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Old 02-27-2011, 10:32 PM   #1251
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Originally Posted by shortstop4 View Post
I told the dealer AT LEAST 3 times to make sure and fill it with premium gas.. and I verified on delivery that he did so.

That was before I had ever heard of a "low octane fuel table".. lucky i hounded my dealer
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:42 PM   #1252
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so is this verified on the LS3's yet? I have one and granted it is my first sports car, it feels like a badass the way it is. I did confirm that all vehicles at my dealer fill from the same tank and it is not very likely it is premium. On top of all this, my dealer has not heard of anything like this. They state it should reset itself.

I guess my question is, Is the problem that the computer should, but is not resetting itself and by the fuse pull, we are fixing the issue?

apologies for the ignorance.....it's all new to me
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:50 AM   #1253
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so is this verified on the LS3's yet? I have one and granted it is my first sports car, it feels like a badass the way it is. I did confirm that all vehicles at my dealer fill from the same tank and it is not very likely it is premium. On top of all this, my dealer has not heard of anything like this. They state it should reset itself.

I guess my question is, Is the problem that the computer should, but is not resetting itself and by the fuse pull, we are fixing the issue?

apologies for the ignorance.....it's all new to me
Basically, on many other cars, it resets to the high table.

On THESE cars, it doesn't. GM apperently didn't mean for it to. After all, if all cars set to the low table, GM has a bunch of weaker engines so not as much wear. So less warranty issues.

Cars used to really run like crap if they got low grade and required high. So we should just be glad out cars still run well. Instead of taking it to the dealer to reset should we accidentaly get low octane, we can just pull the fuses.

They don't seem to care to fix it. Not many complaints I guess. We here know our power. But most of the Camaro buying world will never know the difference.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:01 AM   #1254
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Originally Posted by El Duderino View Post
so is this verified on the LS3's yet? I have one and granted it is my first sports car, it feels like a badass the way it is. I did confirm that all vehicles at my dealer fill from the same tank and it is not very likely it is premium. On top of all this, my dealer has not heard of anything like this. They state it should reset itself.

I guess my question is, Is the problem that the computer should, but is not resetting itself and by the fuse pull, we are fixing the issue?

apologies for the ignorance.....it's all new to me
I'm not sure if it's "confirmed" but definately worth it.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:26 PM   #1255
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I agree with your thoughts on customers not knowing their cars are not performing up to snuff.
I can't believe how many used SSs I'm seeing on Ford lots.
Seriously, at least half a dozen the last few months.

My problem is I'm looking at leaving my car for a day at the dealer, or a simple fuse pull.
Just annoying, not end of the world stuff.
So my hope is that it will pay off.......obviously.

Don't let some guy with a Jan '10 build date, a crappy attitude and an LS3 get under your skin.

I am very grateful I saw this thread last year!!!!!!!
I'll report back if I decide to visit the dealer.

My first post here since last summer. I had stopped at my dealer once since and asked them to check for bulletins.
Was at the dealer today. Finally set an appointment because I'm tired of this, and was bothered that apparently there are reports now that not only low octane gas can get this screwed up. Bumps in the road? With summer coming up, I wanted this fixed.

For the first time today, I saw an official document that referenced the issue.

#PIP4728: Higher Than Expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) Acceleration Time- (Nov 4, 2009)
Refers only to L99.
The dealer gave me a software update, reprogram ECM.

My car is a *%$@ing rocket again. Hopefully, it will be forever.

It is stunning how the car transforms after fuse pulls, and again after the update today. If you can tap on your gas pedal gently, and don't get RPM surges, you may have the problem. For me, when the car is right, the pedal is very responsive. When it's not, and I'm moving at around twenty miles an hour and I floor it, it feels like the trans is missing on shift points.
Just a COMPLETE change in the car.
When I left the dealer, and knew it was right again, I laughed out loud. I was happy.

If my car reverts again, I'll be back.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:45 PM   #1256
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#PIP4728: Higher Than Expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) Acceleration Time- (Nov 4, 2009)
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:29 PM   #1257
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If the problem has been permanently solved for me, and hell, even if it hasn't, I want to thank you guys for bringing this to light.

