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Old 05-21-2008, 06:40 PM   #1
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Thumbs down Why the Camaro is Doomed!!

the opinions stated here are not from TFord so dont flame me (too hard). I saw this article and wanted to get you guys opinions.

Many want to ignore it. Others are aware but don't care. These gas prices will dictate future cars - there's no doubt about it. Here's an editorial written that I couldn't help but bring over to FQuick for people to comment on. Hit the jump for the full read!

Why the 2009 Camaro is Doomed
By Eric Peters, Automotive Columnist

Motorheads don’t want to hear it; refuse to believe it — but ugly realities are coming down hard on the ‘09 Camaro that will very possibly cause GM to pull the plug before the first one ever rolls off the line.

Doubt that? Consider the stillborn rear-wheel-drive next generation Chevy Impala — nixed because of concerns within GM about the possibility of meeting the pending (2012) 35 mpg fuel economy edict recently passed by Congress. A lighter front-drive car with a V-6 instead of a V-8 can make the cut; a V-8 RWD Impala can’t. So it’s gone. So is the talked-about next generation GTO. And the future of the G8 sedan looks not so good. GM is openly talking about scaling back the entire Pontiac division — and ending its role as a performance brand.

No bull; not my opinion. Just facts.

Now consider the 2009 Camaro — and the world in which it will have to swim. Gas prices are already surging toward $4 per gallon for regular unleaded. And Camaro’s not even here yet. By the time the car reaches production status in about eight months or so, we may very well be at $5 per gallon.

Maybe more.

At the same time, the buying power of the dollar is falling down the well — so everything is becoming more expensive, not just gas. And most of us are not making more money to compensate. Quite the opposite. Inflation and income stagnation are hitting us hard. Those of us who still have jobs and have been able to maintain the same income we had a year or so ago are few, thankful — and nervous. Buying a new car is not on our agenda. And buying a frivolous new car even less so. Camaro is not an exotic; it is a "Joe Sixpack" kind of car — so middle class and working class buyer skittishness is no small thing.

GM is well aware of these facts — which are going to kneecap Camaro (and any car like it) on the consumer level. Whatever the projected sales potential was two years ago should probably be cut in half. Bet your bippie that the bean counters within GM have thought about this, too.

That’s bad enough — and by itself could be sufficient to make going ahead with Camaro in 2009 about as sensible as building something like a Series 62 Cadillac would have been in 1979.

But wait, there’s more. Don’t forget the 10,000 pound Tallboy bomb that’s about to fall onto GM’s head (and ours) in the form of the 35 mpg CAFE edict. That changes … everything. The recession, crippling gas prices and declining buying power of the dollar are merely the coupe de grace.

A V-6 Camaro could maybe meet the current 27.5 mpg CAFE requirement for passenger cars without major engineering changes/expenses or hitting buyers with a "gas guzzler" surcharge that would bump the purchase price of the car up by $1,000 or more.

But 35 mpg? Only a few four-cylinder economy compacts and hybrids make it under that bar. Anything much over about 3,200 pounds with an engine larger than 3 liters is getting iffy. With a 300-plus hp V-8 engine and rear-wheel-drive?

Forget it.

Don’t believe it? Chew on this:

The current Ford Mustang GT — a car very similar in layout/power and so on to the pending ‘09 Camaro — manages just 17 mpg in city driving and 26 mpg on the highway. That’s with the 4 liter V-6 engine, by the way. The GT’s 4.6 liter V-8 (300 hp) slurps it down at the rate of 15 mpg in the city and 23 mpg on the highway. To survive 35 mpg CAFE, the V-8 Mustang GT would have to somehow nearly double its current average fuel economy. How is this going to be achieved, exactly? Think Ford is worried about the Mustang’s viability?

You’d better believe it.

The new Dodge Challenger is in even worse shape, CAFE wise. Its wonderful 6.1 liter V-8 won’t last long in this world, given city mileage of 13 mpg — and highway mileage that isn’t even out of the teens (18 mpg). Yes, a V-6 version is coming, but the most efficient engines of this size/type that Chrysler has available - like Ford — don’t come close to delivering 35 mpg.

