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Old 09-17-2009, 10:41 AM   #1
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maf tune/no open loop nice flat 12.5 fuel trim

Is this a problem running in maf tune only?
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Old 09-18-2009, 08:55 AM   #2
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Turned off the ve table all of a sudden i have plenty of top end the maf was tuned by a pro oyea no more fluttering at 2100 rpm and other part trottel.I would imagine this will cange ahd I will need speed density with a cam and nitrous.
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Old 09-19-2009, 04:50 PM   #3
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There's no problem running MAF only, Ive been doing it for a while to. Some people believe that the car has more response with both VE and MAF working but thats debatable.
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:40 AM   #4
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definatly not more responsive with the ve table ran a 12.6@111 1.95 on drag radials if only I could get off the line 12.2 possable
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Old 09-22-2009, 08:13 PM   #5
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I prefer both the VE and MAF be tune in conjunction whenever is possible. A member Bluecat released a very powerful tool for VE tuning on HPtuners forum. We use it almost daily.
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:42 PM   #6
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Ve tuning is wasted extra work on the LS3 that is not neccesary. Run MAF only. Go read up more on it on HpTuners.com/forum.
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Old 09-27-2009, 12:45 AM   #7
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Ve tuning is wasted extra work on the LS3 that is not neccesary. Run MAF only. Go read up more on it on HpTuners.com/forum.

I mean you no personal disrespect, but This comment sounds foolish to anyone who has any real experience tuning GM Cars for the simple fact the the maf is used during steady state and the computer uses VE for throttle transitions.

If they are both tuned properly the car will run better than ever.

The VE table is a very important part of the tune.

I will also note that VE tables can usually be left alone as long as the engine has not been altered with bigger heads and Camshaft or Supercharger, but when these are changed out, VE tuning is necessary.

Take the information for what it is worth.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:01 AM   #8
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I mean you no personal disrespect, but This comment sounds foolish to anyone who has any real experience tuning GM Cars for the simple fact the the maf is used during steady state and the computer uses VE for throttle transitions.
I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. The MAF is not only used in steady state and the VE is not used to determine fueling during throttle transitions. Both the MAF and VE do the same thing, they estimate the airflow entering the engine, the VE is usually checking the the values from the MAF so there is some redundancy in the system in case the MAF were to fail. On the stock tune the VE is ignored above 4,000RPM and it uses MAF only. Do you believe that when above 4,000 rpm there is no longer a need for any transient fueling due to throttle transitions? or maybe there is another set of parameters that account for throttle transitions.

During throttle transitions the transient fuel calculations account for the changing impact factors and evaporation of fuel from the intake and valves. There is always a film of fuel on the intake valve since the injectors spray the back of the intake valves to keep them cool, the trick is keeping this film constant through changing pressures and air velocitys in orded to keep fuel delivery precise. It is the transient fuel calculations job to handle this not the VE tables.


I'm not sure if the car will run better with both the MAF and SD determining the total airflow but I am planning to experiment with this myself and I will definitely post my findings. Supposedly this used to be the case with older less sensitive MAF sensors and slower computers but today the MAF sensors and computers are so accurate it makes no difference. We'll see. . .
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:15 AM   #9
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I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. The MAF is not only used in steady state and the VE is not used to determine fueling during throttle transitions. Both the MAF and VE do the same thing, they estimate the airflow entering the engine, the VE is usually checking the the values from the MAF so there is some redundancy in the system in case the MAF were to fail. On the stock tune the VE is ignored above 4,000RPM and it uses MAF only. Do you believe that when above 4,000 rpm there is no longer a need for any transient fueling due to throttle transitions? or maybe there is another set of parameters that account for throttle transitions.

During throttle transitions the transient fuel calculations account for the changing impact factors and evaporation of fuel from the intake and valves. There is always a film of fuel on the intake valve since the injectors spray the back of the intake valves to keep them cool, the trick is keeping this film constant through changing pressures and air velocitys in orded to keep fuel delivery precise. It is the transient fuel calculations job to handle this not the VE tables.


