Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Cam Motion
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V8

Forced Induction - V8 V8 Supercharger, turbo, nitrous discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-12-2009, 02:13 PM   #1
Mike Norris
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 591
Norris Motorsports / Miranda Built Procharger M6 - 643 RWHP/585 RWT

Hey All,

I do not have a dyno sheet to post, but I helped another local shop put the combination together. It is a D1SC with a 4.5" pulley, on of my base SC cams, ARH LT's with cats and Magnaflow axle back.

The first base run was 558/517 running her to about 5000 RPM and the fuel was off the scale rich. I made a few changes in fuel and timing and the next run was 643/572 and running out of fuel. I said to myself "holy crap" and backed her down a bit to be sure she was as safe as I could get it. The next run was 625/585 with about 10-12* on top.

For now we are going to pulley her down and add a BAP and try to be at a nice 600/560 area safely. This was on pump gas and no meth making about 11-12 PSI. It also had a set of either 21" or 22" wheels on it.

What I did notice was that the intake air temps are actually higher then a TVS 2300 since the filter is right on top of the header. On the big number runs I had a fan blowing onto the filter area and the temps were in the 125* area on the IAT which was close to the TVS 2300 I did earlier in the day.

Overall an evil car.

On the TVS2300 car, it had ARH LT's and a Borla exhaust and made 540/530. All in all a good forced induction day

Mike Norris
Mike Norris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2009, 04:10 PM   #2
PatrickfromMD
 
PatrickfromMD's Avatar
 
Drives: Navigator/Corvette/2010 Camaro
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 415
Nice results !
But How do you plan to keep the intake temps in check with the hood closed?
I'd consider this sort of setup if could be done in coordination with a ram induction hood
__________________

***56K miles and still going strong***
2SS/RS IOM ext w/cyber grey stripes, tinted windows, IO int Auto
ProTorque prototype Converter, Chuck Mosello of Westchester Corvettes Custom Tune
T&T installed SLP Longtubes, Powerflow X Pipe, and Powerflow axle back
JL 10W3 in custom side sub box, new door tweeters, Alpine 5ch 600 watt
T&T configured ACS front Fascia w/ heritage grill, splitter, dual color halos, , led markers, taillight bezels , all accented in CGM
Gary Custom Z vented fenders. Vararam ver 2
PatrickfromMD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2009, 06:45 PM   #3
Mike Norris
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 591
Thanks Patrick

I mentioned the IAT to make a point at how bad a location the air filter is on the Procharger. It can make a good amount of power and just needs a nice intake system.

I do not think a vented hood will help as the first run was made with the hood up and no fan on the filter area. So it seems the heat generated off the headers will be quite a feet to overcome without getting the filter in a better area.

What I did like out of the tuning sessions was learning that the Procharger set up in relation to the brackets and drive will support some good power.

Mike Norris
Mike Norris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2009, 08:15 PM   #4
the rich dude

 
Drives: Getting 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,140
Theres soo much air going threw the engine compartment when your driving its not even funny. Won't be an issue.
the rich dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2009, 11:55 PM   #5
ilovemytdi
 
ilovemytdi's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS RS LS3 yellow w black stripes
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: louisville ky
Posts: 31
track times coming soon?
__________________
Rally Yellow LS3/2SS/RS/BLACK INTERIOR/BLACK RALLY STRIPES

1100, Preliminary order accepted 8/24/09
2000, Order accepted by GM 9/10/09
3000, Order accepted by production control 9/15/09
3300, Order scheduled for production TPW 10/12/09
4000, Available to ship 10/15/09
4200, Shipped 10/19/09
6000, Delivered to the ME! 10/29/09
ilovemytdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 12:29 AM   #6
ZZcamaro


 
Drives: 2SS w/ ZZ427 Package!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,706
Please do not take this the wrong way....Those are great numbers, but...

How long do you expect a motor like that to hold together?
I think the same thing when I see these high priced packages putting out 600-650HP, but they dont address the transmission or rearend.

All that power can be fun, but it does you no good when the intake charge is blowing by the piston rings, or you break a drive axle...

That is why ZZ Motorsports has begun a "supercar" style of project that will be ready for the spring 2010 cruise season. You will be looking at a fully developed Camaro with one of the highest HP ratings, and all backed by a warranty!!!
...We plan to address all of these issues which I mentioned.
ZZcamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 07:01 AM   #7
pharmd
Master of Medicine
 
pharmd's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 VW GTI, 2007 TBSS, 2002 Camaro
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Morehead, Kentucky
Posts: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZcamaro View Post
Please do not take this the wrong way....Those are great numbers, but...

How long do you expect a motor like that to hold together?
I think the same thing when I see these high priced packages putting out 600-650HP, but they dont address the transmission or rearend.

