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Old 05-19-2008, 10:43 AM   #1
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The new Camaro V6 might be the best model of the entire lineup!

I wanted to share this with you guys, because I thought it was a very good writeup. And quite conservative as far as expectations, which raises hopes even higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guionM
....and here's why:
The LY7 3.6 V6 version of the Pontiac G8 weighs 3885 pounds, has a 256 horsepower, and 252 lbs/ft of torque. It runs 7 seconds to 60 and the quarter in the low 15s at just over 90 mph, and gets 17/25 mpg according to the EPA.
The LLT 3.6 direct injection V6 produces just over 300 hp, 272 ft/lbs of torque. In the Cadillac CTS, the vehicle weight is 3874. It does 0-60 in about 6.3 seconds and the quarter in just under 15 seconds at 95 mph. It gets 17/26 mpg.

The new Camaro will likely be roughly a similar weight as the Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO.
While the V8 versions weighed in around 3700 pounds, the Monaro CV6 had a supercharged 3.8 V6 engine, and had a curb weight of just over 3500 pounds. It had just 229 hp and 277 ft/lbs of torque. It ran 0-100K (0-62 mph) in the mid 6 second range. It came only with an automatic.
It's not a far jump to see why the V6 5 speed Camaro apparently stole the show with the focus group currently checking out preproduction 5th gens.
With nothing more than the regular V6, with 3500 pounds and the right gearing, a V6 Camaro would be a blast to drive. With over 300 pounds under the G8, it's not unreasonable for a manual Camaro to reach 60 in 6 seconds flat and possibly less with the quarter in the upper 90s.
But that's not even the top V6.
The 3.6 direct injected V6 would absolutely scream in the new Camaro.
It has over 25 more horsepower than the LT1 Camaro did. In a 5th gen, it would weigh roughly as much as the 4th gen LT1 did. Again, with the right gearing, it would make up the torque difference between the two.
In short, if Camaro ends up with the DI V6 (not even considering a possible increase in horsepower between now and next year), a 6 speed manual with good gearing, an agressive rear axle ratio, and comes in at the CV6's 3500 pounds, we should have a V6 Camaro that will roughly split the difference between the LT1 and LS1 Camaro in performance!

To top it off, the 17/26 mpg fuel economy of a DI Camaro is idenical to the 4 liter base Mustang with nowhere near the same power (the GT is rated at 15/23).
Even more impressive, this performance is available at better fuel economy than the current Evo (16/22), Eclipse V6 (16/25), VW R32 (18/23), Nisan 350Z (18/25), and matches the G37 coupe (17/26).
Even the Accord coupe (17/25) comes up short next to a 300+ hp DI V6 Camaro.
Forget about someone's arbitrary weight number. Perish the though about the new Camaro being a gas guzzling pig.
The new Camaro is shaping up to be something potentially big as long as GM gets the word out and Chevy gets people to test drive them.
And, bless their hearts, you don't need to get a top level V8 to actually have a great car! If you get the V8, you'll probally add 200 pounds to the Camaro, heap another $4-5000 hit on the sticker (not to mention higher insurence) and take a 2 mpg hit on fuel economy (and certainly more on day-to-day driving), and might even give up something on the fun factor. A DI V6 would be the best of all worlds.

I'm convinced that GM DID learn their lesson from the 4th gen.

Latest drag time on a DI CTS:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Cadillac-CT...lip-14133.html
There are only two things I would add/change:
It will handle brilliantly due to it's 50/50 distribution of it's relatively low weight.

And while quoting EPA ratings for the engine in as it is in the CTS, he didn't account for the estimated 300 lbs weight loss. (That's what I meant by conservative estimates) I think the fuel economy will go up just slightly in the Camaro.
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:58 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I wanted to share this with you guys, because I thought it was a very good writeup. And quite conservative as far as expectations, which raises hopes even higher.


There are only two things I would add/change:
It will handle brilliantly due to it's 50/50 distribution of it's relatively low weight.

And while quoting EPA ratings for the engine in as it is in the CTS, he didn't account for the estimated 300 lbs weight loss. (That's what I meant by conservative estimates) I think the fuel economy will go up just slightly in the Camaro.
Hmmm... after this weekend, I wouldn't argue with this kind of speculation...