Camaro’s in the same pickle. Neither the base V-6 version nor the high-powered V-8 model have a prayer of achieving CAFE compliance. If they’re produced, buyers will be facing huge "gas guzzler" surcharges that will only add to the growing roster of negatives arguing against making a purchase — from $75 fill-ups to the general uselessness of cars of these type, beyond their ability to provide a good time.

And here’s the deal: Chrysler’s already on the hook; the commitment to production has been made. It will have to at least try to make a go of it. For awhile. Ford has a strong buyer base for the Mustang; a case can be made that even with gas guzzler fees and generally awful times, economically speaking, it’s worth trying to hold the line — at least, for the moment.

But Camaro?

GM no longer has a sure bet buyer base; the name has been out of circulation for almost seven years now. That is a long time, regardless of other external issues, such as gas prices. Rebuilding a brand/make of car is tough in the best of times. In bad times, it is a fool’s errand. And it’s a luxury that cash-strapped, no longer number one GM cannot afford to indulge. If Camaro sinks — as all signs indicate it will — GM will lose a ton of money. Remember that unlike Challenger (which is "spun off" the existing Charger sedan) GM has had to invest a great deal in what amounts to a brand-new platform/tooling and so on to make this happen. Big sales are needed to make it up. It increasingly looks as though that is extremely unlikely to happen.

Which is why GM may just abort the whole thing before it ever sees the light of day.

You wait and see.

Source: http://www.motorists.org/blog/techno...aro-is-doomed/
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:43 PM   #2
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Which is why GM may just abort the whole thing before it ever sees the light of day.

Not a chance in hell of that happening. Besides, as has been discussed, CAFE is a corporate average, not an individual vehicle goal.

This guy is moron, what else is there to say?
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:59 PM   #3
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Not a chance in hell of that happening. Besides, as has been discussed, CAFE is a corporate average, not an individual vehicle goal.

This guy is moron, what else is there to say?
umm... that the whole impala is exactly that... the Impala isn't going to RWD because americans still buy the whole FWD thing... we are a culture that doesn't like change all that much... FWD was not accepted too well when it first debuted, but now just about all the cars on the road are FWD. Switching back to RWD would be the same thing... this guy is an idiot nuff said...
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:59 PM   #4
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That's why Maximum Bob did a jet roll over the Camaro focus group because he's going to kill the whole program before they even make one car?
Yeah and all the changes at Oshawa will get tossed in the garbage before they even produce one car?


Bwahahahaaaaa, get f*&kin' real, Eric Peters.


The Camaro may not last forever and ever but they will be produced for a few years a least, book it.
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Old 05-21-2008, 07:10 PM   #5
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My thoughts mimic fastball's. It's a credit assigned to all the models (and classes?) within the company...so the MPG the Camaro loses gets made up by the volts/hybrids and not to mention I know I read somewherre the companies can trade/buy/sell CAFE "credits" to each other.

Another thing I didn't like at all was the comparisons he uses...historically speaking Dodge engines are as efficient as...hell there's no analogy that covers it...they suck and always have. Ford is only marginally better. I refer back to my '91 vert that got over 20 MPG on the highway (5.0L TPI) with no modifications...it just ran well. Show me a 5.0L Mustang or a Chrysler that came close (even the V-6 cars) in the era.

Not to mention the designs going into the AFM (right acronym?), etc...GM knows about CAFE and has known it was a potential issue since the inception.

I dunno, there's just too many holes in this article to me. Maybe I'm biased (ok, definitely) but still I don't think it's the doomfest he is portraying it to be if you take in all of the facts.
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Old 05-21-2008, 07:16 PM   #6
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My thoughts mimic fastball's. It's a credit assigned to all the models (and classes?) within the company...so the MPG the Camaro loses gets made up by the volts/hybrids and not to mention I know I read somewherre the companies can trade/buy/sell CAFE "credits" to each other.

