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Old 08-25-2009, 05:21 PM   #51
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I guess what I ment was.. from a technical point of view. I am very analytically minded so I like to know major details of stuff. (possibly why im in the IT business lol)
Pulling the fuse will actually discharge the ECM? Thus making it a blank and have to re-learn.. that sound correct? That's what I am to assume after reading everything.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:25 PM   #52
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I guess what I ment was.. from a technical point of view. I am very analytically minded so I like to know major details of stuff. (possibly why im in the IT business lol)
Pulling the fuse will actually discharge the ECM? Thus making it a blank and have to re-learn.. that sound correct? That's what I am to assume after reading everything.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:26 PM   #53
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I'll try it on my LS3 tonight! With my pants on of course...

Dude your one funny person. That post of you in your garage had me laughing all day at work the following day. Guys at work thought i was on drugs or something laughing all day
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:30 PM   #54
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Man... I think also Dealers should be warned to NOT put regular in the V8's period! Really good find.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:32 PM   #55
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.......


Great pic', and thanks.

.............
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:36 PM   #56
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I have no problems with my l99 since i had the procharger and arh installed. Getting 476whp and i don't care about the warranty.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:46 PM   #57
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paste your high tables into your low table, and never loan out your car when its almost out of gas.

is this a good time to poke fun at the 87 octane lovers that may be jumping on the "my L99 is slow" bandwagon!
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:49 PM   #58
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Man... I think also Dealers should be warned to NOT put regular in the V8's period! Really good find.
I totally agree. I think all dealers expecting camaro's to arrive should definitely get on the same page with this info. I'm going to make sure my dealer reads and understands this
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:50 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ject View Post
I guess what I ment was.. from a technical point of view. I am very analytically minded so I like to know major details of stuff. (possibly why im in the IT business lol)
Pulling the fuse will actually discharge the ECM? Thus making it a blank and have to re-learn.. that sound correct? That's what I am to assume after reading everything.
No. I think it sets the computer to factory defaults that were changed with the low octane gas.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:52 PM   #60
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I already sent a note to my dealer saying IF they fill it, use the maximum possible grade! Else, I said don't fill it...Too bad here in CA we don't get better than 91 octane :(
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:14 PM   #61
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Pedders has a SS and drove it about 1500 miles. We had a new style ProCharger installed on it. However, the motor is missing about 25hp before and after the install. Not really sure if the average person would even feel 25hp, but it is missing. Software, of coarse was updated. We will be doing long tubes, complete exhaust, and an electric waterpump with a custom tune. Hopefully we will be able to find the 20-25hp loss.

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Old 08-25-2009, 06:16 PM   #62
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My LS3 had a full tank of 87 in it from the dealer but I've been running 93 since then. I just pulled the fuses so we will see if it helps in 3 or 4 hours.
The car has been 8.72@85.03 mph in the 1/8 so if this helps it sholud be a bad mofo!
Awaiting your results.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:31 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ject View Post
I guess what I ment was.. from a technical point of view. I am very analytically minded so I like to know major details of stuff. (possibly why im in the IT business lol)
Pulling the fuse will actually discharge the ECM? Thus making it a blank and have to re-learn.. that sound correct? That's what I am to assume after reading everything.
This is from another thread, and I posted it here but I think people are skipping over this since it's in a quote block, so I'll just paste it below:

Credit to wh0rsep0wer:
I tuned in HPTuners on my LS1 and if it is the same for an L99/LS3, this is what happens when you pull the fuses:

There are two tables values used for spark timing - high octane table and low octane table. If you use 93 octane from day one, your computer is using spark timing from the high octane table. If you got a tank of 87 from the dealer, the engine experienced premature detonation and the knock sensors went crazy, and told the computer to use the low octane timing table. What is supposed to happen is after a while of not seeing detonation from the knock sensors, the computer (ECU)tries the high octane spark timing table again. (This doesn't appear to be happening - THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!!!).

