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Old 11-30-2010, 05:28 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granatelli View Post
Have you seen the new stuff GMS came out with as it relates to rear suspension parts

So, if I were to take a guess I'd say these are aftermarket rear control arms that replace the stock one that looks like it came from a piece of sheet metal.
However, why two different styles?
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:01 PM   #138
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So, if I were to take a guess I'd say these are aftermarket rear control arms that replace the stock one that looks like it came from a piece of sheet metal.
However, why two different styles?
Top is stock

Middle is Chrome moly with forged ends

Bottom is Billet
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:24 PM   #139
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How practical are exhaust cutouts with a TT setup?
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:59 PM   #140
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Brian -

Please don't get me wrong - I am torn between multiple lovers here. You and the world know how I feel about the Novi-2000. I think the centrifugal certainly has its place in the market - hell I spent what seems like my entire life pushing and talking about centrifugals. When I sold Paxton - I kept the Novi blowers on all my cars and boat with the exception on my 1997 Tahoe which was my first attempt since the 1982 Camaro at Turbo charging. With a very wimpy Turbonetics 60-1 turbo. I made 10hp more then the Novi at 6psi and 112 ft/lbs more. At 10psi the Novi was making 38hp more then the baby turbo (2.5" inlet on turbo vs 4.00" inlet on Novi-2000) but the turbo still managed 104ft/lbs more. So as a truck owner towing a boat - The turbo was king. At the drag strip - you can image what happened.

As any drag racer on the planet if they would trade 38hp for 100 ft/lbs. - Anyone with any experience knows 100ft/lbs in barge like SUV trumps 40 hp every time.

Look at the turbo system on the orange car a few posts back, it packages as nice as any centrifugal kit I have seen so far for the Camaro. But knowing what I know and seeing what the dyno results are



8psi - 484hp / 421ft/lbs - Centrifugal
7psi - 560hp / 606ft/lbs - Turbo

Hard to argue with +76hp & +185ft/lbs of the turbo system

Personally since I never drive a car past 5k miles I would run the turbo if these were my only 2 choices. However if this was my true daily driver and only car - it would be hard to argue that the Vortech system is not the safer of the 2. I would love to be proven wrong but I think hanging a huge ass turbo in that location is definitely a MEGA heater and will take it toll on the surrounding areas - so for that reason I agree the Centrifugal is a great choice.

However - mounting twin smaller 68mm turbos down low like these:

http://www.gmsvideos.com/featured_la...php?reset=true

is a totally different story - There is no heat issues because the air running under the car more then makes up for it - Even a centrifugal or screw blower on top of the motor adds heat - No where near what the turbo does but still MORE HEAT.

Now to address the specifics of the 1000's of happy 350Z and G35 customers and quite a few 4.0L Mustang owners. Have they had a chance to compare to a turbo in the same application?

Listen to the Vortech You tube video and the GMS video back to back - you can hear how quick the turbo motor "ramps” the torque number down low on the centrifugal can't come close to the turbo.

I am not saying the centrifugal is a bad choice - I am saying a turbo on a v6 (that already is giving up bottom end) is a better choice when it comes to torque and torque moves the car - AND the centrifugal does not add noticeable torque down low where the v6 needs it

torque is king when u have a camaro or G8 thats 4000 lbs. My old stock with dod l76 made 616whp at 5000 rpm and 649 wtq at 3700 rpm on 10 psi on pump gas. Cant beat that to get a tank rolling!!!! STS 60-1 twins....
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:59 PM   #141
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How practical are exhaust cutouts with a TT setup?
I'd say very practical, if there are placed close to the release of the turbos. As long as there is no back pressure on the release side, those turbos will spin freely and much quicker and response is much faster.

To me, the cutouts, specially the good ones like NoWeeds.net when connected to stock exhaust, you get the best of both worlds. In normal driving and cursing, it's quiet and no drone like you get from open exhaust and as soon as you want to have fun, click a switch and you get 3" open exhaust at your finger tips.

Just be sure the tune is made for it, sine you get the boost much earlier than stock and you should have fuel much earlier too.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:24 PM   #142
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How practical are exhaust cutouts with a TT setup?
Turbo are like mufflers anyway - exh cut outs would help marginally for performance
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:26 PM   #143
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torque is king when u have a camaro or G8 thats 4000 lbs. My old stock with dod l76 made 616whp at 5000 rpm and 649 wtq at 3700 rpm on 10 psi on pump gas. Cant beat that to get a tank rolling!!!! STS 60-1 twins....
Torque is ALWAYS KING

STS is nice but will always lag compared to the turbs mounted off the manifolds up front

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Old 01-14-2011, 12:29 AM   #144
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Just had my 2010 LS3 dynotuned after installing a Maggie 2300 last week. I have the Maggie, K&N CAI and Stainless Works Cat-Back and registered 490tq and 513hp on a conservative tune. Running stock pulley on SC, the boost measured 8+ peak.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:58 AM   #145
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Here is the latest Dyno for my car.. TVS2300, Kooks Headers, Stage II Blower Cam, ADM Street Cold Air Intake, 3.70 Gears, Innovators West 8-Rib Pulley System with 3.4 Blower Pulley and ADM Custom Dyno Tune.