Another thing I didn't like at all was the comparisons he uses...historically speaking Dodge engines are as efficient as...hell there's no analogy that covers it...they suck and always have. Ford is only marginally better. I refer back to my '91 vert that got over 20 MPG on the highway (5.0L TPI) with no modifications...it just ran well. Show me a 5.0L Mustang or a Chrysler that came close (even the V-6 cars) in the era.

Not to mention the designs going into the AFM (right acronym?), etc...GM knows about CAFE and has known it was a potential issue since the inception.

I dunno, there's just too many holes in this article to me. Maybe I'm biased (ok, definitely) but still I don't think it's the doomfest he is portraying it to be if you take in all of the facts.
I agree...the media should not be allowed to publish crap like this unless its 100% fact. I just think the guy wants some time in the lime light!
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Old 05-21-2008, 07:41 PM   #7
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:10 PM   #8
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Is there any movement going to get our elected officials to stop meddling with our vehicles? If we want to buy a large SAFE car without thousands of dollars of unnecessary equipment, then let us!

This is like the retards thinking that Ethanol takes carbon out of the atmosphere so everyone is jumping on the bandwagon to make ethanol (getting subsidies to do so) by ceasing production of needed FOOD crops as well as torching (converting to carbon with fire) rainforests to plant crops that are 1/10th as good at converting carbon as the rainforest...
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:26 PM   #9
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I think this is nothing more than a creative writer can spin a web of BULL making it seem as if he knows what he is talking about.

But rest assured BULL SHTT farmer. Many people, many times smarter than you, have already made the choices you speak of.

my favorite is how he thinks the Camaro will die due to the fact that it doesn't match 35mpg. A good example of not understanding the CAFE regulations.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:26 PM   #10
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The bottom line is the almighty dollar. If a product is going to sell and create a cash cow, nothing will stop it from being produced. Not even this so called CAFE standard.

The 2010 Camaro is going to be a huge success despite rising fuel costs. Judging by the number of SUV's and trucks that are still rolling along our streets and highways, neither government interference nor a perceived oil crisis hasn't altered too many people's mode of transportation.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:29 PM   #11
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Is there any movement going to get our elected officials to stop meddling with our vehicles?

As I've gotten older and more attune to the political world (which generally makes my stomach churn), I've found that the vocal minority will get more attention from our politicians than the quiet majority. I think most of us who prefer to drive a real car and not a buggeyed electric golf car are the same ones who vote our concience, but don't scream and cry and yell about it (if you get what I'm trying to say without actually saying it ).

I just heard today the person who will most likely be the presidential cadidate for said crybaby minority that (and I'm paraphrasing to save space) us as a country need to quit using so much air conditioning in the summer time, get rid of vehicles that are "needlessly large", and start cutting back on energy consuming entertainment...... and the crowd was goin nuts!

If we don't get people back into power who are on OUR side of this, we are just as much to blame for not being vocal about our personal beliefs. I really feel compelled more than ever to get more involved in the political process just to keep such a wave of nonsense from actually becomming legislature.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:29 PM   #12
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The bottom line is the almighty dollar. If a product is going to sell and create a cash cow, nothing will stop it from being produced. Not even this so called CAFE standard.

The 2010 Camaro is going to be a huge success despite rising fuel costs. Judging by the number of SUV's and trucks that are still rolling along our streets and highways, neither government interference nor a perceived oil crisis hasn't altered too many people's mode of transportation.
I know a few people who got rid of their trucks because they couldn't afford the fuel, but going from a truck/suv to a Camaro would be enought of a step up for them in efficiency that they would be pleased. They would be particularly pleased to have 300HP, RWD, and not be driving an import.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:32 PM   #13
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As I've gotten older and more attune to the political world (which generally makes my stomach churn), I've found that the vocal minority will get more attention from our politicians than the quiet majority. I think most of us who prefer to drive a real car and not a buggeyed electric golf car are the same ones who vote our concience, but don't scream and cry and yell about it (if you get what I'm trying to say without actually saying it ).

I just heard today the person who will most likely be the presidential cadidate for said crybaby minority that (and I'm paraphrasing to save space) us as a country need to quit using so much air conditioning in the summer time, get rid of vehicles that are "needlessly large", and start cutting back on energy consuming entertainment...... and the crowd was goin nuts!