The tech that rode with me initially today told me he was not aware of a problem. I believe him.
They also told me that when they found the bulletin they said " This guy does his research."
That tells me that there are people out there that drive this car and don't know that the problem exists.
That sucks.
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:37 PM   #1258
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If the problem has been permanently solved for me, and hell, even if it hasn't, I want to thank you guys for bringing this to light.

The tech that rode with me initially today told me he was not aware of a problem. I believe him.
They also told me that when they found the bulletin they said " This guy does his research."
That tells me that there are people out there that drive this car and don't know that the problem exists.
That sucks.
I can tell you ABSOLUTELY that MOST of them out there are weak and don't even know it. I can remember some of the first vids of cars where people were not impressed with the L99. And even now, some dealers don't even know and are telling there customers that the car is running correctly. Drove me crazy before all of this.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:07 AM   #1259
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#PIP4728: Higher Than Expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) Acceleration Time - (Nov 4, 2009)


Subject: Higher Than Expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) Acceleration Time


Models: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro

with V8 Active Fuel Management Engine (RPO L99)

and 6 Speed Automatic Transmission (RPO MYC)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

Condition/Concern:
Some customers may complain of higher than expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) acceleration times when hot ambient temperatures are present. In some cases, they may report 0-60 times around 7 seconds.

This may be the result of the vehicle being filled with regular grade unleaded gasoline at one time. If the vehicle has been filled with regular unleaded gasoline, the ECM may be compensating for the lower octane by retarding the ignition timing during certain driving conditions.

Recommendation/Instructions:
If SI diagnosis does not isolate the cause of this concern, perform the suggestions below if the customer wants the best performance from their Camaro:

In an area where it is legal to do so, take a snapshot of a 0-60 WOT acceleration event and compare the vehicle speed parameter to the snapshot timer to determine the 0-60 MPH time.
Determine what gasoline octane the customer has been filling the vehicle with.
• 2a. If they have never used anything but premium unleaded with a posted octane of 93 or higher, go to step 3.

• 2b. If they occasionally use regular or mid-grade gasoline, the gasoline must be removed from the tank and it must be refilled with premium fuel of 93 octane or greater. This can be done by advising the customer to switch to premium fuel of 93 octane or greater and returning after a few tanks of premium fuel have been consumed. Or, if immediate results are necessary, drain the fuel tank, refill it with premium fuel of 93 octane or greater, and drive the vehicle at least 15 miles to purge the old fuel out of the fuel rail and lines.

Reprogram the ECM with the latest TIS2Web calibrations to reset the ECM adapts. Normally this reset can also be accomplished by pulling the 2 main ECM fuses (F13R and F20U) shown in the ECM Power, Ground, MIL, and Serial Data Schematic (SI Document # 2209065).
In an area where it is legal to do so, take another snapshot of a 0-60 WOT acceleration event and compare it to the original snapshot to determine if the 0-60 MPH time has increased. If an increase is noted, advise the customer that they should only use premium unleaded gasoline with a posted octane rating of 93 or higher to continue getting the best performance from their Camaro. This is outlined on page 8-45 of the owner's manual. GM Connect Message G_0000037144 was also sent out on 9/2/2009 about filling stock units with premium gasoline.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:41 AM   #1260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAZZ View Post
#PIP4728: Higher Than Expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) Acceleration Time - (Nov 4, 2009)


Subject: Higher Than Expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) Acceleration Time


Models: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro

with V8 Active Fuel Management Engine (RPO L99)

and 6 Speed Automatic Transmission (RPO MYC)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

Condition/Concern:
Some customers may complain of higher than expected 0-60 MPH (97 KPH) acceleration times when hot ambient temperatures are present. In some cases, they may report 0-60 times around 7 seconds.

This may be the result of the vehicle being filled with regular grade unleaded gasoline at one time. If the vehicle has been filled with regular unleaded gasoline, the ECM may be compensating for the lower octane by retarding the ignition timing during certain driving conditions.

Recommendation/Instructions:
If SI diagnosis does not isolate the cause of this concern, perform the suggestions below if the customer wants the best performance from their Camaro:

In an area where it is legal to do so, take a snapshot of a 0-60 WOT acceleration event and compare the vehicle speed parameter to the snapshot timer to determine the 0-60 MPH time.
Determine what gasoline octane the customer has been filling the vehicle with.
• 2a. If they have never used anything but premium unleaded with a posted octane of 93 or higher, go to step 3.