ADM Performance ROCKS !!
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:23 PM   #146
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Decided. Going with the D-1SC procharger. Estimating I'll make very close to 660rwhp. and close to 550tq. with very moderate and safe 6psi. of boost.
Cleaner, easier install (don't have to remove stock intake or modify engine cover), air-to-air intercooled, reduced detonation, no meth needed and much easier on the engine than higher boost numbers to achieve the same goals.
Can always increase boost with upgraded internals, and Procharger has a great warranty @3yrs. and a fabulous upgrade program to go from the lower end P-1, to the D-1SC or even the F-1 series.
Will start with the Stage II, with D-1SC upgrade, 12rib. serpentine, and custom race valve, with the massive intercooler, and the ADM dual-pump fuel kit.
Seen the HO system P-1 on an SS @6psi. make 640rwhp / 550lbtq. with very moderate tune, very safe, no BAP, no fuel, no meth, no detonation and sounds amazing.
Can't beat those options.
Have to admit though the Maggie looks cool, and the turbos look cool'er with all the complicated tubing.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:15 PM   #147
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Congrats on your choice but complicated tubing of a turbo? Have you seen the plumbing that goes into an intercooled centrifugal? It is the same as any other turbo or centrifugal running air to air intercooling with forced induction.

Plus to make 660 at only 6psi you will have to add headers and a not so mild tune. 6 psi is a 40% increase of stock. Assuming 100% efficiency at stock motor with headers that makes 410 to the tires will make 590. I agree you can get to 660 but that will not be a mild tune - it will be good pump gas and aggressive timing. No question the procharger can make big power over the Magnuson but you give up on torque down low and that is what all the maggie guys keep holding on too. Why not it is a wonderful thing
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Old 01-18-2011, 11:00 PM   #148
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Quote:
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Congrats on your choice but complicated tubing of a turbo? Have you seen the plumbing that goes into an intercooled centrifugal? It is the same as any other turbo or centrifugal running air to air intercooling with forced induction.

Plus to make 660 at only 6psi you will have to add headers and a not so mild tune. 6 psi is a 40% increase of stock. Assuming 100% efficiency at stock motor with headers that makes 410 to the tires will make 590. I agree you can get to 660 but that will not be a mild tune - it will be good pump gas and aggressive timing. No question the procharger can make big power over the Magnuson but you give up on torque down low and that is what all the maggie guys keep holding on too. Why not it is a wonderful thing
My decision is based on a setup I've already seen and the piping doesn't look complicated at all.
My installer has done quite a few Maggies, Turbos, Meth, NO and ProCharger too. So, I have to take their experiences into consideration as well. When making my decision the cool factor and power gains are always part of the process, however the best decision for my engine has to take precedence, I think the ProCharger is the safest, most powerfull way to go.
My understanding is to stay away from knock sensors as much as possible, and seems like ProCharger behave really well in that area. Might have something to do with the intercooling system.
There is an intake to the SC, and the boost flows to the intercooler, and from the intercooler to the TB, and a few other minor connections for run-off and cooling, and it's all in front of the the rad. Pretty simply to do except for removal of the front fender, but that needs to be done for any SC that has a cooling system anyway,
The part I'm concerned about most is all the work for the dual-pump system. Practically, taking the whole back end apart to get to the gas tank.
As for the rest I'm already setup with headers, exhaust and booster cam. So, making the 660rwhp. with about 500lbtq. low down should be enough. I haven't seen too many Maggie setups make much more than that down low without forged internals, and stroked engines. But, I do admit they do hold the TQ higher up. I guess there's always a bit of a trade off regardless of the system. But, if I wanted to I could always do like the maggie dudes, and increase the boost to 8-10psi., but I don't want to push it for a few extra lbs. of torque.
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Old 01-18-2011, 11:47 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
My decision is based on a setup I've already seen and the piping doesn't look complicated at all.
My installer has done quite a few Maggies, Turbos, Meth, NO and ProCharger too. So, I have to take their experiences into consideration as well. When making my decision the cool factor and power gains are always part of the process, however the best decision for my engine has to take precedence, I think the ProCharger is the safest, most powerfull way to go.
My understanding is to stay away from knock sensors as much as possible, and seems like ProCharger behave really well in that area. Might have something to do with the intercooling system.
There is an intake to the SC, and the boost flows to the intercooler, and from the intercooler to the TB, and a few other minor connections for run-off and cooling, and it's all in front of the the rad. Pretty simply to do except for removal of the front fender, but that needs to be done for any SC that has a cooling system anyway,
The part I'm concerned about most is all the work for the dual-pump system. Practically, taking the whole back end apart to get to the gas tank.
As for the rest I'm already setup with headers, exhaust and booster cam. So, making the 660rwhp. with about 500lbtq. low down should be enough. I haven't seen too many Maggie setups make much more than that down low without forged internals, and stroked engines. But, I do admit they do hold the TQ higher up. I guess there's always a bit of a trade off regardless of the system. But, if I wanted to I could always do like the maggie dudes, and increase the boost to 8-10psi., but I don't want to push it for a few extra lbs. of torque.
Bro,

