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Old 12-23-2009, 11:17 AM   #1
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LS3 Bottom End

So have we heard of anyone breaking bottom ends yet? I am going to have around 650 RWHP and a very conservative tune and was wondering if I should ride on pins and needles or if I will be fine. I know parts always break but my question is in general. I skimmed through this section and do not seem to find any posts on tearing the bottom end out yet?

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Old 12-23-2009, 12:55 PM   #2
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With that HP, if you rev it too high and stay high, it won't last too long! The piston and the rings will not handle the heat.

I'd highly recommend adding meth to keep the temp down, and prevent knock. One small knock will blow that piston on #7!
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Old 12-23-2009, 01:02 PM   #3
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If the tune has the rev limiter turned down wouldn't that prevent me from rev too high? I think he will have it down around 6000 or so.
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Old 12-23-2009, 01:26 PM   #4
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That's one thing for sure. Secondly the timing is critical with that much boost on stock bottom end.

With 650 rwhp, you better have money ready for an engine rebuild and all the costs associated with it or bring your expectation down (like what LPE or Magnoson recommend on stock bottom) and then have a long life. This car is designed to be a N/A car not a F/I. If you look at GT500, the engine is Iron block, forged bottom and low compression and from the factory, it's only 540 HP to cranks which is 460 whp. Now you want to go 200 more rwhp on none forged, hi compression and expect it to last long? Whoever is preaching to you, is trying to make some quick money out of you.
Sorry for being straight forward, but I hate to see your car seating broken!

p.s. One other thing, if there are members who are blowing their engine, this would be the last place to brag about it. So, if you don't hear, doesn't mean it's not happening (meaning blowing engine) :-)
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Old 12-23-2009, 01:36 PM   #5
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I have asked for it to be tuned way down very conservative 11 or 12 degrees max. I do not beat my car up either. If I get on it it's from a roll not a dig. I baby the crap out of my car. I am only running 7 pounds of boost. I have upgraded fuel system and entire top end as well. I would not expect to beat the shit out of my car and it last. I just want the balls under the hood for a time to time run. No tracks. So with that being said I think I will hold up fine.

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Old 12-23-2009, 01:42 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pope Designs View Post
I have asked for it to be tuned way down very conservative 11 or 12 degrees max. I do not beat my car up either. If I get on it it's from a roll not a dig. I baby the crap out of my car. I am only running 7 pounds of boost. I have upgraded fuel system and entire top end as well. I would not expect to beat the shit out of my car and it last. I just want the balls under the hood for a time to time run. No tracks. So with that being said I think I will hold up fine.

Bryan
I feel better with your response now. Just keep the high RPM "duration" to it's lowest time possible, not like holding it 6500 for 30 seconds. :-)

Good luck and if you can, add a meth kit to it!
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:00 PM   #7
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If the tune has the rev limiter turned down wouldn't that prevent me from rev too high? I think he will have it down around 6000 or so.
There is one side effect to this that you should be aware of. When the rev limiter is lowered, it's easier to hit the rev limiter than before. The problem with hitting the rev limiter, is that, the computer cuts off fuel supply, which the car leans out, However, when the car is under boost and fuel is cut, it creates a massive heat that burns the piston and breaks the rings. A friend's car on dyno was blown when the operator hit the rev limiter at 9lb of boost and ring broke due to head and expansion and created a domino effect. So, lowering rev limiter is good, as long as you don't hit it.

I'll say it again. Add meth and save the engine! I've had it on both S/C and Turbo cars!
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:44 PM   #8
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I would like to add that with that tuning strategy, you might still want to look into a meth kit IF you want to seek more power. At that power level, you should be ok granted you take the added precautions that will ensure, if one system fails, you have a back up to hold it all together.

Still, I would round up some cash for a shortblock rebuild because, eventually, you will need it. It depends on how you drive it if it's sooner than later.
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:47 PM   #9
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There are a couple tuners out there running 10 psi on stock bottom ends.... That seems to be about the limit....

No one is brave enough to go higher as of yet.

And I agree with meth injection.

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Old 12-23-2009, 03:49 PM   #10
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Z Rocks you are absolutely right,I'll be pulling my broke "STOCK" shortblock out soon,Why because it made 600 whp on ten pounds of boost,and I beat the shit out of it,And I'm gonna continue to beat the shit out of after I install the new LSX Block with all forged internals,Hell I might even spring for the Oliver Rods, shooting for that grand benchmark,If you know what I mean,So guys ya better baby'um if you want'um to live...
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:53 PM   #11
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It all depends on how you drive, and how good the tune up is. Several are lasting at 700 rwhp plus, with good tunes and responsible drivers
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:56 PM   #12
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z_rocks, i believe the rev limiter on this car is not a fuel cut off limiter, but just the throttle by wire not letting you rev anymore. I do not believe they are actually using fuel cutoff like they used to do.

