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Old 08-25-2009, 08:09 PM   #76
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Quote:
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Yeah, I understand that. But... my point is, my dealer put 87 in the car, I know he did because he told me. There is an underlying issue here on why some cars ECU is not readjusting to the different octane levels as they change. I've only put 93 into it since I picked it up.
Agreed ...like I said in my above post, this is a "hack" fix....It's up to GM to provide an update to REALLY solve the underlying problem.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:11 PM   #77
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The adaptive corrections SHOULD occur. But in a large number of the L99's, it hasn't been occurring. I agree that pulling the fuses is kind of a "hack" but the only way to truly correct it is through a ECU update from GM which we have no control over. Pulling the fuse and getting it to work with minimal effort essentially takes the ECU to factory defaults...I don't see a problem with that, especially since you won't have to do it again as long as you keep premium gas in the tank.



There ARE two tables (See screenshots below). There is spark derating that occurs in real time to correct for knock in certain cells WITHOUT the ECU giving up and going directly to the low octane table...This is known as knock retard - and is an "adaptive" set of values...but if it sees TOO much knock from the knock sensors it reverts to the low octane table.

Think of the high octane and low octane tables as a coarse adjustment to "get it in the ballpark" and the knock retard as a fine tuning adjustment...

These screenshots are from a 2002 Z28 factory default configuration...1st screenshot is the Spark Advance Menu, 2nd screenshot is the High Octane Table, and 3rd screenshot is the Low Octane Table. Notice the BIG differences between the two tables occur at WOT (the values at the bottom of each screenshot) THAT IS WHY THIS WORKS!!!
THANKS THATS HOW WE LOOK AT IT.GREAT JOB ON IT.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:16 PM   #78
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I pulled the fuses and left them out for 3 hours and the car does run better not a tremendous amount but it does run better. Idle quality is the biggest difference I noticed, it just feels smoother all over and the more I drove it the better it ran. In my opinion its well worth the time to do this.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:21 PM   #79
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I have revised the screenshots for clarity...
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:37 PM   #80
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I'll try it on my LS3 tonight! With my pants on of course...
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Awaiting your results.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:43 PM   #81
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ECM issues with GM cars have been around for a while, normally just ECM fuses blowing because of a failing injector or something. This is a first I've heard about the octane problem but it does make sense. I've been having a rough idle so I'm curious to see if this temp fixes it. I believe you could also reset by removing the negative terminal ONLY from the battery. I'm going to disconnect my MAF sensor as well with this mod.

Best thread I've read so far.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:45 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh0rsep0wer View Post
I have revised the screenshots for clarity...
wh0rsep0wer:

I'm pretty amazed at the level of access you seem to have to automotive ECM calibration tables. I'm shocked the OEM's give out encryption keys to aftermarket software companies for this type of access. There must be some waivers signed for that. Do you actually have write access to those tables? If so it seems like an easy way to jack up an emissions calibration and subsequent catalyst life. I know most folks here have no concern about that but I could see a lot of so called "experts" out there with this type of tool really jacking things up.

So I can see from what you have shown, at least on the 2002 Z28, there are two cal tables. I guess my point revolves around the strategy code. I understand how you say it works in the presence of knock but why doesn't it revert after a key cycle? It would be really good to hear from somebody "in the know" from GM on this. No offense meant to you at all on this. You seem to know your stuff. Great info.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueclyde View Post
wh0rsep0wer:

I'm pretty amazed at the level of access you seem to have to automotive ECM calibration tables. I'm shocked the OEM's give out encryption keys to aftermarket software companies for this type of access. There must be some waivers signed for that. Do you actually have write access to those tables? If so it seems like an easy way to jack up an emissions calibration and subsequent catalyst life. I know most folks here have no concern about that but I could see a lot of so called "experts" out there with this type of tool really jacking things up.

So I can see from what you have shown, at least on the 2002 Z28, there are two cal tables. I guess my point revolves around the strategy code. I understand how you say it works in the presence of knock but why doesn't it revert after a key cycle? It would be really good to hear from somebody "in the know" from GM on this. No offense meant to you at all on this. You seem to know your stuff. Great info.
Thanks...yes, with HPTuners you have write access to just about everything, including those tables. For example, the first step in creating a speed density tune is to copy the high octane tables into the low octane tables (which is why I was familiar with the concept of why the fuse pull works)...so it gets rid of your safety net....and you BETTER not put low octane fuel afterwards.