Best regardSS,

Elie
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:06 AM   #3
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I've seen a lot of comments on the forums from various people saying that if the V6 Camaro doesn't have a sticker price of under $XYZ then it's going to be DOA, or if the V6 version doesn't cost the same as a V6 Mustang then then Mustang will kill it, etc.

Now I'm beginning to think that the V6 Mustang is sort of not the competition. It seems like Chevrolet has conceded the low-end market and has set it's sights on a more upscale buyer. Maybe it's not really fair to compare the two cars anymore because they are not aimed at the same people.

Think more about appealing to the potential V8 Mustang buyer instead, or the buyer who wants a sporty coupe that is not interested in the V6 Mustang because of it's "rental car" quality/reputation, but doesn't want a V8 because of gas prices, or insurance...

I'm beginning to think that GM is trying to separate the Camaro from the Mustang to appeal to a wider audience and not fight for the same dollars from the same people.

This could get very interesting.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:18 AM   #4
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This is AWESOME news. We all know that the V6 versions of all the pony cars is what sets it's lifespan. If our V6 is that badass, then the Camaro may reign king on that stance alone.

Hell, the V6 convertible may be the best seller of all the models...that much peppy fun, economy AND topless? Rental car fleets and housewives unite to make 30k units alone.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:24 AM   #5
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Welcome to the family 2011 Camaro V6 Convertible...
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:25 AM   #6
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Glad to hear, however, I already own two 3.6L GM's and my 'maro isn't going to be another one. V8 and I don't care what the gas prices are.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garfin View Post
Hmmm... after this weekend, I wouldn't argue with this kind of speculation...

Best regardSS,

Elie

Agreed...........I'm telling you, no dissappointment.......
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:37 AM   #8
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this is good news for those who dont want to put up with an gas tag of 5k a year
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:37 AM   #9
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Although I have no intention on purchasing the V6, I'd definately be interested in driving one; who knows? Maybe I'll change my mind. The more options the better
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:41 PM   #10
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Whoever wrote that article seems to be ignoring the fact that the DI 3.6 the Camaro gets wont be 300 horse, it will be detuned to 260.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Whoever wrote that article seems to be ignoring the fact that the DI 3.6 the Camaro gets wont be 300 horse, it will be detuned to 260.
HAHAHAHAHAHA

No it won't. Even the detuned version in the Lambda's aren't 260hp. Thanks for the laugh.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Whoever wrote that article seems to be ignoring the fact that the DI 3.6 the Camaro gets wont be 300 horse, it will be detuned to 260.
mmmmm....no? Where was that confirmed? Becuase Fbodfather responded to that 'article' with his sly "You're a wise man"...

If you're referring to that Bob Lutz article...I wouldn't put to much stake into that. The way the author wrote it, and the confusion over how Bob said what - and of course the "premium" controversy. I tossed that article into the trash almost right after I read it.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:09 PM   #13
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I do believe that if the V6 Camaro is not priced at the same level as the Mustang V6, it wll never overtake Ford Mustang sales numbers period. I don't care how popular Transformer's makes the Camaro.. Parent's still have to pony up enough money to buy their 18 year old a new car. In the case for us older folks who are enthusiasts, most of us will not settle for a V6 Camaro, no matter what the performance numbers are. I'm quite sure the V8 Camaro will knock thhe socks off of the V6 Camaro anyday...It would be silly to make a V6 as fast as the V8 for many reasons.... I am hoping the base V8 Camaro can compete against the current base Corvette in numbers and that the top dog Camaro SS will smoke the pants off of the base Corvette on a track. Ultimately, if all the statements and hype about the new V6 Camaro are true, then the marketing team should make sure every single car magazine and even popular show's like Top Gear get their hands on one to compare with all its competitors in the same price range..
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:20 PM   #14
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So from that would it be safe to assume that the DI V6 in the camaro could run low 5 secs to 60mph?
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:17 PM   #15
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So from that would it be safe to assume that the DI V6 in the camaro could run low 5 secs to 60mph?
i was thinking this too... sure seems like it doesn't it airgoya.

