbrock E Force,
forged bottom end
Cam
Stroked
Well you get the point and can see detail in my signature.
I love the smooth power and torque provided by the E Force. Limit is reached fairly quickly with a 2.75 pulley and that is as small as you can go. No belt slip if you use the Gatorback belt that is recommended by Edelbrock. And it is only a 6 rib belt. Nice look and good low IAT numbers. 115 yesterday under load and fairly hard driving with a lot of boost. Of course I am on E85 so numbers might be higher on pump fuel. Injectors supplied are undersized if you are going for bigger numbers but whose are not...

Those are really high numbers. I think most folks are getting about 670rwhp. with a Maggie perhaps some meth will get higher #'s, with about 9psi.
How, much boost are you using surely above 9psi. and how much hp's do you think are attributed to stroking the engine, and do you also have ported heads?

[cammedcamaro]

Originally Posted by 2010 SS RS

I saw someone wanted an Edelbrock E Force write up so here mine is.
Edelbrock E Force,
forged bottom end
Cam
Stroked
Well you get the point and can see detail in my signature.
I love the smooth power and torque provided by the E Force. Limit is reached fairly quickly with a 2.75 pulley and that is as small as you can go. No belt slip if you use the Gatorback belt that is recommended by Edelbrock. And it is only a 6 rib belt. Nice look and good low IAT numbers. 115 yesterday under load and fairly hard driving with a lot of boost. Of course I am on E85 so numbers might be higher on pump fuel. Injectors supplied are undersized if you are going for bigger numbers but whose are not...

Very Nice! And I thought I had a lot of HP. Congrats!

[calbert1999]

Awwwhhhh..... I just realized your engine is 418ci. stroked. That' explains it. I expect close to 600rwhp., even with a blower CAM, no way in hell gonna' acheive 700+rwhp. with safe boost levels on a stock case.

[2010 SS RS]

Originally Posted by Z_Rocks

Damn boy, how can you get any traction with so much TQ right off the bat?
I love TQ, but so early can hold you down by spinning your wheels off.

But awesome results if you control your right foot.

Yeah, it is kind of tricky but a blast to drive. Right now I am on stock PZero tires on the streets and temps are dropping pretty low. Tonight it was 23 degrees out so I have to be pretty careful. I have not really hit it at the track yet. However, I am pretty sure my Drag radials will hook up as I ran all last season at 578 rwhp and 581 lbs of torque. I probably will move up to 315 Drag radials next season but will still run existing ones at C5Fest in AZ. The change to the Spec Super Twin will be very helpful as well as I now have a real feel to the clutch and can slip it one heck of a lot better than the stock one. But on a positive note. I can pretty much punch it while rolling and light em up with the stocks in 5 of the 6 gears...lol

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Those are really high numbers. I think most folks are getting about 670rwhp. with a Maggie perhaps some meth will get higher #'s, with about 9psi.
How, much boost are you using surely above 9psi. and how much hp's do you think are attributed to stroking the engine, and do you also have ported heads?

No I am at 9lbs but am maxed out with the edelbrock with the smallest pulley available 2.75. Not as much boost as I would have got without stroked to a 6.9liter and the cam causes less boost. I am converted to E85 instead of meth as it is readily available out here in Colorado. Pretty much an identical build as mine on pump fuel dyno'd at 689rwhp and 705 torque so the E85 is def adding to the numbers.

Originally Posted by cammedcamaro

Very Nice! And I thought I had a lot of HP. Congrats!

Thanks so much...I am pretty pleased as well.

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Awwwhhhh..... I just realized your engine is 418ci. stroked. That' explains it. I expect close to 600rwhp., even with a blower CAM, no way in hell gonna' acheive 700+rwhp. with safe boost levels on a stock case.

The stoker added a good amount low rpm torque. But overall not huge amounts of hp and torque top end numbers. I did keep my compression around 10.07 to 1 but still lowered the compression from stock.....just not as low as some of the old school builds would be. This was based primarily on discussions with several ls3 builders and race teams. In fact, our original plan was to have our compression around 10.3 to 1 but I was not able to use thinner head gaskets as the heads are zero clearance heads and I already had my push rods purchased. So we used ZR1 head gaskets and ended up with less compression.

[calbert1999]

Have you done anything to the stock suspension, bushings, springs, braces (chassis / struts)? I have all Hotchkis systems in place now, but haven't done any bushings yet, thinking Phadt to control wheel hop and traction.

[2010 SS RS]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Have you done anything to the stock suspension, bushings, springs, braces (chassis / struts)? I have all Hotchkis systems in place now, but haven't done any bushings yet, thinking Phadt to control wheel hop and traction.

Nope but that is this winters project. Probably end up going pfadt mainly cause they are in Utah and I might go there and have them install and train me how to adjust for max benefit. Like the hotchkis stuff though a lot.

[calbert1999]

Yeah. I really like Hotchkis, it would have been nice if they had bushing kits too. However, sometimes good to mix / match so your not stuck with one vendor. So, I have Hotchkis springs, sway bars, chassis / strut braces, and end-links, will go with Phadt for all their bushings. Like Pedders too but their way too complicated with all the varying versions of their products.
Problem for me is if I were close to these vendors I could just go by and say hello as in your case, for me they're not located anywhere in Canada, so have to do research, discuss with installer and take a chance.
I will tell you though, the Hotchkis kit made a huge difference until I got the new CAM and got an additional 50-60rwhps., and then wheels spinning, hops are occassiion but want to reduce any chances of hopping considering I know this creates potential to break things.