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Camaro V6 LLT Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 05-21-2008, 04:41 PM   #1
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3.6L DOHC V-6 Ward’s 10 Best Engines Winner

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SOURCE: http://wardsauto.com/reports/2008/te...s/gm_3-6l_v-6/



Not that we didn’t like General Motors Corp.’s “high-feature” 3.6L DOHC V-6 when it launched in the Cadillac CTS for the ’05 model year.

Its initial output was 255 hp and 255 lb.-ft. (346 Nm) of torque, and there were several competing similar-displacement V-6s already making in the neighborhood of 300 hp.

Although we sometimes find ourselves wishing everyone would dial back a bit on premium V-6 output, 300 hp is the new 250 hp, just like 60 years old is the new 40.

Thanks to a decade of horsepower wars, 300-hp V-6s now are the price of entry in the premium market.

To get fully in the game for the critical new ’08 Cadillac CTS (and to upgrade the larger standard engine on the STS), GM powertrain engineers looked to gasoline direct injection, a technology quickly sweeping through powertrain-development departments on several continents.

Strap on the high-pressure (1,740-psi/120-bar) GDI hardware and fair-to-middlin’ 255 hp becomes 304 horses. And just as important, torque also is boosted by about 8%.

Just like that, the new, direct-injected variant (internal code LLT) solves probably the most noticeable shortcoming of the original variable-valve-timing 3.6L DOHC V-6: the fizzy low- and midrange torque and resultant soft throttle response. The new GDI-equipped 3.6L V-6 has torque that gets your attention at any engine speed, and the throttle pedal no longer thinks rapidly increasing its proximity to the floor is a request that should be pondered at length.

“Solid midrange pull,” says Associate Editor Mike Sutton. “Just pulls and pulls,” echoes Best Engines judge Byron Pope.

And the 3.6L DOHC V-6 likes to pull to the redline, too, and running to the 6,400-rpm power peak is a pleasure to be repeated, underscoring how essentially right GM Powertrain engineers got the noise, vibration and harshness.

We did note – and others have mentioned it, too – a boomy, low-frequency thrum at low rpm. We hear engineers were aware of the matter and are working out a fix that already may be penciled in by the time you read this.

And as we’ve noted with the latest crop of high-performance V-6s, fuel economy is not a strong suit. Despite the fact GM says GDI improves brake-specific fuel consumption by 3%, the rated 17 mpg (13.8 L/100 km) city and 26 mpg (9 L/100 km) highway figures aren’t going to get anybody too far down the road toward the new 35-mpg (6.7 L/100 km) standard in 2020. A huge points-winner with us, however: The big power can be had using regular unleaded gasoline.

But we’re talking the here and now, and GM’s latest 3.6L DOHC V-6 is a world-class engine we’d stack up against any V-6 – and it adds serious credibility to Cadillac’s goal of reclaiming its reputation for technology leadership.





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Old 05-21-2008, 06:01 PM   #2
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That chart brings a smile to my face. This engine has to be what made the 6 speed manuel camaro stand out in the test drive last weekend.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:14 PM   #3
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When was the last time an American company made an engine you would:

1. Feel comfortable pulling the revs up to red line.... and

2. Actually enjoy it?????

This engine is by far the best V6 GM has ever built. And it seems pretty solid and reliable (so far haven't heard of any issues with them since they first debuted 5 years ago).

This makes the Camaro even more appealing to the import crowd to prefer the "high technology" of DOHC, 24V, VVT, DI, and all the other initials over pushrod power.

I may just give the V6 a chance if it's as good as the disciples who drove the V6 manual Camaro say it is.

Aweseome job GM. Way to give the V6 a whole new reputation
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:18 PM   #4
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The new GDI-equipped 3.6L V-6 has torque that gets your attention at any engine speed, and the throttle pedal no longer thinks rapidly increasing its proximity to the floor is a request that should be pondered at length.
Gotta start changing terminology a bit. I'm pretty sure the DI engine doesn't HAVE a throttle, and that's part of why it's more efficient -- a closed throttle introduces lots of pumping loss. I think "gas pedal" would be the more accurate term.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:47 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneyTone View Post
That chart brings a smile to my face...
What? You mean the outrageously flat torque curve?
I knew there was a reason I liked this engine... Nice find, Camaro5. Great read!

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Originally Posted by theholycow View Post
Gotta start changing terminology a bit. I'm pretty sure the DI engine doesn't HAVE a throttle, and that's part of why it's more efficient -- a closed throttle introduces lots of pumping loss. I think "gas pedal" would be the more accurate term.
This is going to sound dumb (just a forwarning), but don't ALL engines HAVE to have a throttle? Throttle, as in that little flap that turns and lets more air in?
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:06 PM   #6
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What? You mean the outrageously flat torque curve?
I knew there was a reason I liked this engine... Nice find, Camaro5. Great read!


This is going to sound dumb (just a forwarning), but don't ALL engines HAVE to have a throttle? Throttle, as in that little flap that turns and lets more air in?

