swaybar question

[jxmot]

I'm not an experienced "modder" so if this is a dumb question (or has been asked already, searched found nothing) I apologize....

Is something like this - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-22109/
a worthwhile investment ? For somewhat "normal" daily driving would a mod like that be noticable ?

thanks!

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by jxmot

I'm not an experienced "modder" so if this is a dumb question (or has been asked already, searched found nothing) I apologize....

Is something like this - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-22109/
a worthwhile investment ? For somewhat "normal" daily driving would a mod like that be noticable ?

thanks!

This isn't a dumb question at all. Sway bars provide balance and roll stiffness to the platform and the Camaro needs both badly. I haven't tested the Hotchkis set-up personally but based on the rate increases they won't help with the balance issues but they will help with body roll. These particular bars may in fact increase the understeer based on the rates published.

The sway bars will increase steering response and they make the car feel more nimble as well as keep it flatter in the corners. They don't effect ride quality as they are only working in the corners. We feel sway bars should be the first upgrade in terms providing balance. We've done a lot of testing and we've come up with a balanced package that reduces the body roll.

Click on the image for more information


Please feel free to call or email us anytime. We can help you put together a package that suits your needs and budget.

Kind regards,

[jxmot]

Thank you for the response and the information. I've learned something new today, thanks!

In regards to installation this probably not something I would install myself. Who or what kind of shop should I look for to install swaybars?

Thanks again!

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by jxmot

I'm not an experienced "modder" so if this is a dumb question (or has been asked already, searched found nothing) I apologize....

Is something like this - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-22109/
a worthwhile investment ? For somewhat "normal" daily driving would a mod like that be noticable ?

thanks!

It is our feeling before doing any suspension upgrade, you must first decide a long term goal, especially with sway bars. For example, if you planned on doing only sway bars and maybe wheels and tires, then I would recommend our Pedders front sway bar only. For stock suspension, doing the front sway bar takes a serious dent out of the major understeer the Camaro has. Now if you planned on some performance drop coils or maybe our Pedders Xa Coil overs that we offer, then you can take full advantage of a multiple adjustable sway bar assembly.

Thanks
mike
dms

[jxmot]

If I understand correctly....

Right now I don't plan on changing the tires, wheels, or other suspension components in the near future. So with that I'd only need to install a front sway bar. My goal is to improve overall handling.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by jxmot

If I understand correctly....

Right now I don't plan on changing the tires, wheels, or other suspension components in the near future. So with that I'd only need to install a front sway bar. My goal is to improve overall handling.

I would recommend using our Balance Bar if this is your goal. It's a rear bar replacement and with the increased rate it eliminates the understeer while controlling overall body roll. It was designed to work with the factory front bar to bring balance to the chassis. If you did the front bar only you'd need to decrease the rate which wouldn't help control body roll as well. It's a great option!

Click on the Image for more Info!


Please feel free to call or email us anytime! :flag2:

Kind regards,

[urr2slo]

i just installed a set of these bars in my car and i can tell you they made a huge difference. i have this huge right handed sweeping on ramp i take every morning and the car just feels so much more planted and stable. great bars, and now i'm waiting on there springs. hotchkis makes a great product, i've been using there stuff since 2001 on several different vehicles and i cant say enough good things about them.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by dms

It is our feeling before doing any suspension upgrade, you must first decide a long term goal, especially with sway bars. For example, if you planned on doing only sway bars and maybe wheels and tires, then I would recommend our Pedders front sway bar only. For stock suspension, doing the front sway bar takes a serious dent out of the major understeer the Camaro has. Now if you planned on some performance drop coils or maybe our Pedders Xa Coil overs that we offer, then you can take full advantage of a multiple adjustable sway bar assembly.

Thanks
mike
dms

Hi Mike,

Are you decreasing the rate of your front bar to reduce understeer? If you do this the body roll will be increased but you will provide more overall front grip. If you're increasing it you're going to create more understeer? In order to remove understeer you must increase the rear rate or decrease the front rate; it's really pretty simple and nothing that we invented. But what you're saying is a contradiction to suspension tuning philosophy. I'm actually kind of beside myself?

Kind regards,

[Stitch]

Originally Posted by Jordan

Hi Mike,

Are you decreasing the rate of your front bar to reduce understeer?

I was thinking the exact same thing...