All that power can be fun, but it does you no good when the intake charge is blowing by the piston rings, or you break a drive axle...

That is why ZZ Motorsports has begun a "supercar" style of project that will be ready for the spring 2010 cruise season. You will be looking at a fully developed Camaro with one of the highest HP ratings, and all backed by a warranty!!!
...We plan to address all of these issues which I mentioned.
One of the positive issues of a centrifugal vs a roots style is even though it makes that huge amount of power and is pushing fairly high boost levels, is that the shortblock only see's those #'s for a short time period (at peak). The boost is progressive with rpm, so even though its making say 10psi, it only does that from say 5500rpm - limiter, so the shortblock is subjected to much less (average power and psi)...vs roots where you are full boost pretty much off idle, the torque is like 500rwtq from 2G on nearly, ie the power is more instant and the shortblock is subjected to more power over more rpm (more average power and psi)....obviously there will be a limit but I think most would agree that if power output is in the same ballpark (say 550rwhp roots vs say 575-600rwhp centrifugal) the centrifugal is easier on the shortblock...I may be over generalizing but I think this is the general thoughts.

TO the OP, in general congrats! how many psi was the TVS making earlier in the day?
__________________
pharmd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 07:22 AM   #8
Mike Norris
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 591
The rich dude, maybe there is but I do not see how having the filter on top of the headers can be good at all. I saw higher IATs with the procharger going down the road then the TVS2300. Otherwise a great product.

ilovemytdi, with the new wheels and tires on this car, I do not see that happening unfortunately.

ZZ, if you go back and read my posts more carefully you will see that I agree that it was too much for a stock engine. That is why I pretty much stopped there and tried to pull her back some. It was supposed to be 7-8 PSI and ended up quite a bit more. Procharger is sending another pulley and belt to slow this down. I have built several different cars over the past 25 or so years like you mention and completely understand a balanced car.

pharmd, the TVS2300 was in the 5-6 PSI area.

Thanks again

Mike Norris
Mike Norris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 09:30 AM   #9
vsgls1
 
vsgls1's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 GMC Sierra
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Palm Bay, FL
Posts: 424
Send a message via AIM to vsgls1
Mike is well known to tune "conservatively" with longevity in mind if you car isn't completely built or a track only car. That is why Mike has many loyal customers. My stuff will last, can't say that with confidence about others I read about on the interweb. Nice job, good to see where the fuel systems maxes out at.
__________________
Keith 2SS/RS MN6 in CGM. Delivered 6/22/09. Blown 7/29/09. Sold 12/6/10.
07 GMC Sierra
vsgls1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 10:37 AM   #10
ZZcamaro


 
Drives: 2SS w/ ZZ427 Package!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Norris View Post
The rich dude, maybe there is but I do not see how having the filter on top of the headers can be good at all. I saw higher IATs with the procharger going down the road then the TVS2300. Otherwise a great product.

ilovemytdi, with the new wheels and tires on this car, I do not see that happening unfortunately.

ZZ, if you go back and read my posts more carefully you will see that I agree that it was too much for a stock engine. That is why I pretty much stopped there and tried to pull her back some. It was supposed to be 7-8 PSI and ended up quite a bit more. Procharger is sending another pulley and belt to slow this down. I have built several different cars over the past 25 or so years like you mention and completely understand a balanced car.

pharmd, the TVS2300 was in the 5-6 PSI area.

Thanks again

Mike Norris
I understand that you noticed it, and were making it more conservative... I was more implying to some other companies out there who send cars out there with 650HP and no other modifications that support it.
I know your reputation, and you put out some quality cars, I was expressing a concern about a couple of other vendors whom think that as long as it survives 30-50k miles, that is enough!!
ZZcamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 08:11 PM   #11
the rich dude

 
Drives: Getting 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZcamaro View Post
Please do not take this the wrong way....Those are great numbers, but...

How long do you expect a motor like that to hold together?
I think the same thing when I see these high priced packages putting out 600-650HP, but they dont address the transmission or rearend.

All that power can be fun, but it does you no good when the intake charge is blowing by the piston rings, or you break a drive axle...

That is why ZZ Motorsports has begun a "supercar" style of project that will be ready for the spring 2010 cruise season. You will be looking at a fully developed Camaro with one of the highest HP ratings, and all backed by a warranty!!!
...We plan to address all of these issues which I mentioned.
if you make or resource parts out that will make the tranny and rearend stronger I would love to buy them from you.
the rich dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 02:51 PM   #12
LJo
Procharger Tech
 
LJo's Avatar
 
Drives: n/a
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Procharger
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Norris View Post
On the big number runs I had a fan blowing onto the filter area and the temps were in the 125* area on the IAT

Why wouldn't you put the fan on the intercooler?