Yes. I think he just had things mixed up a bit. Most modern engines have done away with the throttle cable, hence the term "drive by wire" technology. The actual throttle still exists, and will untill the 4 stroke internal combustion engine is completely extinct.

The way they've eliminated the throttle cable is by using a computer controled motor on the throttle flap and a potentiometer (or rheostat) on the gas pedal. As you push the pedal down, instead of mechanically pulling a steel cable, the pedal turns what is essentially the same thing as the volume control on your stereo receiver. This sends a specific voltage signal to the car's ecm and other computers in engine management, controlling everthing from the throttle itself to the throttle position sensors, fuel injection, timing, spark and everything else. Since electricity travels at the speed of light, any engine with drive by wire technology will have faster throttle response than the exact same engine with an old fashioned throttle cable.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:25 AM   #7
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That chart brings a smile to my face. This engine has to be what made the 6 speed manuel camaro stand out in the test drive last weekend.

Ya, that blue line on the chart is the "it just pulls and pulls" part. Totally linear horsepower delivery. No peaks, no valleys, ideal.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:27 AM   #8
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This makes the Camaro even more appealing to the import crowd to prefer the "high technology" of DOHC, 24V, VVT, DI, and all the other initials over pushrod power.
On the other hand, it will kind of suck when the camaro is the new car to get for the ricers, and they destroy a beautiful car with 15 different unpainted bodymods.

Then we will be the ones going, "Yeah but we liked it before everyone else did."

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Old 05-22-2008, 12:28 AM   #9
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This makes the Camaro even more appealing to the import crowd to prefer the "high technology" of DOHC, 24V, VVT, DI, and all the other initials over pushrod power

Yes and not many imports or domestics have DI (direct injection) right now.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:42 AM   #10
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What? You mean the outrageously flat torque curve?
I knew there was a reason I liked this engine... Nice find, Camaro5. Great read!
Those chart lines are what all engines strive for as far as linearity

Thank you, sir!

Quote:
This is going to sound dumb (just a forwarning), but don't ALL engines HAVE to have a throttle? Throttle, as in that little flap that turns and lets more air in?
The fact that I know this will expose me for the car geek I am. My brother had a BMW Z4 and he explained to me that there was no throttle, that the valves were computer controlled to open more or less acting just as the old throttle plate has forever. The Infiniti G37 engine (new in 07) uses this same technology - there is no throttle plate, no throttle body, not actuated by a cable or by wire and servo. All engine valve controlled. Welcome to the future!
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:11 AM   #11
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The fact that I know this will expose me for the car geek I am.
Car geek alert Car geek alert Car geek alert Car geek alert
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:33 AM   #12
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Car geek alert Car geek alert Car geek alert Car geek alert
I like cars, I really really do!
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:33 AM   #13
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What? You mean the outrageously flat torque curve?
This is going to sound dumb (just a forwarning), but don't ALL engines HAVE to have a throttle? Throttle, as in that little flap that turns and lets more air in?
No throttle plate. The intake is wide open at all times. It's kinda like a diesel engine with spark plugs and lower compression. The gas pedal operates the fuel injectors, not an intake restriction. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection it can run as lean as 65:1 (hooray for gas savings!). It doesn't say how rich it can run.

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Yes. I think he just had things mixed up a bit. Most modern engines have done away with the throttle cable, hence the term "drive by wire" technology. The actual throttle still exists, and will untill the 4 stroke internal combustion engine is completely extinct.
Diesel engines, which I'm pretty sure qualify as "4 stroke internal combustion engines", also do not have a throttle plate or throttle body.

You say that most modern engines are drive-by-wire? I thought it was still relatively uncommon, though I don't know that. My VW is DBW and I don't like it.

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the valves were computer controlled to open more or less acting just as the old throttle plate has forever.
This is news to me. I hope it's not true and the engine really does operate by enriching or leaning the mixture. Restricting the intake (whether at the intake manifold with a throttle, or at the intake valves as described) is an unnecessary energy loss for a DI engine.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:34 AM   #14
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Camaro5, I think your brother was misled or confused by the salesman. I've read that BMW claims that their newest NA engines can run without a throttle, but the idle quality and emissions at idle are unacceptable so they use one.

The LLT also has a normal throttle body. You will probably have to wait for HCCI or electrically actuated valves before you can get rid of it.

On the bright side, I believe that when a DI engine goes into its ultra-lean-burn mode the throttle is open pretty wide relative to the load. So while the LLT still has a throttle, it spends more time open that it would on an LY7 (the same engine with port injection).

The DIs ultra-lean-burn mode is a great illustration of the need for drive-by-wire.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:05 AM   #15
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No throttle plate. The intake is wide open at all times. It's kinda like a diesel engine with spark plugs and lower compression. The gas pedal operates the fuel injectors, not an intake restriction. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection it can run as lean as 65:1 (hooray for gas savings!). It doesn't say how rich it can run.
I'm sorry, mate. Though I don't doubt that you know what you're talking about...this isn't the case for GM's 3.6 DI. It has a throttle plate, and it moves. Read this or at least open it and search for "throttle".