[jxmot]

If I understand correctly there are 3 sway bar options for me -

1) Rear only
2) Front only
3) Front and Rear

It also appears to me that option 3 generally provides some adjustment in the rear sway bar. Is that correct?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is how do I choose from those options ? I think (not sure, this isn't an "educated" guess) that taking into account any future mods (i.e. suspension) that the best choice for me is #3. Opinions and information is appreciated.

Thanks!

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by jxmot

If I understand correctly there are 3 sway bar options for me -

1) Rear only
2) Front only
3) Front and Rear

It also appears to me that option 3 generally provides some adjustment in the rear sway bar. Is that correct?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is how do I choose from those options ? I think (not sure, this isn't an "educated" guess) that taking into account any future mods (i.e. suspension) that the best choice for me is #3. Opinions and information is appreciated.

Thanks!

Our Pedders sway bar kits will be multi adjustable front and rear. To be honest, the bars are not that seriously expensive and may have some savings buying them as a set. The front units take about an hour, and the rears are about 1/2 hour. If you expect to do some additional suspension work in the future, then do both.

Now we have a totally different approach to others. This is what we have found with our testing so far. First of all, lets look at hitting a very hard corner. The corner should be divided into 3 sections: entering, middle and exiting. All are very distinctly different. The three sections require different procedure for completion. I feel the novice and intermediate driver will have the biggest problems during the first 2 sections of the turn.We will have a special front bar that will work better for the first 2 parts. Now the rear bar will work better on the exiting of the turn than the front, but will hinder the critical entering of the turn. So for the novice we feel the front bar will work better all in all.

Now one thing we are doing is making our front bar rather huge I think it will be the largest bar on the market. So we should have this larger bar very shortly and will be able to test it out and also test the useage of the rear bar as well. We added additional adjustments front and rear over initial design to give us additional adjustability. So We should have this all worked out very soon.

thanks
mike
dms

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Barret Dorian

The difference is the diameter of the sway bar. The thicker bar will be stiffer and will cause less body roll they give balance measure

Miami car service

There is a lot more than simply diameter; wall thickness is also a large factor.

Originally Posted by Stitch

I was thinking the exact same thing...

Originally Posted by jxmot

If I understand correctly there are 3 sway bar options for me -

1) Rear only
2) Front only
3) Front and Rear

It also appears to me that option 3 generally provides some adjustment in the rear sway bar. Is that correct?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is how do I choose from those options ? I think (not sure, this isn't an "educated" guess) that taking into account any future mods (i.e. suspension) that the best choice for me is #3. Opinions and information is appreciated.

Thanks!

Our Sport Sway Bar package is really the way to go. If your budget doesn't allow it then the Balance Bar is a great option. Please give me a call anytime and I'd be happy to answer your questions. We know how to balance a chassis and a lot of the suspension information out there is seriously wrong.

Kind regards,

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by dms

Our Pedders sway bar kits will be multi adjustable front and rear. To be honest, the bars are not that seriously expensive and may have some savings buying them as a set. The front units take about an hour, and the rears are about 1/2 hour. If you expect to do some additional suspension work in the future, then do both.

Now we have a totally different approach to others. This is what we have found with our testing so far. First of all, lets look at hitting a very hard corner. The corner should be divided into 3 sections: entering, middle and exiting. All are very distinctly different. The three sections require different procedure for completion. I feel the novice and intermediate driver will have the biggest problems during the first 2 sections of the turn.We will have a special front bar that will work better for the first 2 parts. Now the rear bar will work better on the exiting of the turn than the front, but will hinder the critical entering of the turn. So for the novice we feel the front bar will work better all in all.

Now one thing we are doing is making our front bar rather huge I think it will be the largest bar on the market. So we should have this larger bar very shortly and will be able to test it out and also test the useage of the rear bar as well. We added additional adjustments front and rear over initial design to give us additional adjustability. So We should have this all worked out very soon.

thanks
mike
dms

[ElManny]

Originally Posted by dms

Our Pedders sway bar kits will be multi adjustable front and rear. To be honest, the bars are not that seriously expensive and may have some savings buying them as a set. The front units take about an hour, and the rears are about 1/2 hour. If you expect to do some additional suspension work in the future, then do both.

Now we have a totally different approach to others. This is what we have found with our testing so far. First of all, lets look at hitting a very hard corner. The corner should be divided into 3 sections: entering, middle and exiting. All are very distinctly different. The three sections require different procedure for completion. I feel the novice and intermediate driver will have the biggest problems during the first 2 sections of the turn.We will have a special front bar that will work better for the first 2 parts. Now the rear bar will work better on the exiting of the turn than the front, but will hinder the critical entering of the turn. So for the novice we feel the front bar will work better all in all.