You are also correct about the ability to "jack" things up...it is extremely easy to blow up your motor changing parameters this easily...THAT is why dealers have a good case for voiding warranties based on ECM flashes. This should ONLY be attempted by professionals. In my case, I'm not a professional tuner but I work with instrumentation and control systems in the nuclear industry. More importantly I know just enough about it to know how easy it is to screw stuff up, so I'm EXTREMELY cautious with my tuning.

It is entirely possible that the tables are supposed to revert after a key cycle...it makes complete sense to do it that way. I'm also curious to find out the true prognosis on why some of these ECU's aren't reverting...
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:17 PM   #84
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It looks like that puller can be used two ways (on either the length or width of the fuse) as it has claws on both ends of the tool. If the fuse has a lip on the upper edge of all 4 sides, that is.... I am just guessing here as I have not looked at nor have I pulled any fuses for a long time.... and those fuses look smaller than ones I have seen in my youth.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:32 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueclyde View Post
wh0rsep0wer:

I'm pretty amazed at the level of access you seem to have to automotive ECM calibration tables. I'm shocked the OEM's give out encryption keys to aftermarket software companies for this type of access. There must be some waivers signed for that. Do you actually have write access to those tables? If so it seems like an easy way to jack up an emissions calibration and subsequent catalyst life. I know most folks here have no concern about that but I could see a lot of so called "experts" out there with this type of tool really jacking things up.

So I can see from what you have shown, at least on the 2002 Z28, there are two cal tables. I guess my point revolves around the strategy code. I understand how you say it works in the presence of knock but why doesn't it revert after a key cycle? It would be really good to hear from somebody "in the know" from GM on this. No offense meant to you at all on this. You seem to know your stuff. Great info.
If you have about $500 sitting around and a lap top, you too can access your ECM and change things around to your heart's content (not a good idea actually unless you really know what you are doing). Just go to this site:

http://www.hptuners.com/


I have a 2009 Pontiac G8GT with the L76 6.0 V8 and the A6. I bought HPTuners for my 2005 GTO and had addtional licenses so when I traded the GTO in on the G8 last month, I was able to license the G8 and download the ECM data. I then made some minor changes like turning off the DOD (I did not care for the roughness, even though it was mild) and reflashed the ECM.

Anyway, just like the L99, the L76 also has high and low octane tables. This is what the HPTuners help section says about them:

Main Spark Tables
The VCM constantly looks up both High Octane and Low Octane spark tables and interpolates a value between the two tables based on the current Knock Learn factor. If the engine has been operating for a moderate time without any Knock Retard then Knock Learn is zero and the interpolation favors the High Octane table, if Knock has been detected then the interpolation will move towards the Low Octane table. During MAF failure the Knock Learn is set to maximum and the Low Octane table is used (HP Tuners speed density enhancements allow both spark tables to function).


By the way, the L76 is a premium fuel recommended engine and the quick reference guide says the engine will run on regular but run better on premium, obviously because of the different octane tables. On the other hand, the LS2 in my GTO was a premium fuel required engine and did not have different spark tables. I did not notice but did anyone confirm whether the LS3 has two octane tables?
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:41 PM   #86
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Quote:
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If you have about $500 sitting around and a lap top, you too can access your ECM and change things around to your heart's content (not a good idea actually unless you really know what you are doing). Just go to this site:

http://www.hptuners.com/


I have a 2009 Pontiac G8GT with the L76 6.0 V8 and the A6. I bought HPTuners for my 2005 GTO and had addtional licenses so when I traded the GTO in on the G8 last month, I was able to license the G8 and download the ECM data. I then made some minor changes like turning off the DOD (I did not care for the roughness, even though it was mild) and reflashed the ECM.

Anyway, just like the L99, the L76 also has high and low octane tables. This is what the HPTuners help section says about them:

Main Spark Tables
The VCM constantly looks up both High Octane and Low Octane spark tables and interpolates a value between the two tables based on the current Knock Learn factor. If the engine has been operating for a moderate time without any Knock Retard then Knock Learn is zero and the interpolation favors the High Octane table, if Knock has been detected then the interpolation will move towards the Low Octane table. During MAF failure the Knock Learn is set to maximum and the Low Octane table is used (HP Tuners speed density enhancements allow both spark tables to function).