• 2b. If they occasionally use regular or mid-grade gasoline, the gasoline must be removed from the tank and it must be refilled with premium fuel of 93 octane or greater. This can be done by advising the customer to switch to premium fuel of 93 octane or greater and returning after a few tanks of premium fuel have been consumed. Or, if immediate results are necessary, drain the fuel tank, refill it with premium fuel of 93 octane or greater, and drive the vehicle at least 15 miles to purge the old fuel out of the fuel rail and lines.

Reprogram the ECM with the latest TIS2Web calibrations to reset the ECM adapts. Normally this reset can also be accomplished by pulling the 2 main ECM fuses (F13R and F20U) shown in the ECM Power, Ground, MIL, and Serial Data Schematic (SI Document # 2209065).
In an area where it is legal to do so, take another snapshot of a 0-60 WOT acceleration event and compare it to the original snapshot to determine if the 0-60 MPH time has increased. If an increase is noted, advise the customer that they should only use premium unleaded gasoline with a posted octane rating of 93 or higher to continue getting the best performance from their Camaro. This is outlined on page 8-45 of the owner's manual. GM Connect Message G_0000037144 was also sent out on 9/2/2009 about filling stock units with premium gasoline.
Awesome. Thanks for posting.

Mine was never as slow as 7 seconds. But definitely slow. The 2011s should also be under the umbrella as well. Unless they changed something in the passed few months.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:54 PM   #1261
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I stopped at my dealer today, and they had no idea what I was talking about until I gave them this information. Couple of things to note:
This is for 2010 L99 Camaros. The fuses to pull for the 2011 are 5 and 20, not 13 and 20 as stated above.
According to the dealer, this should take less than 30 minutes but is not a permanent fix either. If you somehow manage to get low octane gas in the engine you will be right back where you started.

I guess it is worth a shot, and make sure you just put in the good stuff moving forward. I think ultimately, the only way to do it right is going to be to get an after-market tune that removes the possibility of two fuel maps completely.

These engines are built like tanks. I don't see why GM is so scared of letting them do what they are designed to.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:58 PM   #1262
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I stopped at my dealer today, and they had no idea what I was talking about until I gave them this information. Couple of things to note:
This is for 2010 L99 Camaros. The fuses to pull for the 2011 are 5 and 20, not 13 and 20 as stated above.
According to the dealer, this should take less than 30 minutes but is not a permanent fix either. If you somehow manage to get low octane gas in the engine you will be right back where you started.

I guess it is worth a shot, and make sure you just put in the good stuff moving forward. I think ultimately, the only way to do it right is going to be to get an after-market tune that removes the possibility of two fuel maps completely.

These engines are built like tanks. I don't see why GM is so scared of letting them do what they are designed to.


It's the 5 and 20 on the 2011 and 2010s so I'm not sure either. But you're right. There is no permanent fix other than a tune. Again, I think GM prefers it the way it is.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:28 AM   #1263
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It's the 5 and 20 on the 2011 and 2010s so I'm not sure either. But you're right. There is no permanent fix other than a tune. Again, I think GM prefers it the way it is.
That would be disappointing to me, but not the end of the world. They'll get very tired of me coming in there if it keeps reverting, and it has been reverting even though I have not used less than Shell or BP premium fuel since August of 2009.

I'm also wondering why my receipt shows "Software Update Reprogram ECM per TSB #PIP4728."
That wording does not indicate "we turned everything off and restarted it" to me, but again, it's progress.
We'll see I guess.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:42 AM   #1264
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I have been checking on this issue with dealers, and then finally, Monday, there was a bulletin dated November 4, 2009. I was in there last July and that bulletin didn't exist.
In my mind, there is at least a chance that they finally figured out they needed to do something, did it, and made it available.

Fingers crossed. What else can ya do?

Last edited by Fourth Camaro; 03-09-2011 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:43 AM   #1265
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That wording does not indicate "we turned everything off and restarted it" to me, but again, it's progress.
We'll see I guess.


NO doubt.

But, I say again, it's better than it used to be. Where if your car required high octane, and you used low, it could damage your engine because there was no retarding of the timing. AND at least we can fix it at home.