The values in the high octane and low octane tables are NON-VOLATILE MEMORY (meaning they are there even if you lose power -like when you do the fuse pull). These tables are usually adjusted when you get a custom tune, and burned into the non-volatile memory. So therefore if you get a custom tune YOU WILL NOT LOSE THESE "TUNED" VALUES with the fuse pull.

What WILL happen with the fuse pull is your volatile memory will be reset. This includes long term + short term fuel trims, knock retard, etc... but what is important in this case is the little parameter that determines which spark table to use will reset...meaning if you were running from the low octane tables before (safe + slow mode), after the fuse pull it will force the computer to try the high octane table again (super giggle fun happy rockin' mode).

However it is important to note that you shouldn't need to try the fuse pull if you've only used high octane gas since getting a custom tune, because burning the tune to the ECU resets all volatile memory. This is why it will go through the idle re-learn process and may run a little weird for the first 20 minutes or so after burning a tune or pulling the fuses.

Pulling the fuses is no different from recovering from a dead battery. The only reason I could see that it would be a problem to pull the fuses is if GM wanted to run diagnostics on the cars with the problem and needed to see the volatile values.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:34 PM   #64
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Damn this is good stuff PQ... Congrats to everyone with fast cars now.

Maybe if you had let your dealer keep the old wheels and tires he would have put 93 in the tank...

Sooooo what would happen to someone with a tune... would it wipe out everything. Could be a good fix if you didn't want to blow your warranty and needed work done.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:42 PM   #65
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I already knew about this trick, from what I understand this has been a long standing big secret about cars with computers. I tried this on my avalanche......unhook the battery(either post doesn't matter) turn the ignition key on and let it sit for at least an hour, turn the ignition back off, hook the battery back up and Whala! it actually works. Like any computer it has capacitors that hold a charge like that little lithium button battery you find on a mother board of a PC, whe the car battery is unhooked the computer has residual energy stored up, by turning on the ignition it helps dischsrge the computer and thus resetting the learning cycle that the computer has to go through.
Another thing to note that is very important, if you are to ever need to jump start someones car with yours, then make sure that your car is NOT on or running!, make sure the keys are out of the ignition! like any computer the one in your car can can collect information from the other car and whatever may be wrong with that car will be misconstrued as a problem with your car. If their car wont start straight from your battery then there is a whole lot more wrong with their car than just a bad battery.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:51 PM   #66
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Maybe if you had let your dealer keep the old wheels and tires he would have put 93 in the tank...
I spit coffee.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:51 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDustiNN View Post
This is from another thread, and I posted it here but I think people are skipping over this since it's in a quote block, so I'll just paste it below:

Credit to wh0rsep0wer:
I tuned in HPTuners on my LS1 and if it is the same for an L99/LS3, this is what happens when you pull the fuses:

There are two tables values used for spark timing - high octane table and low octane table. If you use 93 octane from day one, your computer is using spark timing from the high octane table. If you got a tank of 87 from the dealer, the engine experienced premature detonation and the knock sensors went crazy, and told the computer to use the low octane timing table. What is supposed to happen is after a while of not seeing detonation from the knock sensors, the computer (ECU)tries the high octane spark timing table again. (This doesn't appear to be happening - THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!!!).

The values in the high octane and low octane tables are NON-VOLATILE MEMORY (meaning they are there even if you lose power -like when you do the fuse pull). These tables are usually adjusted when you get a custom tune, and burned into the non-volatile memory. So therefore if you get a custom tune YOU WILL NOT LOSE THESE "TUNED" VALUES with the fuse pull.

What WILL happen with the fuse pull is your volatile memory will be reset. This includes long term + short term fuel trims, knock retard, etc... but what is important in this case is the little parameter that determines which spark table to use will reset...meaning if you were running from the low octane tables before (safe + slow mode), after the fuse pull it will force the computer to try the high octane table again (super giggle fun happy rockin' mode).