If we don't get people back into power who are on OUR side of this, we are just as much to blame for not being vocal about our personal beliefs. I really feel compelled more than ever to get more involved in the political process just to keep such a wave of nonsense from actually becomming legislature.

Is this the same canidate that wants to hand earth orbit and beyond over to our enemies because he needs money to pay for schools?
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:37 PM   #14
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Is this the same canidate that wants to hand earth orbit and beyond over to our enemies because he needs money to pay for schools?
Yes. The same one who wants to "neggotiate" with said enemies.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:42 PM   #15
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well - I guess everyones' entitled to his or her opinion.

The bad part? They don't need to have a clue as to what they're talking about. And of course, they have nothing at stake.

Yup -- SURE we're gonna abort a car that has captured the hearts and minds of people worldwide. (YES -- worldwide -- you should see the crowds when we sent the concepts to shows in other countries.....)
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:47 PM   #16
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No worries. This is just more of the yellow journalism that has experienced a resurgence of late. With more competition throughout the media, journalistic outlets of all sorts are feeling greater competition. To attract an audience flooded with so many choices, they have to turn to the most outrageous statements. I have realized that if I took everything the media said at face value, I would be very depressed indeed. Just take a moment to do a reality check, and you'll realize everything isn't as bad as its made out to be.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:47 PM   #17
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well - I guess everyones' entitled to his or her opinion.

The bad part? They don't need to have a clue as to what they're talking about. And of course, they have nothing at stake.

Yup -- SURE we're gonna abort a car that has captured the hearts and minds of people worldwide. (YES -- worldwide -- you should see the crowds when we sent the concepts to shows in other countries.....)
Not only that but to throw away all the work that's been done already just to meet a standard that's YEARS away is pretty silly.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:54 PM   #18
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GM will not abort the Camaro for any reason, but the success of this platform will depend almost entirely upon its fuel economy. Over the last few days of not posting, I've watched oil barrel prices continue to skyrocket. I love the idea of my first V8 being my dream Camaro, but the reality of this car is that I may never own a V8. I'm sorry to say that fuel economy is now a dictating factor for me. Like thousands of other car buyers, I will be lured more to the Camaro for its visual appeal, modifying it to look fly and ride smooth. 300 horsepower may have to be enough unless the V8 gets a very high fuel efficiency rating.

We can all blame CAFE for this, but the truth is that our economy is stumbling. We are all poorer as a result. In the meantime, 4-bangers and hybrids are eating up the marketshare of performance machines like the Chevrolet Camaro. In effect, we will spend less on our beloved pony cars than originally anticipated, but we will spend more at the pump. We can all do this, but the cost is higher than dollar signs. I'm coming out of college in a jobless economy with an already meaningless degree since the institutionalized collegiate system demands that everyone gets a degree. I will be paying for a degree that barely guarantees me retail employment and somehow I'm going to miraculously afford a Camaro V8 plus gas, rent, utilities, and loan payments. As it is now, I love fast cars, but I don't love them enough to sleep in them at night.

I am just like every other college senior, fearing a system that had at least some promise before the last presidential campaign but has lost all vigor since. International food prices rise, including those domestically, in part due to an approximated quarter of American corn going toward ethanol that is not improving the cost of gas in America. In the meantime, politicians tell oil executives that their profits are unacceptable, and yet they are accepting those profits, only to tax them. We won't see that money. It will all go to Iraq and Afghanistan (of course not to the veterans who served, though). In the meantime, people like me will graduate from college with the options of military service or retail to afford our post-college trailers, scooters, and extensive loans.