That means the v8 will get into 4 seconds range... which will be awesome.
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:34 PM   #16
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When the top dog Camaro will have 500+hp how can anyone be satisfied with
280-300 hp? Sorry, but thats how I feel.
The Camry's, Accords, Altimas, (family sedans) etc are approaching or already making 300hp. It would be sad to get beat at a red light by a V6 Camry or Accord in a new Camaro.
Or to be beat down by Mustang GT's.
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
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I do believe that if the V6 Camaro is not priced at the same level as the Mustang V6, it wll never overtake Ford Mustang sales numbers period. I don't care how popular Transformer's makes the Camaro.. Parent's still have to pony up enough money to buy their 18 year old a new car. In the case for us older folks who are enthusiasts, most of us will not settle for a V6 Camaro, no matter what the performance numbers are. I'm quite sure the V8 Camaro will knock thhe socks off of the V6 Camaro anyday...It would be silly to make a V6 as fast as the V8 for many reasons.... I am hoping the base V8 Camaro can compete against the current base Corvette in numbers and that the top dog Camaro SS will smoke the pants off of the base Corvette on a track. Ultimately, if all the statements and hype about the new V6 Camaro are true, then the marketing team should make sure every single car magazine and even popular show's like Top Gear get their hands on one to compare with all its competitors in the same price range..


well, one thing to keep in mind is that for pricing, you have to add some to the price of a mustang to compare. as each year goes by, inflation takes its toll. i strongly agree that the v-8 model will blow away the v-6 model, but something to keep in mind is the fact that the proposed v-6 for the new camaro will be coming out with more hp than the v-8s of the past. with greater fuel economy to boot. hell, ill take a 300hp v-6 camaro over a 295hp v-8 mustang for 6k less anyday. again with the pricing, i can almost guarantee you that each camaro model will cost slightly more than its respective mustang counterparts. that being said, i can assure you it wont be that large of a difference, (talking 1-2k at most). but when you look at the performance you are getting for that extra little bit, its not even close. 300hp v6 vs 210hp v-6
priced close to each other. not a contest

and im actually hoping for a 4 banger camaro to come out, cus a lot of the kids out there whos parents will be buying them a new car, dont know how to handle 300hp. thats why 90% of peoples first car is a junker. and plus it will come down to what the parents decide to buy as well, if they dont want their child to have that kind of hp, they can always buy a ford.
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Hmmm... after this weekend, I wouldn't argue with this kind of speculation...

Best regardSS,

Elie
Quote:
Originally Posted by MerF View Post
This is AWESOME news. We all know that the V6 versions of all the pony cars is what sets it's lifespan. If our V6 is that badass, then the Camaro may reign king on that stance alone.

Hell, the V6 convertible may be the best seller of all the models...that much peppy fun, economy AND topless? Rental car fleets and housewives unite to make 30k units alone.

I've been saying this all along. Taking into consideration the gas prices the V6 will be the best selling Camaro in the long run. As I've said before and as MerF agrees rental cars, young drivers and the cost concious will snap these 6V Verts & Coups in a heart beat!...And bless there little hearts, as this will build the foundation for the 5th Gens life span... Alowing us "V8 thunder hungry gear heads" to have our 500hp+ beast!
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:20 PM   #19
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I don't think Bob Lutz is full of sh**.

They are detuning precisely so the V6 won't be the best model in the lineup. Very simple economics of profit being much higher with a more expensive, optioned V8 model.


"In the Camaro, the 3.6 liter’s horsepower should be around 260, Lutz said, Fuel economy, he said, will be around 17 mpg city and 25 highway. That would place the V6 Camaro among best in class for a performance car."

"Most enthusiast attention has focused on the Camaro’s V8 engine, which is likely to be a 6.0-liter with about 400 hp. Lutz said the V8 will have a cylinder cutoff system that shuts down half the engine when the car reaches cruising speed. That will help it get better fuel economy. "

But Lutz said he thinks most buyers will opt for the V6 because the performance will be strong, especially when the engine is combined with a manual transmission.

“Back in the old days, if you wanted a muscle car, to get a decent one, you had to buy the V8,” Lutz said. “And if you bought the V6, you got a fairly rough, unrefined pushrod engine with low horsepower and weasely performance.

“This time, the V6 is 260-odd horsepower, four overhead cams, very smooth and decent 0-to-60-mph times. And now the V6 is in its own right a very fast, very legitimate car.”