Sounds like you will end up with a mean car... A good friend of mine, Kyle, has a Procharger, and it is sic... He was the big dog in our area for a long time with at or just over 700 HP. He has a LSx 427 after he popped his LS-3...

I'm trying to topple him from the BIG DOG throne... lol, actually he is an awesome person and I have no issues with whom is the biggest or has the most power... I am fortunate that in this area, as this site shows in most parts of the continent, there are some amazing people involved with this car...

Good Luck with your build, and start a build thread for us to follow...
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:58 PM   #150
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My decision is based on a setup I've already seen and the piping doesn't look complicated at all.
My installer has done quite a few Maggies, Turbos, Meth, NO and ProCharger too. So, I have to take their experiences into consideration as well. When making my decision the cool factor and power gains are always part of the process, however the best decision for my engine has to take precedence, I think the ProCharger is the safest, most powerful way to go.
My understanding is to stay away from knock sensors as much as possible, and seems like ProCharger behave really well in that area. Might have something to do with the intercooling system.
There is an intake to the SC, and the boost flows to the intercooler, and from the intercooler to the TB, and a few other minor connections for run-off and cooling, and it's all in front of the the rad. Pretty simply to do except for removal of the front fender, but that needs to be done for any SC that has a cooling system anyway,
The part I'm concerned about most is all the work for the dual-pump system. Practically, taking the whole back end apart to get to the gas tank.
As for the rest I'm already setup with headers, exhaust and booster cam. So, making the 660rwhp. with about 500lbtq. Low down should be enough. I haven't seen too many Maggie setups make much more than that down low without forged internals, and stroked engines. But, I do admit they do hold the TQ higher up. I guess there's always a bit of a trade off regardless of the system. But, if I wanted to I could always do like the maggie dudes, and increase the boost to 8-10psi., but I don't want to push it for a few extra lbs. of torque.
Well…Complicated is a relative term. I re-read my post and it sound like I came off like a jerk. I did not mean to convey that tone so oops sorry. Now on to your comments

No question a centrifugal makes the least amount of power down low so for that reason – YES it I safe. However, the Procharger takes power off the crank and puts added stress on the nose of the crank – that is why they tell you to “pin” the nose of the crank pulley when doing the install. It stops the blower from ripping the pulley off the crank like unscrewing a nut from a bolt or reverse rotating a cap off a beer bottle. Also the Procharger will move a ton of air and make HUGE power in the latter part of the RPM range so caution should always be taken.

When you say the MOST POWERFULL?? - I mean a turbo will always make the most power per lb of boost - Hands down

As for Knock sensors and intercooling – the coolest air possible is always the best way to go but again Centrifugals are not better than turbos in that department either – that is based on the intercooler – So that would be a toss up.

There is no front fender removal required on the twin turbo install – at least not on any of the systems I have seen

As for torque – the Maggie will make way more down low and the Procharger will carry it higher


You made a great choice either way
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:14 AM   #151
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Ok so it has taken me about two hours to read through this whole thread! With that being said there is a wealth of information to be had and great arguments for either side. My only problem is that since I purchased my car almost a year ago, I have had my heart set on a twin turbo set up. Specifically the Granatelli or the Hellion... But the only problem is that through the research I have done you cannot use either of these systems with long tube headers. I hope that I am correct with this. I want to have a cam package, long tube headers and a twin turbo set up. Specifically Stainless Works long tubes to match my exhaust system. Through my research the only twin turbo that will work with this is the STS system. I am not sold on this system due to location and it doesn't appear to offer the same amount of horse power as the other two systems mentioned. With this being said is there a way or package that will allow me to run long tube headers with the Granatelli or Hellion? If not am I going to be stuck with the super charger with the direction I am wanting to go with my car??? Any imput for you guys would be greatly appreciated!
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:36 PM   #152
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Bro,

Sounds like you will end up with a mean car... A good friend of mine, Kyle, has a Procharger, and it is sic... He was the big dog in our area for a long time with at or just over 700 HP. He has a LSx 427 after he popped his LS-3...