I'm sorry about the rant, but I'm so frustrated and stressed about college graduation and my prospects of paying for the impossible. Even if I can afford the Camaro, I can't afford the gas, but neither is as important as housing, food, and paying off loans. Millions of people are in my position, and this car, as gorgeous and class-dominating as it may be, faces serious problems. Chevrolet really messed up by killing the Camaro the first time. Now it is being entered into a V8-hostile market. If it doesn't miraculously get 4-banger mileage, the Camaro has no hope.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:58 PM   #19
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I find it ironic that congress brings the oil company execs to "testify" each time prices have spiked and they use the same tired old excuses and congress tell them it's unacceptable and does NOTHING.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:01 PM   #20
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I find it ironic that congress brings the oil company execs to "testify" each time prices have spiked and they use the same tired old excuses and congress tell them it's unacceptable and does NOTHING.
I guarantee that Congress will tax the oil companies thoroughly this time, but no one will benefit from those taxes.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:04 PM   #21
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As I've gotten older and more attune to the political world (which generally makes my stomach churn), I've found that the vocal minority will get more attention from our politicians than the quiet majority. I think most of us who prefer to drive a real car and not a buggeyed electric golf car are the same ones who vote our concience, but don't scream and cry and yell about it (if you get what I'm trying to say without actually saying it ).

I just heard today the person who will most likely be the presidential cadidate for said crybaby minority that (and I'm paraphrasing to save space) us as a country need to quit using so much air conditioning in the summer time, get rid of vehicles that are "needlessly large", and start cutting back on energy consuming entertainment...... and the crowd was goin nuts!

If we don't get people back into power who are on OUR side of this, we are just as much to blame for not being vocal about our personal beliefs. I really feel compelled more than ever to get more involved in the political process just to keep such a wave of nonsense from actually becomming legislature.
I think his article was one of the biggest loads of BS that I've read recently. I agree with your thoughts for the most part, the big problem is that if we decide to get "vocal" enough to try and make some changes in the idotic legislation that has been passed (and more that will be passed), who is going to listen? Certainly not any of the current crop of idiots in the U.S. Congress, they'll go along with anything to keep their beloved office. The real problem we have is the continued creep of this country towards socialism and restrictive legislation, the government should "watch over us and assure our well being" from the cradle to the grave. What a load of BS that so many people in this country have fallen for. We are blessed with a spineless Supreme Court that should have been declaring legislation as un-constitutional for the last 50 or more years, we have career politicians that do nothing all of their life but "slop at the trough" of public funds (that's the tax dollars we pay), they never create or produce anything constructive their entire life (so they contribute absolutely nothing to the US economy), simply saddle us with yet more assinine legislation. We are blessed with a liberal mainstream media that uses falsehoods, half truths, and innuendo to promote the agendas of these idiots at Disney On The Potomac. If you have an interest in seeing things improved in this country, for whatever good it will do, you need to start talking to the media, your government representatives, friends, relatives, even the misguided fool that wrote this article (didn't he write another real winner of an article a few months ago?). Start petitions at car club meetings, car shows, anywhere you can get a significant number of people willing to sign petitions to let those running the country know that the silent majority is pissed and we're not going to take it anymore.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:16 PM   #22
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he acts like muscle cars are the only vehicles that get bad gas mileage... I see plenty of excessively big SUV's every day, but they couldn't possibly be the problem, right?? Not to mention the Camaro will have the 4 cylinder shutoff system. This guy needs to get some real information.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:17 PM   #23
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And in other news... david cook wins american idol.


who cares what this guy has to say?
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:21 PM   #24
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And in other news... david cook wins american idol.


who cares what this guy has to say?





I think what the article is pointing out is that V8s are associated with poor gas mileage, much like diesels are associated with dirty emissions. Even if it isn't entirely accurate, most car buyers don't know as much about cars as we do. Regardless, it is impossible to argue that V8s are better than I4s when it comes to fuel efficiency. Even with AFM, GM V8s don't get exceptional gas mileage. AFM only kicks in when the car reaches cruising speed. If it were manual, I would agree that AFM would make a big difference because then the driver could decide how many cyliders to run at any given time, but GM doesn't give consumers the option. I think that being able to do that would be great, but that doesn't seem to be under consideration.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:27 PM   #25
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he acts like muscle cars are the only vehicles that get bad gas mileage... I see plenty of excessively big SUV's every day, but they couldn't possibly be the problem, right?? Not to mention the Camaro will have the 4 cylinder shutoff system. This guy needs to get some real information.

Is this idiot some kind of anti-musclecar treehugger?
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