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Old 05-24-2008, 07:06 PM   #1
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gas prices.

i know a muscle car, really isnt a muscle car, without a big american V8. But, personally knowing executives in the Exxon/Mobile Corp. i have it on good information that the end of the gas price inflation is now where near over. i dont know about you, but i think ill be purchasing a V6.

and with all this new news coming in about how good the V6 really turned out to be, i think ill be more than happy with my car.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:32 PM   #2
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I plan on getting the V8, but I admit the gas prices are lessening my interest in that somewhat. If I didn't live only 3.5 miles from work I'd never consider a V8.

If the V8 can get me a little over 20 mpg CITY I'll be much more happy since my current car only get's 21-25 regularly in the city.

Otherwise when 2009 rolls around and gas is over $4 a gallon (it's currently $3.76 here) the V8 may look less and less attractive.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:43 PM   #3
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Cool Two views on this...

I have two views on this.

The negative way to look at this is to fear that GM may not be able to sell enough V8s (or supercharged Z28s) with $4-5/gal gas. This will impact overall sales volume. I worry that the sales envelope for this car is slowly closing. I don't think anyone believes we are going back to $2/gas anytime (or ever?).

On a positive note, if the V6 is really as good as reported, perhaps we have a winner in the V6 even if the V8 is a sales dud. A 300bhp V6 with good/excellent mileage could be a real winner in this economy. People want to drive a "cool" car... and if a Camaro gets the same mileage as a V6 Accord... well, I think the sales will do well, very very well. My only concern is that GM will need to advertise the HELL out of the mileage numbers.

As much as I want to see ads that boast about "4/500 BHP" supercharged Z-28 PWR! I think it would be a poor campaign... if they emphasize fuel mileage, and let the design sell on looks, then I think the Camaro's return will do well.

My only advice, don't wait to buy a V8... if you *really* want a V8, buy it on launch, as I can foresee the big dog getting taken out behind the shed if gas goes to $200/bbl.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
i know a muscle car, really isnt a muscle car, without a big american V8. But, personally knowing executives in the Exxon/Mobile Corp. i have it on good information that the end of the gas price inflation is now where near over. i dont know about you, but i think ill be purchasing a V6.

and with all this new news coming in about how good the V6 really turned out to be, i think ill be more than happy with my car.
You wanna give me there names and addresses?

History has shown that these cars seem immune to gas prices...back in the late 70's were some of the best-selling years for Camaros, and Mustangs, etc. Plus...a bigshot at Ford remarked recently (when asked about Camaro) that history shows us something else...when more cars are added to this "muscle car" soup, the pot gets bigger, so to speak. The market stands a good chance at actually growing, to make room for both Camaro and Mustang.

Personally - I have no doubts that the V6 model will sell 2 or 3, maybe even 4x the numbers that the V8 does. But I don't think Camaro as a whole is in the least bit threatened...gas is something we're all going to have to learn to deal with, untill we get "other" fuels to substitute it.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:56 PM   #5
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Well one of the deciding factors in me deciding on the V6 rather than the V8 has been gas prices. While I'm not the Camaro enthusiast that many of the members here are, I am still a huge Camaro fan and believe in keeping to the whole American Muscle idealogy. I just think that a big hunkin' V8 could bankrupt me at the pump and insurance office.
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Old 05-24-2008, 08:01 PM   #6
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Gas prices really don't bother me much at all. When you think about it, $4 to ship 2 tons of metal 20-30 miles is really pretty cheap. Gas is still a pretty small portion of my expenses, and I live 30 miles from work for now (that will change as soon as the lease on my apartment is up, because I haaaate sitting in traffic) so gas prices have very little bearing on what I choose. I'll almost certainly go for the V8, but the V6 is tempting for its lower purchase and insurance costs. If gas prices go higher, there are plenty of things I'd sooner sacrifice, like going to the movies. $10 to see something once that I can pay $10-15 to see unlimited times on DVD? You gotta be kidding me. Where's the outrage about that?