But that's what I'm saying. GM will save a ton in warranty claims becasue 90% of SS owners wont' even know the difference.

Hell, before the fuse pull thing, there were people on here telling me I was crazy. That I 'should have bought the LS3' or I need to learn how to drive my car.

When I finaly was forced to pull my fuses, and blew this thing wide open, I had guys PMing me their new time slips and appolagizing.

Bottom line is it's perfect for GM right now. They have an easy low to no cost reset and they have a ton of underpowered cars NOT stressing from 400+ HP.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:48 AM   #1266
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Oh, and it explains why so many are just not impressed. Why so many Mustangs and Challengers are killing the stock SS Camaros light to light. Espec, the L99s, that make their mark and are faster 0-60mph. That's where the red light races are won. 0-60mph is the general gauge on how bad ass the car is out on the streets. Becasue that's where the most races happen. Leave the stop light, accelerate to 55 or 60 and guage each other like that.

Quarter mile runs are done on the track, and maybe 3% of car owners ever make it to the track.

These cars get a bad gauge form most becasue most of our SSs are underpowered suffereing from low spark timing.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:35 PM   #1267
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Wow I'm so glad I read this thread... I'm doing this tonight. Even though I have a LS3 I'm having similar Idling problems because of the lower octance gas was used. Hopefully the problems will be fixed in the morning!
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:46 PM   #1268
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So the best way to do the reset if you ended up using low octane gas would be to let your car run the tank almost out with the low octane gas - fill it up with the highest octane 91+ that you can (so the car doesn't sense any low octane fuel) - and then drive home and do the fuse pull and reinsert the next a.m. ?

BTW: 90 is the best octane I can get here in Anchorage, so it looks like I will have to boost it with an additive to get to 93 - any suggestions?

Last edited by D Day Dog; 03-12-2011 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 03-12-2011, 01:40 AM   #1269
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So the best way to do the reset if you ended up using low octane gas would be to let your car run the tank almost out with the low octane gas - fill it up with the highest octane 91+ that you can (so the car doesn't sense any low octane fuel) - and then drive home and do the fuse pull and reinsert the next a.m. ?

BTW: 90 is the best octane I can get here in Anchorage, so it looks like I will have to boost it with an additive to get to 93 - any suggestions?

Yes that is correct. I did a second fuse pull on mine after I filled up for the second time with 91 (highest we can get). As for additives I do not know what is the best any more. I say try what you can get and see if it makes a difference after the fuse pull.
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Old 03-12-2011, 01:41 AM   #1270
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Yes that is correct. I did a second fuse pull on mine after I filled up for the second time with 91 (highest we can get). As for additives I do not know what is the best any more. I say try what you can get and see if it makes a difference after the fuse pull.

Thanks !!!
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:05 AM   #1271
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For the record, its not good practice to take the tank down to E. U should always refill before 1/8. This keeps the pump and filter in better shape.
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:55 AM   #1272
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I've read through this thread and one thing I haven't seen anyone ask is, can onstar diagnostics tell you whether you car is running on the low or high octane fuel timing mapping???? Might jsut have to push the button and ask tomorrow, I'll let you know what they say.
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:09 AM   #1273
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Quote:
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NO doubt.

But, I say again, it's better than it used to be. Where if your car required high octane, and you used low, it could damage your engine because there was no retarding of the timing. AND at least we can fix it at home.

But that's what I'm saying. GM will save a ton in warranty claims becasue 90% of SS owners wont' even know the difference.

Hell, before the fuse pull thing, there were people on here telling me I was crazy. That I 'should have bought the LS3' or I need to learn how to drive my car.

When I finaly was forced to pull my fuses, and blew this thing wide open, I had guys PMing me their new time slips and appolagizing.

Bottom line is it's perfect for GM right now. They have an easy low to no cost reset and they have a ton of underpowered cars NOT stressing from 400+ HP.
It is amazing that when I put my Glock to his head and said pull the fuses he finally listened.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:00 AM   #1274
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It is amazing that when I put my Glock to his head and said pull the fuses he finally listened.
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Old 03-16-2011, 05:32 AM   #1275
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ALSO, the LS3 has the same issue. LS3 owners did not complain as much since they can rev up and launch their cars. L99's that is not the case. But many here with LS3's have pulled their fuses and said it was crazy how much better their car was.
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