SOURCE: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../FREE/86927553


By the way, the G8 GT (V8) gets 15 mpg city and 24 mpg hwy. Lutz says the V6 Camaro will get 17mpg/25mpg. Just like the G8, the V6's will rot on the lot, and the V8's will be sold out. 15/24 with 400hp or 17/25 with 260hp - no comparison.

s
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:23 PM   #20
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For me, I think one of the biggest determining factors is this...

Does the V8 require PREMIUM gas?
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
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For me, I think one of the biggest determining factors is this...

Does the V8 require PREMIUM gas?
You can use regular if you like, but it has been shown that the extra horsepower you get with premium, makes up for the extra cost because the car goes further on a gallon of gas. Google for more info...
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:32 PM   #22
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I don't think Bob Lutz is full of sh**.

They are detuning precisely so the V6 won't be the best model in the lineup. Very simple economics of profit being much higher with a more expensive, optioned V8 model.


"In the Camaro, the 3.6 liter’s horsepower should be around 260, Lutz said, Fuel economy, he said, will be around 17 mpg city and 25 highway. That would place the V6 Camaro among best in class for a performance car."

"Most enthusiast attention has focused on the Camaro’s V8 engine, which is likely to be a 6.0-liter with about 400 hp. Lutz said the V8 will have a cylinder cutoff system that shuts down half the engine when the car reaches cruising speed. That will help it get better fuel economy. "

But Lutz said he thinks most buyers will opt for the V6 because the performance will be strong, especially when the engine is combined with a manual transmission.

“Back in the old days, if you wanted a muscle car, to get a decent one, you had to buy the V8,” Lutz said. “And if you bought the V6, you got a fairly rough, unrefined pushrod engine with low horsepower and weasely performance.

“This time, the V6 is 260-odd horsepower, four overhead cams, very smooth and decent 0-to-60-mph times. And now the V6 is in its own right a very fast, very legitimate car.”


SOURCE: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../FREE/86927553


By the way, the G8 GT (V8) gets 15 mpg city and 24 mpg hwy. Lutz says the V6 Camaro will get 17mpg/25mpg. Just like the G8, the V6's will rot on the lot, and the V8's will be sold out. 15/24 with 400hp or 17/25 with 260hp - no comparison.

s
The V6 will NOT be "260-ish" horsepower....... the non-DI'd 3.6 is rated at exactly 260 hp. Why on earth would GM go through the expense of detuning a DI'd engine to the levels of a non-DI'd engine?????

I do think the DI'd 3.6 will be detuned slightly. I'd place money that it will come in between 280-300, and not 260.

Lutz had his engines confused when he made that statement.
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:39 PM   #23
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The V6 will NOT be "260-ish" horsepower....... the non-DI'd 3.6 is rated at exactly 260 hp. Why on earth would GM go through the expense of detuning a DI'd engine to the levels of a non-DI'd engine?????

I do think the DI'd 3.6 will be detuned slightly. I'd place money that it will come in between 280-300, and not 260.

Lutz had his engines confused when he made that statement.
His statement is:

“This time, the V6 is 260-odd horsepower, four overhead cams, very smooth and decent 0-to-60-mph times.”

If he's that confused, I don't think it's a good thing for GM. I don't believe that to be the case IMO.

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Old 05-19-2008, 06:40 PM   #24
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I don't think Bob Lutz is full of sh**.

They are detuning precisely so the V6 won't be the best model in the lineup. Very simple economics of profit being much higher with a more expensive, optioned V8 model.


"In the Camaro, the 3.6 liter’s horsepower should be around 260, Lutz said, Fuel economy, he said, will be around 17 mpg city and 25 highway. That would place the V6 Camaro among best in class for a performance car."
s
That isnt de-tuned its just not direct injected. I still think that the base engine will be the DI 3.6 without any de-tuning. It wont be even close to any other engines GM will be offering with the camaro so there wont be any problem convincing people that the V6 isnt "the best model".

V6: ~300 hp
base V8: atleast IMO ~380 hp

I dont think there will be any problem with the V6 taking away sales of the V8. The V6 is the base engine and should have the majority of the sales anyway.
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:48 PM   #25
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That isnt de-tuned its just not direct injected.

You may want to read exactly what Maximum Bob said-

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../FREE/86927553

"Lutz confirmed to Automotive News that the V6 version of the Camaro will be powered by the same high-tech V6 used in the Cadillac CTS. It’s a direct-injected, 3.6-liter four-cam V6.
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