Also, the nice thing about higher gas prices is less traffic on the road. As gas prices rise, my commute gets shorter. So I'm really not sweating this much.

Oh yeah, and I'd say the Camaro isn't a muscle car. Its a pony car.
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Old 05-24-2008, 08:06 PM   #7
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Oh yeah, and I'd say the Camaro isn't a muscle car. Its a pony car.
Eh, same basic concept, just a different degree of the same opinion.
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Old 05-24-2008, 08:15 PM   #8
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Eh, same basic concept, just a different degree of the same opinion.
I'm not so sure. I'd say a muscle car has to have a V8 engine. The original idea behind the muscle car was the engine from a full size car in a midsize body. Pony cars a smaller sporty RWD coupes and convertibles. They have always been mostly V6 powered, with a few top end models getting V8s. I think that is the real difference here.
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Old 05-24-2008, 08:16 PM   #9
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I would gladly take the prices in the states. Up here in Canada gas is ~$5/gallon, plus our camaros will be another $5k+ at least, even with a near par dollar. And we're the ones building the car and making the gas!!!!(ok, not all of it, but we do have a bunch of oil up here) Then there's the guys in Europe who are paying double what we are almost.
I know that for myself the fun-factor of a V8 outweighs the fuel mileage/prices by a long shot.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:26 PM   #10
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they will ration out the gas at that point.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:38 PM   #11
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they will ration out the gas at that point.
Uhh sorry to burst your bubble, if gas gets rationed congress will get stormed. Instead gas will just go up in price .

Instead of complaining people just need to start preparing and planning for it.

My plans still include buying a V8, because even at $7/gal (estimated 2010 gas price) I will have a motorcycle that I can commute with. Not only that but I am CURRENTLY carpooling.

Whining only makes the problem worse. Solving the problem for your specific lifestyle is what will drive prices back down.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:44 PM   #12
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If you dont think they will ration gas you need to go look this up.

gas, WILL be rationed eventually once the price has gone up to the point where people find it more reasonable to invest in alternate sources of fuel.

so as gas prices go up, the demand has an inverse effect, going down, as people find alternative fuel cells.

and durring the transition of gas to whatever source we end up using, it WILL be rationed. and Congress? what do you think people would like more, rationing, or a complete dry up of fuel sources.

the prices arent going to go down until speculation of probable gas chrisis stop. and that speculation is just heating up.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:50 PM   #13
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I hate to admit that gas prices are making me think twice about getting a camaro. For me, it's v8 or nothing.
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Old 05-24-2008, 10:00 PM   #14
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If you dont think they will ration gas you need to go look this up.

gas, WILL be rationed eventually once the price has gone up to the point where people find it more reasonable to invest in alternate sources of fuel.

so as gas prices go up, the demand has an inverse effect, going down, as people find alternative fuel cells.

and durring the transition of gas to whatever source we end up using, it WILL be rationed. and Congress? what do you think people would like more, rationing, or a complete dry up of fuel sources.

the prices arent going to go down until speculation of probable gas chrisis stop. and that speculation is just heating up.
Not that I don't follow your logic...but if the market works the say it should, and there truly is no price gouging and/or conspirasy going on; less demand for gas due to finding alternatives (be it efficiency, less usage, or altogether substitutes) SHOULD drive the price down. "Supply and demand" is the phrase that's being shoved down our throats lately, yes?

And rationing should have a more direct relation to supply, not prices. I can't see how prices would force the rationing of gas...
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Old 05-24-2008, 10:07 PM   #15
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the reason prices are up right now, is not because we use more gas now than we did last year at this time, when it was much lower. It is because of the increased use by other countries such as china who are using more and more. As a country the United States is not used to other global powers using the % of gas that we use, and im not saying china uses as much as the US now, but they are increasing their demand with the fastest growing economy in the world.