Do a log on IAT while you are driving down the street or going down the highway on a full throttle pass. I bet you see a much better number. IAT numbers are always going to be high on a dyno, its the nature of no air velocity under the car.

Lance
LJo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 02:54 PM   #13
ZZcamaro


 
Drives: 2SS w/ ZZ427 Package!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by the rich dude View Post
if you make or resource parts out that will make the tranny and rearend stronger I would love to buy them from you.
They are coming.....oh my boy....they are coming!!
ZZcamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 03:09 PM   #14
LJo
Procharger Tech
 
LJo's Avatar
 
Drives: n/a
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Procharger
Posts: 15
We do lots of air flow testing as a kit is being developed. That being said the inlet on the Procharger system was designed to offer the most air flow relative to the inlet temps provided. You need to remember the further away you move the inlet you trade air flow for temp. With that you have to run smaller pulleys and turn the supercharger harder to pull in the same amount of air, which is also going to create more heat.

In all honesty dyno IAT's are rarely calculated for us. We run temp probes in at least 8 different spots around the inlet, before and after intercooler, and in numerous places in the engine bay to find the best location for the air filter again taking into account air temp/pressure loss. Then we take the car outside on the road and test. We test on rainy days, cold mornings, hot afternoons and any other weather we can. We log miles and miles of data to conclude a system that makes HP. Safe reliable HP.

I just want to reassure everyone that we have done our testing, and we are very confident in our system making great power, stock or otherwise.

Lance
LJo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 07:10 PM   #15
Mike Norris
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 591
Hi Lance, good to see you on here. I am not bashing the product as I was more surprised to see the TVS2300 have lower IAT's at all ranges. Here is a little more background for you.

I had two fans on the car, one on the intercooler and the other just blowing in the general area of the engine bay with the hood open.

On the first run the IAT's were at 100*F at the beginning of the run and 156*F at the end of the run.

For the second run I moved the second fan closer to the drivers side are blowing towards the air filter area and at the end of the run it was at 127*F.

As a comparison with the TVS2300, on the last run I saw the temps at 95*F at the begining of the run and 117*F at the end of the run.

Driving down the road cruising the TVS2300 stayed at a fairly steady 105*F and the Procharger at a fairly steady 115*F.

FYI it was probably 90-95*F outside and 80-90% humidity that day. Not the best conditions.

All in all the kit is very good and I will continue to seel, install and tune them for sure. I can see what you mean about drawing air across a longer inlet tract possibly presenting its own issues for sure. I would just prefer a nice molded tube to locate the filter behind the drivers headlamp area and away from the exhaust manifolds or headers.

Thanks and feel free to call me if need be.

Mike Norris
Mike Norris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 10:22 PM   #16
Z_Rocks

 
Drives: a Jet :-)
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,850
@Procharger

Couldn't the head unit be positioned on the passenger side like Corvette where the intake would be facing to the front of the car? This way the intake could be placed in the front.
Z_Rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 11:14 PM   #17
ZZcamaro


 
Drives: 2SS w/ ZZ427 Package!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z_Rocks View Post
@Procharger

Couldn't the head unit be positioned on the passenger side like Corvette where the intake would be facing to the front of the car? This way the intake could be placed in the front.
No room there...That is the fuse box and brakes....
ZZcamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2009, 12:11 AM   #18
the rich dude

 
Drives: Getting 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZcamaro View Post
They are coming.....oh my boy....they are coming!!
good to hear! Please keep me posted via PM or a updated post. When do you think tranny and rear end parts will be avialable for purchase? Looking to spend $$$$ ASAP
the rich dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2009, 12:21 AM   #19
ZZcamaro


 
Drives: 2SS w/ ZZ427 Package!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by the rich dude View Post
good to hear! Please keep me posted via PM or a updated post. When do you think tranny and rear end parts will be avialable for purchase? Looking to spend $$$$ ASAP
No promises on Timeframe...but the stuff we are developing will be good to 1000HP. So there wont be any worries when you stomp on it, except the cost of tires.
ZZcamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2009, 01:21 PM   #20
LJo
Procharger Tech
 
LJo's Avatar
 
Drives: n/a
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Procharger
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Norris View Post
Hi Lance, good to see you on here. I am not bashing the product as I was more surprised to see the TVS2300 have lower IAT's at all ranges. Here is a little more background for you.

Thanks and feel free to call me if need be.

Mike Norris
Mike,

Glad to see you guys making some power with the kit. I know you weren't bashing. I know you have the knowledge and understand what I was trying to convey. I just want everyone on the forum to understand the trade off of nice cold air in a forced induction scenario.

Keep up the good work Mike

Lance
LJo is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pick Your Song for Delivery Day joepitt 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 179 09-22-2009 07:39 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.