I'm trying to topple him from the BIG DOG throne... lol, actually he is an awesome person and I have no issues with whom is the biggest or has the most power... I am fortunate that in this area, as this site shows in most parts of the continent, there are some amazing people involved with this car...

Good Luck with your build, and start a build thread for us to follow...
Thanks, man. I really want to start a build thread, but I only have bits and pieces of pics right now. Have to spend more time with my performance installer to get a good collection of pics that will show beginning to end.

Well, I guess I could lay out all the stock parts on the ground and take some pics of that stuff too. LOL

I agree; Really, cool car, everybody loves it and the more work I get done on it the more amazing it is to drive. Next step will be to take some driving lessons to re-learn how to drive this beast.

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Well…Complicated is a relative term. I re-read my post and it sound like I came off like a jerk. I did not mean to convey that tone so oops sorry. Now on to your comments

No question a centrifugal makes the least amount of power down low so for that reason – YES it I safe. However, the Procharger takes power off the crank and puts added stress on the nose of the crank – that is why they tell you to “pin” the nose of the crank pulley when doing the install. It stops the blower from ripping the pulley off the crank like unscrewing a nut from a bolt or reverse rotating a cap off a beer bottle. Also the Procharger will move a ton of air and make HUGE power in the latter part of the RPM range so caution should always be taken.

When you say the MOST POWERFULL?? - I mean a turbo will always make the most power per lb of boost - Hands down

As for Knock sensors and intercooling – the coolest air possible is always the best way to go but again Centrifugals are not better than turbos in that department either – that is based on the intercooler – So that would be a toss up.

There is no front fender removal required on the twin turbo install – at least not on any of the systems I have seen

As for torque – the Maggie will make way more down low and the Procharger will carry it higher

You made a great choice either way
No worries. I really appreciate vendor opinions, otherwise I wouldn't be able to make any educated decisions I have to trust my performance installer, my research, feedback I get from experienced folks like yourself, and throw in my goals to come up with what I believe is going to be the right choice for me.

If I had not done the work I've done to this point I may have gone with turbos, but I'd be at a huge loss at this point with my wicked MBRP exhaust, and headers. I really like those rear turbo setups where they replace the mufflers. That would have been my system of choice.

With a turbo setup. I would have done 3" straight pipe muffler delete, diverters (if possible), and those rear turbos. Overall probably would have saved a bunch of cash going that route.

In any case thanks for stepping up to the plate and providing expert advice, very much appreciated.


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Ok so I completely just fried my mind reading all this info. I wanted a turbo system so bad but now I've narrowed it down to a SC but which one?

Twin-screw Superchargers or Centrifugal Superchargers any suggestions? Also which company is best between the both? So Fried I feel like a mustang that just got its but whooped by an SS
I'm with you 100%. My mind was made up; I thought I was giong to throw on a TVS2300 roots style SC just like everyone else, and then I read this article, did hours of research, and had numerous discussions with my performance installer.

All, I can say is this; If you want to have your tires spinning when the light turns greeen, and everyone else is gone ahead of you then get a roots, if you want really high HP gains and a even smooth stream of boost and power throughout the power band, get a centrifugal (ProCharger). With a ProCharger you won't need a meth kit, you won't need a light to tell you the meth is running out, you won't have to drill holes in your trunk for the meth tank, you won't have to run tubes from the trunk to the enging, you won't have to be concerned your meth pump is going to fry and leave you worrying about your engine detonating.

My installer built numerous Camaros' v8, M6's with the TVS2300, and meth (you'll need a meth kit for safety reasons), and barely make 570-580rwhp. @ 8 - 9psi. of boost, and knock sensors had to constantly adjust timing to compensate for the high temps (this can cause detonation). And then to see un-biased results of the centri system, they installed the older, smaller, ProCharger P-1SC-1 HO, and smaller air-to-air intercooler system on the same vehicle and got a whopping 640rwhp. @ 6psi. of boost (no meth required due to the air-to-air, intercooler), no knock sensors adjusting timing. This was done in the same environment, using same fans, same env. temps, same dyno.

So, what do you think my decision is now? Sorry ol'skool roots kit. No TVS2300 for me, no meth., no knock sensor BS, no heavy SC, no 1:1 ratio cog belt to make it sound decent, no un-necessary tires spinning burnnig up my Pirellis, no concerns my engine is going to blow when I run out of meth. on a vacation geteaway. ProCharger D-1SC Stage II, here I come. Wooo..... hooo......
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Old 02-18-2011, 07:35 PM   #153
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With 810 hp and the roots style Maggie.....I blew every car off the line....not sure why others have their tires spinning....the key is having a good tire, and a good tune.......Procharger vs Maggie or KB....its not even remotely close....its not the Procharger.
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