By the way, the L76 is a premium fuel recommended engine and the quick reference guide says the engine will run on regular but run better on premium, obviously because of the different octane tables. On the other hand, the LS2 in my GTO was a premium fuel required engine and did not have different spark tables. I did not notice but did anyone confirm whether the LS3 has two octane tables?
I just sent my interface module serial number to HPTuners in order to get the Beta software so I can access my LS3's ECU...as soon as I get that I will look to verify whether there are one or two octane tables.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:50 PM   #87
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Why are the dealerships or GM not taking care of this problem....
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:55 PM   #88
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I keep seeing "ECM" vs. "ECU"... is there a difference? Or just different names for the same thing? And what do these acronyms even stand for? Thanks
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:00 PM   #89
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Engine Control Module (ECM) and Engine Control Unit (ECU)...I use them interchangeably (probably incorrectly) when I refer to the computer that controls the engine parameters.

HPTuners refers to a VCM (Vehicle Control Module) because it also talks to the Body Control Module (BCM), and PCM (Powertrain Control Module)
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:09 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh0rsep0wer View Post
Engine Control Module (ECM) and Engine Control Unit (ECU)...I use them interchangeably (probably incorrectly) when I refer to the computer that controls the engine parameters.

HPTuners refers to a VCM (Vehicle Control Module) because it also talks to the Body Control Module (BCM), and PCM (Powertrain Control Module)
Thanks
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:10 PM   #91
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i just took the fuses out after feeling for a while that there was a lack of power. I will put them back in the morning and see how it goes
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:45 PM   #92
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Awesome news for all the L99 guys!
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:59 PM   #93
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Does anyone else remember reading in these forums about people gaining power and speed after there first service? wonder if dealers have been resseting peoples cars all along http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ght=oil+change

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Old 08-25-2009, 11:24 PM   #94
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Why are the dealerships or GM not taking care of this problem....
Maybe they have not figured out what is wrong yet. Like HPTuners says, the engines are supposed to adapt to knock conditions over time, but that does not appear to be happening with the problem cars. Thus, the fuse fix does not really solve the problem as someone already noted.

I do know that no one at the G8 board is complaining about the 361 hp L76, and with only 800 miles, my car definitely feels like it can do 0-60 in 5.3 as claimed by Pontiac. The L76 is similar to the L99 but does not have variable valve timing. It does, however, have the same 10.4:1 compression ratio.

I note from the spread sheets at the GM powertrain site that both the L99 and the LS3 are premium fuel recommended engines, so my guess is they both use high and low octane fuel tables (click on the "SS" for each engine at this site: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...a/10car_us.htm)


All that being said, it seems extreme that using 87 octane gas would increase the 0-60 time by a second or more, which is literally like taking on the order of 100 flywheel hp away. Most times I have seen actual comparisons between hp on high and low octane fuels, the differences have only been a few percent.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:25 PM   #95
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Ok guys. I just want to point out that I also received an increase in MPG while driving on the freeway for a little less than an hour.

I used to average 24.5 on the same freeways before the pull. After the pull i averaged 29.1 going 65mph.

My drive: from my house 91 West -> 605 North -> 105 West -> 710 North and off the freeway to my moms house.

Then back home: my mom's house 710 South -> 105 East -> 605 South -> 91 East and off the freeway to my house.

48.3 miles total.

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Old 08-26-2009, 12:11 AM   #96
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I'm so confused.


Anyway, I was told that the fuel tables were automaticaly adjusting only one way. That it would adjust from high to low to protect the system but not from low to high. You can run high octane through the low tabled setting just fine but running low fuel through a high tabled system could damage your system.

Make sense?
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Old 08-26-2009, 01:20 AM   #97
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Anybody that puts 87 octane in a V8 period should be bitchslapped. It redicious that the dealers have been putting cheap gas in these cars just to save a few bucks.

You should only have to let the fuses set out a hour at the most. The purpose is to wait till all the capacitors in the computer has discharged. When current is reapplied to it and the car is started up, it then begins to relearn its tables..
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Old 08-26-2009, 05:22 AM   #98
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:00 AM   #99
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I also remember plenty of people on this site commenting how their Camaro came alive after about 2500 to 3000 miles. Could have been the fuel table resetting.
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:50 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh0rsep0wer View Post
I just sent my interface module serial number to HPTuners in order to get the Beta software so I can access my LS3's ECU...as soon as I get that I will look to verify whether there are one or two octane tables.


all you have to do is send an e-mail to support and they will place the new beta on your login page and you can download it,, as long as you have the newer usb adapter/converter box
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