However it is important to note that you shouldn't need to try the fuse pull if you've only used high octane gas since getting a custom tune, because burning the tune to the ECU resets all volatile memory. This is why it will go through the idle re-learn process and may run a little weird for the first 20 minutes or so after burning a tune or pulling the fuses.

Pulling the fuses is no different from recovering from a dead battery. The only reason I could see that it would be a problem to pull the fuses is if GM wanted to run diagnostics on the cars with the problem and needed to see the volatile values.
Thank you very much, that's exactly what kind of detail I was looking for!
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:55 PM   #68
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Well, let it sit for 1.5 hours, didn't notice any difference. Then again, wife was in the car with me... and she said it seemed faster. Either mine is operating as it should, or it needs to sit longer. Pulled em again for the rest of the night... we'll see in the mornin
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:24 PM   #69
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...
Another thing to note that is very important, if you are to ever need to jump start someones car with yours, then make sure that your car is NOT on or running!, make sure the keys are out of the ignition! like any computer the one in your car can can collect information from the other car and whatever may be wrong with that car will be misconstrued as a problem with your car. ....
I dont think your car's computer is going to read data from another car via jumper cables. It cant happen, the jumpers are carrying current, not data.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:27 PM   #70
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I have been following the discussion on this thread and am struggling quite a bit with some of the information. It is hard to argue with the results of the stop watch so it does appear that some of this is valid. I know a little bit about engines and engine controls strategy but do not have any experience with the GM controller on the L99 or LS3 engines. As I see this, both the L99 and LS3 engines should be susceptible to this problem. I have an LS3 and I know for a fact that my dim-witted dealer put 87 octane in the tank prior to deliver. They were not even aware of the fact that it called for 93 octane. I questioned them about it at delivery and advised them to read the manual.

Back to the issue of spark tables and "clearing" the ECM. Most current automotive controls systems employ what is called "Adaptive" control strategy. The primary purpose of this strategy is to allow the engine controller to learn and re-adjust as the engine/vehicle goes through its normal use/wear life cycle. This strategy is one of the ways that the auto companies insure their vehicles comply with the EPA & CARB emission useful life periods legislated for on-highway vehicles (no trivial task here). This is nothing really new. This has been around for a while. One point that I would like to make is that these systems general learn bi-directionally. Meaning, if an engine subsystem has a problem (like a plugged air filter), the system will adapt to that. Once a problem is corrected the system will adapt back. Yes, resetting adaptive parameters back to zero (or "clearing" the ECM) will generally speed that process up, but it will also occur on its own over the course of normal vehicle operation.

With respect to spark calibration tables and "93 Octane Tables" and "87 Octane Tables" I would be very surprised to find more than one spark calibration table in the control strategy. Again, I am no expert on the GM controller but I would be surprised if there are multiple tables. Generally there is one spark table that is calibrated across the speed and load range using the recommended fuel. I would think in this case with this being a performance vehicle the base spark calibration was done with high octane fuel. This engine is equipped with a knock sensor that is calibrated to detect and report occurrences of spark knock back to the engine controller. "Generally" engine control strategies use this knock sensor input data to "derate" or pull back spark advance from the base spark table. Calibrations are created to pull back the appropriate amount of spark for the input signal received from the knock sensor. There are probably other sensor based spark derate systems employed in addition to knock. Parameters such as intake air temperature and engine coolant temperature probably also have spark derates associated with them. If this is in fact the case, then none of this makes any sense, unless there are also other fueling corrections being made when the spark is being pulled out.

My point to this is do not assume what is being written hear is all correct. There is obviously something to this as again the stop watch doesn't lie. I would also submit that the folks at GM's CAC probably do not even fully understand how this all works. It would be really good to hear from a true GM expert (probably somebody from GM Powertrain calibration) to enlighten us all a little bit.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:29 PM   #71
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Well, let it sit for 1.5 hours, didn't notice any difference. Then again, wife was in the car with me... and she said it seemed faster. Either mine is operating as it should, or it needs to sit longer. Pulled em again for the rest of the night... we'll see in the mornin
If you're not seeing any improvement after pulling the fuses it's because your ECU was already using the high octane tables before the fuse pull...
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:42 PM   #72
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Here's a pic guys.