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...FV6/08_LLT.doc
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:41 AM   #16
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Found this pic over on CZ28 and didn't see it here...which 3.6 do you think this is?
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:06 AM   #17
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why have i never seen that before???!?!?!?!?!!
Can you give us the link cause i cant find the thread?

Nevermind, found it.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:22 AM   #18
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why have i never seen that before???!?!?!?!?!!
Can you give us the link cause i cant find the thread?
It was buried in the thread about the production line pics...

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/show...=607253&page=2

post #26...there isn't any other info other than the pic...so I was just curious if anyone else had some input.

EDIT: more photos here --> http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4207
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:58 AM   #19
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This fact will expose ME for the science geek that I am. Throttles are used on jet engines as well as rocket engines and work in similar fashion to the way they do on newer engines. They've been using these types of "throttle" mechanisms for decades.

I don't think we need to change our terminology just because the hardware has advanced in our cars.

P.S. Throttle is also a verb!
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:45 AM   #20
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I'm sorry, mate. Though I don't doubt that you know what you're talking about...this isn't the case for GM's 3.6 DI. It has a throttle plate, and it moves. Read this or at least open it and search for "throttle".
Drat. Well, it was a nice hope, anyway.

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I don't think we need to change our terminology just because the hardware has advanced in our cars.

P.S. Throttle is also a verb!
Well, I was talking about an engine where there is no need to variably limit the air intake opening (or "to do any throttling"), but apparently GM's DI V6 is not such an engine. Such engines do exist -- for example, all diesel engines. I'm pretty sure that some other manufacturers' GDI engines also have no ability to limit the incoming air volume.

Folks, I stand corrected. GM's DI is NOT throttleless. I'd assume that it does open the throttle a lot more than a traditional gasoline engine, though, so maybe it still has some of gains found in a throttleless GDI engine.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:41 PM   #21
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BMW Valvetronic & Nissan VVEL

Here you go my friends...


The motivation behind our patented Valvetronic technology was simple: to enable the engine to breathe more easily. Our engineers believed that this would allow for increased power output and optimized fuel efficiency, and they were right. It was accomplished by varying the lift height of the valves to regulate intake instead of using a traditional throttle. At lower engine loads, the valves only open a small amount, and at full power they open completely.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...WPtfhQPZGVdw==


And here:

Nissan says about 35% of the parts are unique to the 3.7L VQ, and the major new addition is the electronically adjusted variable valve lift (Variable Valve Event and Lift), imparting a “throttleless” effect not unlike BMW AG’s Valvetronic, which also markedly reduces pumping losses by essentially throttling the engine with the intake valves.

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2008/te...ssan_3-7l_v-6/
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:16 PM   #22
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Here you go my friends...


The motivation behind our patented Valvetronic technology was simple: to enable the engine to breathe more easily. Our engineers believed that this would allow for increased power output and optimized fuel efficiency, and they were right. It was accomplished by varying the lift height of the valves to regulate intake instead of using a traditional throttle. At lower engine loads, the valves only open a small amount, and at full power they open completely.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...WPtfhQPZGVdw==


And here:

Nissan says about 35% of the parts are unique to the 3.7L VQ, and the major new addition is the electronically adjusted variable valve lift (Variable Valve Event and Lift), imparting a “throttleless” effect not unlike BMW AG’s Valvetronic, which also markedly reduces pumping losses by essentially throttling the engine with the intake valves.

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2008/te...ssan_3-7l_v-6/
Honda's VTEC does the exact same thing that Valvetronic, VVEL, VVT, VVT-i, and all the others do. That does not complicitly exclude the existance of a throttle on the intake manifold. In fact, Honda was the first to bring variable valve lift height and timing to mass production in the early 1990's, and their cars still had cable throttles.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:43 PM   #23
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Honda's VTEC does the exact same thing that Valvetronic, VVEL, VVT, VVT-i, and all the others do. That does not complicitly exclude the existance of a throttle on the intake manifold. In fact, Honda was the first to bring variable valve lift height and timing to mass production in the early 1990's, and their cars still had cable throttles.
Varible valve timing and lift have been around, but not INFINITELY varible.

This explanation below explains both - Valvetronic and VVEL are the extreme modern version of the earlier systems which now seem primitive compared to infinite lift control.

VTEC (which stands for Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control) is an electronic and mechanical system in some Honda engines that allows the engine to effectively have multiple camshafts. As the engine moves into different rpm ranges, the engine's computer can activate alternate lobes on the camshaft and change the cam's timing. In this way, the engine gets the best features of low-speed and high-speed camshafts in the same engine.



Valvetronic and VVEL

Several engine manufacturers are experimenting with systems that would allow infinite variability in valve timing. For example, imagine that each valve had a solenoid on it that could open and close the valve under computer control rather than relying on a camshaft. With this type of system, you would get maximum engine performance at every rpm range. Something to look forward to in the future...

SOURCE: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question229.htm

Like I already said, welcome to the future!
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