This is as simple as supply and demand (on a global and confusing scale). BUT like stocks, prices actually can move due to speculation.
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Old 05-24-2008, 10:43 PM   #16
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Drum the drum of mute all you want; gas is a HUGE issue that will come to a head (I predict) sooner than later with the emerging markets ramping up their usage and refineries running at the max. Prices will go through the roof and many many Americans and others that live here (unless they're driving hybrid or better) won't even be able to afford to drive. Anywhere. Habits changing will only do so much because the lack of a major public transportation system, even in HUGE metropolitan areas like L.A. That would be a big help in setting up a PTS, but using millions of dollars government doesn't want to spend, if they even have it.

It doesn't help that muscle cars have the stigma of being big gas guzzlers with comparable fuel economy of even bigger S.U.V.'s (which many owners are now dropping like flies). So you can be in cool school and act like gas prices aren't a big deal, but remember they're not a big deal to you. Personally, I like to drive, and I'm not going to curtail my driving to be able to even afford to drive at all, I'll just buy a more fun and fuel efficient car if the Camaro doesn't cut it fuel economy wise (Mini Clubman S). Living in suburban L.A. it's a necessary evil that I be on the road 24/7, that's just the way everything is setup around here as is my life with freinds, family, etc. If I could have a fuel efficent V8 Camaro, trust me, I'd be gunning for that, but I have to be practical minded in regards to my choice of personal transportation with consideration to the current issues that effect fuel prices, etc.

We all know GM has the technology in the 5thgen that will win over many new buyers that would have otherwise assumed that this car would be a real gas hog, but that four-banger Camaro will have to come sooner than later with the aforementioned gas problem as well as CAFE.
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Old 05-24-2008, 11:45 PM   #17
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ok first off, if you personally know some of the reps for those oil companies...WHY DON'T YOU TELL THEM TO QUIT GOUGING THE PRICE! :P

2nd, I thought all models were supposed to have that Active Fuel Management technology???!???!!!
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:08 AM   #18
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2nd, I thought all models were supposed to have that Active Fuel Management technology???!???!!!
If it happens on the V6; I believe it'll be the first time, EVER, a manufacturer has been able to do it on an OHC/DOHC engine.
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:12 AM   #19
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If it happens on the V6; I believe it'll be the first time, EVER, a manufacturer has been able to do it on an OHC/DOHC engine.
Don't know what the Accords V6 setup is but it also has AFM (Honda's version).
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:27 AM   #20
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I have the old 1996 Honda 250 bike to ride to work and take care of local trips. It get 60 miles per gallon, cruises at 60 mph if there is no wind.
No cargo, no highway speeds, no weather protection...
( 18 degrees was too cold to ride to work, but it was only 8 miles ) but 60 mpg helps cut the fuel bill, some.

The S-10 ZR2 ( -16 city/ -19 hwy ) does a lot worse on gas than the Z71 Sierra 5.3 ( 18.5 city / 22 hwy -flat/ no wind)

The 86 Mustang was a 2.3 (88 hp) that is slowly being rebuilt with a 5.0 and 650 holley-- not a project I would ever do again , but I started it when gas was under $2 and before the Camaro was confirmed.
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:55 AM   #21
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I just moved the thread...It's become much less "Camaro-Oriented" than I think was intended. No help from me, I'm sorry to say.


Scotsman, you're right. I don't keep up with those brands at all. So Honda has beat GM to the punch...aw well - at least we know it's possible.

It's called VCM on the Honda engine. Uses little 'pins' I guess that disconnect the rockers from the cam followers. It can switch from 6 to 4 to 3 cylinders depending on load. And on 3 cylinders, one full bank of the engine is shut down...
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:56 AM   #22
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Don't know what the Accords V6 setup is but it also has AFM (Honda's version).
I think that's the first and only V6 with it (VCM -Variable Cylinder Management), and it's not available with manual transmission. It runs in 3, 4, and 6cyl mode. I read a user review somewhere and they said they hated it.

================================================== =====

Here's some: "good try with the VCM but it's terrible, this really brings down the performance of the car."