Attachment 48807
YES WE DID IT AND IT WORKS.WHY TRY TO OR ABOUT IT JUST DO IT THAT HOW I LOOK AT IT SO SO IF IT WORKS OR NOT THATS HOW IT IS.WE LIKE IT SO THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP

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Old 08-25-2009, 07:42 PM   #73
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If you're not seeing any improvement after pulling the fuses it's because your ECU was already using the high octane tables before the fuse pull...
Yeah, I understand that. But... my point is, my dealer put 87 in the car, I know he did because he told me. There is an underlying issue here on why some cars ECU is not readjusting to the different octane levels as they change. I've only put 93 into it since I picked it up.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:00 PM   #74
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Back to the issue of spark tables and "clearing" the ECM. Most current automotive controls systems employ what is called "Adaptive" control strategy. The primary purpose of this strategy is to allow the engine controller to learn and re-adjust as the engine/vehicle goes through its normal use/wear life cycle. This strategy is one of the ways that the auto companies insure their vehicles comply with the EPA & CARB emission useful life periods legislated for on-highway vehicles (no trivial task here). This is nothing really new. This has been around for a while. One point that I would like to make is that these systems general learn bi-directionally. Meaning, if an engine subsystem has a problem (like a plugged air filter), the system will adapt to that. Once a problem is corrected the system will adapt back. Yes, resetting adaptive parameters back to zero (or "clearing" the ECM) will generally speed that process up, but it will also occur on its own over the course of normal vehicle operation.
The adaptive corrections SHOULD occur. But in a large number of the L99's, it hasn't been occurring. I agree that pulling the fuses is kind of a "hack" but the only way to truly correct it is through a ECU update from GM which we have no control over. Pulling the fuse and getting it to work with minimal effort essentially takes the ECU to factory defaults...I don't see a problem with that, especially since you won't have to do it again as long as you keep premium gas in the tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueclyde View Post
With respect to spark calibration tables and "93 Octane Tables" and "87 Octane Tables" I would be very surprised to find more than one spark calibration table in the control strategy. Again, I am no expert on the GM controller but I would be surprised if there are multiple tables. Generally there is one spark table that is calibrated across the speed and load range using the recommended fuel. I would think in this case with this being a performance vehicle the base spark calibration was done with high octane fuel. This engine is equipped with a knock sensor that is calibrated to detect and report occurrences of spark knock back to the engine controller. "Generally" engine control strategies use this knock sensor input data to "derate" or pull back spark advance from the base spark table. Calibrations are created to pull back the appropriate amount of spark for the input signal received from the knock sensor. There are probably other sensor based spark derate systems employed in addition to knock. Parameters such as intake air temperature and engine coolant temperature probably also have spark derates associated with them. If this is in fact the case, then none of this makes any sense, unless there are also other fueling corrections being made when the spark is being pulled out.
There ARE two tables (See screenshots below). There is spark derating that occurs in real time to correct for knock in certain cells WITHOUT the ECU giving up and going directly to the low octane table...This is known as knock retard - and is an "adaptive" set of values...but if it sees TOO much knock from the knock sensors it reverts to the low octane table.

Think of the high octane and low octane tables as a coarse adjustment to "get it in the ballpark" and the knock retard as a fine tuning adjustment...

These screenshots are from a 2002 Z28 factory default configuration...1st screenshot is the Spark Advance Menu, 2nd screenshot is the High Octane Table, and 3rd screenshot is the Low Octane Table. Notice the BIG differences between the two tables occur at WOT (the values at the bottom of each screenshot) THAT IS WHY THIS WORKS!!!
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:08 PM   #75
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91 Octane in CA

Just curious...
I live in CA where the hightest octane gas I've seen is 91. I realize some states have 93. So I'm wondering where the L99's ECU makes the determination on which of the two memory tables to use? If I use 91 octane, will the ECU boot the high power table?
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