I could be wrong, but thats what it felt like when i accidently hit it a couple of times.
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:58 PM   #13
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Z Rocks you are absolutely right,I'll be pulling my broke "STOCK" shortblock out soon,Why because it made 600 whp on ten pounds of boost,and I beat the shit out of it,And I'm gonna continue to beat the shit out of after I install the new LSX Block with all forged internals,Hell I might even spring for the Oliver Rods, shooting for that grand benchmark,If you know what I mean,So guys ya better baby'um if you want'um to live...
Can you go into more details please..as I am planning on running 10lbs of boost
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:01 PM   #14
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Well said Bknblk thought of you as I read this post. 650 rwhp wont last long thats for sure.
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:24 PM   #15
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I'm at 670+rwhp on 8.5psi. The boost isn't what you need to be worried about. Total power made is what breaks things. A safe tune, and someone behind the wheel that's not a ham handed mullet, will make things last a while longer. If the operator is bound and determinded to break things, he needs to leave it stock. As mentioned above, you shouldn't mod things if you can't afford to fix it when it breaks. If you're looking for absolutes, leave the car alone.
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:47 PM   #16
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z_rocks, i believe the rev limiter on this car is not a fuel cut off limiter, but just the throttle by wire not letting you rev anymore. I do not believe they are actually using fuel cutoff like they used to do.

I could be wrong, but thats what it felt like when i accidently hit it a couple of times.
My friend's car was a C5 Z06. Hopefully that has been changed!
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:53 PM   #17
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So bottom line is keep it out of the red, have fun with it, don't kill it and I can make it last a good while.

Dog it, stay in the red, wheel hop and I will be building a new motor soon.

Fair evaluation from what has been stated? Like I mentioned above. I baby my car. I may hit the gas for 5 or 6 seconds just to feel the thrust but that's about it. I am not scared to build a new engine I just dont feel the nessisity to kill my current one if I take care of it.

Bryan
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:57 PM   #18
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Z Rocks you are absolutely right,I'll be pulling my broke "STOCK" shortblock out soon,Why because it made 600 whp on ten pounds of boost,and I beat the shit out of it,And I'm gonna continue to beat the shit out of after I install the new LSX Block with all forged internals,Hell I might even spring for the Oliver Rods, shooting for that grand benchmark,If you know what I mean,So guys ya better baby'um if you want'um to live...
Making 600rhp on auto is massive! That's like having 800 on M6 isn't it?
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:05 PM   #19
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Lingenfelter does a forged bottom end on their 650hp package and up. It is done for longevity.
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:53 PM   #20
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So bottom line is keep it out of the red, have fun with it, don't kill it and I can make it last a good while.

Dog it, stay in the red, wheel hop and I will be building a new motor soon.

Fair evaluation from what has been stated? Like I mentioned above. I baby my car. I may hit the gas for 5 or 6 seconds just to feel the thrust but that's about it. I am not scared to build a new engine I just dont feel the nessisity to kill my current one if I take care of it.

Bryan
You got it.....600 auto would be between 650 and 675 with a manual. But, that's a topic for another thread
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Old 12-23-2009, 07:50 PM   #21
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Bryan you'll be fine,just be conservative with your tune,And remember this when in the rev limiter crack the throttle,and it should last,I've just got a few to take down around my neck of the woods,So I'm gonna go ahead and load my gun with BIG BulletsBut everyone should know there limitations,And with stock internals you will always have them:(
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:02 PM   #22
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There are only 4 things the blow motors, NO Oil, over heat, over Rev or Detonation.

All of which can be controlled.

These engine are better than some of you are giving credit.

Stock engines have been taken to some pretty unbelievable power levels with Proper Care and Feeding.

No Worries Pope You can always install a larger supercharger pulley and run 5 psi instead.

Too Low a timing is bad, EGT goes up too much and it backs up into the intake charge.

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Old 12-23-2009, 11:15 PM   #23
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I used to think 550rwhp was about the limit for the ls motors. Well many of you have proven my thinking wrong time and time again. Just do a search and you will find alot more than you would imagine making 650rwhp and living well especially in the vette crowd. You have to admit that its pretty impressive to have heads, cam, and a blower at 8-10psi making 650rwhp. Lets see the Ford guys try and do that.
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:17 AM   #24
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I used to think 550rwhp was about the limit for the ls motors. Well many of you have proven my thinking wrong time and time again. Just do a search and you will find alot more than you would imagine making 650rwhp and living well especially in the vette crowd. You have to admit that its pretty impressive to have heads, cam, and a blower at 8-10psi making 650rwhp. Lets see the Ford guys try and do that.
You nailed it. That is excatally my setup. Ported heads, CAM, headers and boost.

I have asked my tuner to try and get it a little lower than 650. I would like it to settle in around 630rwhp giving me more than enough to spank a Vette.
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by old motorhead View Post
I'm at 670+rwhp on 8.5psi. The boost isn't what you need to be worried about. Total power made is what breaks things. A safe tune, and someone behind the wheel that's not a ham handed mullet, will make things last a while longer.
Very well said!!

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Lingenfelter does a forged bottom end on their 650hp package and up. It is done for longevity.
I agree with LPE for this reason. Longevity. What good is it to put all that cash into an investment only to do a tear down again and replace parts in a couple of years. Do it right, do it right the first time!
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