"Enjoy the way the car handles especially the power of the V-6. I think Honda made a big improvement in the design of the car. The Vcm systems totally ruins the car. What a big disappointment. I had rather not have it and sacrifice the mileage.... "

Get rid of cylinder deactivation on coupe, it actually slows down when try to accelerate.

VCM ruins a great car
Date Posted: 04/30/2008 By: Joe Collier

I am very disappointed in this car. I am disappointed in the ride. The VCM is very rough. It lunges when shifting

VCM feature makes it feel like the car is constantly hunting for gears at 60-70 mph. Fuel economy is horrendous -- 17 in the city at best, even despite the VCM. Honda says car is "operating normally" so if you think you're going to do better, it's not likely.

Not completely satisfied with VCM. Too much shifting especially when in cruise control

I am so disappointed in this car. The VCM system has basically ruined what would otherwise be an exceptional car. Contrary to what Honda says, the VCM transitions are NOT seamless, and IS noticeable to the passengers. I am not optimistic about Honda fixing this, and am ready to take a loss intrading the vehicle in on something different with only a few hundred miles on it.

If you are thinking of buying a 2008 Honda Accord 6 cylinder, I would suggest you think twice and drive it more than just a test drive. The VCM is terrible. I would not buy the car again because of this "feature". The service department told me there was nothing they could do and to go back to sales. The surging (even at times on cruise) is terribly annoying. Otherwise, the car is outstanding.

Well, after having the car for a month I have to say the experience so far is very disappointing. The VCM is so annoying - hunting between modes at highway speeds. The surging/lurching is noticeable and not seamless and makes my wife ill - she thinks I am doing something - I have it on cruise!! Fuel "economy" is not as good as on 2004 coupe we had - only 27-28 on the road.

They go on and on...

SOURCE:

http://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/...C%7C486f6e6461

v
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Old 05-25-2008, 01:04 AM   #23
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ok first off, if you personally know some of the reps for those oil companies...WHY DON'T YOU TELL THEM TO QUIT GOUGING THE PRICE! :P

2nd, I thought all models were supposed to have that Active Fuel Management technology???!???!!!
Sigh, I hate it when people who haven't the slightest grasp of economics make mindless accusations like that. The price of oil right now reflects a number of things: the demand from consumers worldwide, which is ramping up steadily, the demand from investors, which is also ramping up, the value of the dollar, which is plummeting, and the supply of oil, which is pretty much maxed out (drilling new fields is insanely expensive and practically illegal now). Given all of those conditions, the price of oil is exactly what it should be. $130 accurately reflects the market rate for oil as the conditions exist right now. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean anyone is gouging you. Even the idiotic legislators that are holding these show trials of the oil execs for votes from people like you have openly admitted they have absolutely no evidence the oil companies are gouging. The fair price may not be the price we're used to, but fair is fair.
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Old 05-25-2008, 01:09 AM   #24
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I just moved the thread...It's become much less "Camaro-Oriented" than I think was intended. No help from me, I'm sorry to say.


Scotsman, you're right. I don't keep up with those brands at all. So Honda has beat GM to the punch...aw well - at least we know it's possible.

It's called VCM on the Honda engine. Uses little 'pins' I guess that disconnect the rockers from the cam followers. It can switch from 6 to 4 to 3 cylinders depending on load. And on 3 cylinders, one full bank of the engine is shut down...
Great minds think alike Check out those user reviews I posted
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:00 AM   #25
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Why I actually like $4 gas:

Yes, you read that right. No, it isn't some teaser to get you to read something unrelated. I really mean that. I kinda like $4 gas. First, I want to say I think it is a fair price to pay. We're paying far less than most of the rest of the world as it is. Given the ramp up in demand from developing countries and the weak dollar pitted against maxed out supplies, gas prices have rightfully increased. Actually, when you think of it in terms of spending $4 to ship two tons of metal and your precious human cargo 20-30 miles, it really isn't a bad deal at all. It is simple economics and no, no one is gouging you. You are not a victim. This is just the way the world works, and I actually think this one may be working in our favor. Here's why:

1) Less cars on the road. Yesterday I did my regular commute home from work during rush hour. Usually I loathe Friday evening commutes, as the 57 is usually jammed solid with cars going up to take the 210 to the 15 to get to Los Vegas. I expected it to be even worse this week as it was the beginning of the traditionally driving-intensive Memorial Day weekend. However, it seems gas prices put an end to many people's Holiday sin city trip plans, and it was smooth sailing nearly the entire way home. I hate sitting in traffic going nowhere, so it felt wonderful to just cruise on home. I'll pay $0.14 a mile for that privlege, thank you.

2) Less SUVs. I really don't know what the exact percentage is of people who buy SUVs and actually need its capacities. Statistics usually lie anyway. I do know though that the majority of SUVs on the road are bought for the sole purpose of transporing one single person to and from work each day (like my dad). As far as I know, there are three reasons this happened: people like the power, high, upright driving position, and other characteristics of SUV driving (my dad), because they were the popular driving fashion at the time, because they "need" room for 7 people and massive cargo as soon as they have their first kid (please, overreact much?), and, because everyone else has one, you need one because anything smaller is just a death sentence in the event of an accident with someone else's SUV. Yes, that's right, the SUV fad was partly a safety arms race, because bigger is safer. Well, now SUVs are not fashionable, there are plenty of other vehicle types that offer plenty of passenger and cargo room, and since no one else is driving them, you don't need to either to be safe. Now the only reason to get one is if you actually need something to tow, haul, or go offroading. Or if you're like my dad and just really like that SUV driving experience. Just as we no longer fear death by nuclear holocaust, we have less reason to fear death by SUV driven by cell-phone talking, cappuchino swilling driver. Yay!

3) Less smog. OK global warming is complete crap. Just accept that you've all been duped by some chubby washed up politician and move on with your lives. But you know what is real? Smog darn it. Smog you can actually see. It sucks, but its actually getting better. When I was in elementary school the sky was definitely more brown than it is now, and there were even days when we couldn't play outside because the air wasn't safe. Things have gotten a lot better as technology has improved our smog control systems, and if gas prices keep reducing how much people drive their cars, we'll see even more improvement.

4) More mass transit. OK maybe this is just a hope, but if gas prices keep climbing maybe we'll get more serious about public transportation. I liked public transit even before gas prices climbed. Taking the metro in to LA or Pasadena is way better than dealing with the crazy drivers, insane traffic, and sky high parking rates. If I can take light rail somewhere, I usually will. Sadly, LA's light rail system is pretty pathetic. I'm hoping gas prices will give it a nice shot in the arm and I can take it even more places. My fingers are crossed.

5) More innovation. Necessity is the mother of all invention, and invention has slacked off a bit lately. I mean 100 years ago a day didn't go by when some random guy invented something that revolutionized your life. Today, innovation is about limited to fitting another blade on your razor. (Now introducing the Mach 16, by Gillette. 16 blades means you can shave your entire face in just one swipe. Only $55 for a replacement set of blades....). Maybe not anymore. I see a revolution on the horizon, and perhaps it has started already. Sure we had duds. Yes corn based ethanol kinda did very bad things to our food commodities market. But those are just awkward first steps. Edison's proverbial first 99 failed light bulbs. Screw hybrids with their piddly 40 mpg. We're talking exciting stuff here. Purely electric cars going a full day's commute on a simple electrical charge. Ethanol made from garbage and some type of grass you don't eat. Hydrogen fuel cells? There's stuff on the horizon we haven't even heard of yet I'm sure. Mark my words, $4+ gas is going to start a tidal wave of great inventions, and it is going to be a very exciting time to be alive. Mankind has always been able to rise above the challenges that face us, and this will be no different.

Everybody sing it with me:

There's a great big beautiful tomorrow
Shining at the end of every day
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow
And it's just a dream away
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