Now one thing we are doing is making our front bar rather huge I think it will be the largest bar on the market. So we should have this larger bar very shortly and will be able to test it out and also test the useage of the rear bar as well. We added additional adjustments front and rear over initial design to give us additional adjustability. So We should have this all worked out very soon.

thanks
mike
dms

mike do you guys have a shop in the bay area? if so where is it located?

[jxmot]

Gentlemen.... is there a "suspension FAQ" anywhere I can read ? I'd like to become a little more educated before I make a final choice.

thanks!

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by jxmot

Gentlemen.... is there a "suspension FAQ" anywhere I can read ? I'd like to become a little more educated before I make a final choice.

thanks!

We have some data here:
http://www.peddersusa.com/products/21/73


But we do not have a question and answer section that actually might be a great idea.

In general, the Camaro is too high and too heavy in the front. The dampers are OK but the coil rates are insufficient. The Zeta design is an excellent platform, but for their legacy philosophies on soft bushings under underspringing, creates serious understeer, and general all around lower performance in the suspension. Also the Camaro is set up for an adjustable caster method, but they do not give you the tools to do it with. Pedders has that taken care of.

So with our systems, we seriously reduce unwanted movement with very little changes in noise abatement, make the front and rear alignment more alignable, lower the center of gravity, improve damping levels, spring levels, and with aggressive multi adjustable sway bars, you will be able to assist in reduction of understeer, and fine tune the suspension to better meet your suspension needs.

So if you have questions, just ask
mike
dms

[Rikarus]

Will a stiffer/thicker front swaybar correct the right front wheel coming up when you jam into a corner?

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Rikarus

Will a stiffer/thicker front swaybar correct the right front wheel coming up when you jam into a corner?

In order to fix this issue you'll need a stiffer rear bar. In a right hand corner the weight is being shifted to the left rear and that is where it's rolling over. Springs can certainly help this also but sways would be the first place I'd start.

Please feel free to call or email us anytime!

Kind regards,

[Rikarus]

Originally Posted by Jordan

In order to fix this issue you'll need a stiffer rear bar. In a right hand corner the weight is being shifted to the left rear and that is where it's rolling over. Springs can certainly help this also but sways would be the first place I'd start.

Please feel free to call or email us anytime!

Kind regards,

Ah gotchya! TY

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Rikarus

Ah gotchya! TY

No problem! I'm happy to say we have the stiffest/largest rear bar as we understand vehicle dynamics. A stiff/large front bar is going to make the understeer problem in the 5th Gen much worse!

Kind regards,

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by Rikarus

Will a stiffer/thicker front swaybar correct the right front wheel coming up when you jam into a corner?

It will help but not 100%. The Camaro is too high and the coils are too soft. A more balanced approach would be to do a coil/sway bar package



mike
dms

[JusticePete]

Most people address a vehicle modification in terms of adding components. When setting up a vehicle the desired use of the vehicle is the most critical component and not anything you can buy. You are the single most critical component. How will YOU drive YOUR Camaro? That is why Mike is spot on with his comments.

The OEM Camaro has a huge amount of understeer built in when driven to 7/10 or more. It plows the North 40. Where is that point -- pretty well out in terms of performance. The understeer was designed in. Most drivers slow down or brake when a vehicle starts to slide. With understeer that is no problem, especially with electronic braking and stability controls. Slow down and the understeer harmlessly fades away. Lift or lift to brake in an oversteer condition and things can get ugly fast -- especially for drivers accustomed to understeer.

In our Camaro testing we have found that a larger front sway bar improves turn in at the point of understeer. That is not a fixed MPH; it is a condition in a particular turn. By getting more bite on the initial turn in you can now navigate the turn without encountering understeer you did. Push ever so slightly past that marginal threshold and understeer sets in. The larger front bar controls lean better than the OEM bar while you drive. A larger front bar does not reduce understeer. With a larger front bar when understeer sets in it will be worse than with the OEM smaller bar. For a great many Camaro owners, their driving experience will be superior with a larger front bar because of the way they drive. The driving experience for most owners is their primary interest and not the fastest lap on a track.

On the Pedders Camaro, with a full Pedders suspension, Forgeline wheels and Bridgestone RE-11 305/30/19s we are finding that driving past 7/10s requires more speed and more aggressive maneuvers than we expected. A lot more. The car sticks like Velcro to the road -- with OEM bars. What that tells us is that a properly bushes, sprung, damped Camaro with light weight wheels and great rubber drives very well and will require only fine tuning with sway bars. For our setup we will want the car to be so well balanced it slides seamlessly between neutral and oversteer with driver input. It is critical to avoid falling off the edge into oversteer for even the most accomplished driver. We want the fastest lap on the track.

As we test with OEM rubber and the Pedders rubber, with Pedders suspension and OE rubber, with a fully setup Pedders car, we are coming up with very different bar solutions that will work within a range of Camaro vehicle setup. A modest increase in the rear bar for better balance front to rear with OEM suspension, wheel and tires – why? Most who would want more performance will do more modifications requiring a different front bar too. We may offer a single front bar solution for the enthusiast that drives modestly, a front and rear bar solution for the enthusiast that drives more aggressively and a very aggressive bar set for those that drive like I do. We still have not made a commitment to a solution as we just completed our test mule. To find the edge of performance, you need a Camaro capable of a lot more than OEM speeds, acceleration and deceleration. Now that we have a tool for that job, we’ll keep you posted on the results. I can say is our G8s tested out rather well at New Jersey Motorsports Park. The drivers found them to be seriously capable and exceptionally fast. My personal G8 is an awesome automobile. I love it. Driving the OEM Camaro was just not the same as driving a dialed in G8. When I drive the upgraded Camaro all I think about is how much better it is than the G8 -- and we still don’t have the bars dialed in.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I haven't tested the Hotchkis set-up personally but based on the rate increases they won't help with the balance issues but they will help with body roll. These particular bars may in fact increase the understeer based on the rates published.

Jordan is correct. To reduce understeer the rear bar diameter must be increased in relation to the front bar. What Hotchkis is attempting to do is improve the driving experience. The car will feel better when driven within a certain range. Push past that range and there will be more understeer than in OEM trim from a bar perspective. HOWEVER, based on our testing the driving experience for a great many would be very rewarding as most do not push into the limits where the increase in understeer would be found. What is the right solution. Is it a technically correct solution that may induce too much oversteer at the wrong time or a safe solution that maintains understeer, but at a higher threshold? Maybe it should be both and we'll bring to market multiple bar solutions....

[Doc]

It's very interesting to see 2 respected names with such totally different approaches to suspension setup.

Correcting understeer means either giving more grip to the front, or less grip to the rear or a slight combination of both.

The car is front heavy so there's more force pushing to the outside in the front when cornering, and the rear tires are bigger than the front so they have more grip to begin with. Without mods the fronts in a corner are going to lose grip before the rears do, thus the understeer.

So the "large rear sway bar" philosophy controls body roll thus reducing the weight shift to the outside in the front? And that's how it's reducing understeer? And the "large front sway bar" philosophy makes the back of the car roll more so it shifts it's weight first and that's how it's reducing understeer?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to understand how two completely opposite strategies can accomplish the same thing here.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by Doc

It's very interesting to see 2 respected names with such totally different approaches to suspension setup.

Correcting understeer means either giving more grip to the front, or less grip to the rear or a slight combination of both.

The car is front heavy so there's more force pushing to the outside in the front when cornering, and the rear tires are bigger than the front so they have more grip to begin with. Without mods the fronts in a corner are going to lose grip before the rears do, thus the understeer.

So the "large rear sway bar" philosophy controls body roll thus reducing the weight shift to the outside in the front? And that's how it's reducing understeer? And the "large front sway bar" philosophy makes the back of the car roll more so it shifts it's weight first and that's how it's reducing understeer?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to understand how two completely opposite strategies can accomplish the same thing here.

Hey Doc, I think you mean Correcting understeer means more grip to the front and less to the back?

It is a challenge and a balancing act because the amount of body role and understeer is seriously excessive. Getting rid of it by replacing bars is, in my opinion, not the way go. Improving it, bars can help. If you break a corner into 3 sections, entering middle and exiting, the front bar will help a lot of the first 2 and for the novice, will work better. The rear bar will help on the exiting of the corner, potentially better for a professional driver.

To me a more balanced approach will be a bar and drop coils with higher rates. We have been able to get our Xa coil overs set up when dropping low, to a neutral position. That has been our goal since the start, and we have obtained it. We now have multiple Camaros that we have access to from a complete Track System with monster tires, the Pedders Camaro, to a Camaro that is stock and a Camaro that has our coil overs. So we will be able to come up with multiple options and recommendations. If the Camaro handling wasn;t so poor, we would not have these issues at all.

thanks
mike
dms