I'm not sure if the car will run better with both the MAF and SD determining the total airflow but I am planning to experiment with this myself and I will definitely post my findings. Supposedly this used to be the case with older less sensitive MAF sensors and slower computers but today the MAF sensors and computers are so accurate it makes no difference. We'll see. . .
I guess my point was overlooked, I just tried to keep it simple, the Maf is most active and VE is referenced during quick throttle transitions, especially at engine speeds below 4000 rpm, because of the what I call the slinky affect.

I did not want to get in to trasinent fueling too complicated to explain.

The point was VE tuning is necessary when a change to Hard parts affect VE.

I have tuned all different ways, you can get good results either way for most apps, but aren't we here to find Perfection?

I do agree with your technical explaination.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:40 AM   #10
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I'm running MAF only on my G8 GXP (LS3) and I haven't had any issues.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
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I guess my point was overlooked, I just tried to keep it simple, the Maf is most active and VE is referenced during quick throttle transitions, especially at engine speeds below 4000 rpm, because of the what I call the slinky affect.

I did not want to get in to trasinent fueling too complicated to explain.

The point was VE tuning is necessary when a change to Hard parts affect VE.

I have tuned all different ways, you can get good results either way for most apps, but aren't we here to find Perfection?

I do agree with your technical explaination.
So do you think MAF-only tuning would be okay without touching the VE if my only mods are gonna be the Vararam Tune-only Intake and Headers? Sounds like MAF only tuning is the way for me to go until I get a cam.

Also, for HPTuners, what should I scan to see the feedback? (I'm guessing create a histogram with MAF Frequency vs. LTFT?)
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:53 AM   #12
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So do you think MAF-only tuning would be okay without touching the VE if my only mods are gonna be the Vararam Tune-only Intake and Headers? Sounds like MAF only tuning is the way for me to go until I get a cam.

Also, for HPTuners, what should I scan to see the feedback? (I'm guessing create a histogram with MAF Frequency vs. LTFT?)
MAF only will work great with those two mods. The size of the cam will dictate whether or not VE tunning will be nessacary. A very large cam will be hard to tune MAF only. With that being said I just tuned my car MAF only after installing a cam, the specs are 230's duration on a 112lsa.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:16 AM   #13
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So do you think MAF-only tuning would be okay without touching the VE if my only mods are gonna be the Vararam Tune-only Intake and Headers? Sounds like MAF only tuning is the way for me to go until I get a cam.

Also, for HPTuners, what should I scan to see the feedback? (I'm guessing create a histogram with MAF Frequency vs. LTFT?)
In most cases Maf tuning works fantastic.

Ted.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:31 PM   #14
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Turning off the VE table is fine. Tuning the MAF is much better
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Old 10-07-2009, 03:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
I mean you no personal disrespect, but This comment sounds foolish to anyone who has any real experience tuning GM Cars for the simple fact the the maf is used during steady state and the computer uses VE for throttle transitions.

If they are both tuned properly the car will run better than ever.

The VE table is a very important part of the tune.

I will also note that VE tables can usually be left alone as long as the engine has not been altered with bigger heads and Camshaft or Supercharger, but when these are changed out, VE tuning is necessary.

Take the information for what it is worth.
Running MAF only means you turn OFF the VE table, period. There is no set RPM used in this instance to pickup data from the VE table. Its turned off. The VE table does not have to be used and is not required to be tuned unless you plan to use it. If you are planning to do so I recommend you tune it REGARDLESS of the type of upgrade you do to the engine. ANY upgrades should (don't require) have tuning done.
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:02 PM   #16
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It's my understanding that the LS3 VE tables are virtual tables with HP Tuners. Is that the case with other tuning software?
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:12 PM   #17
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It's my understanding that the LS3 VE tables are virtual tables with HP Tuners. Is that the case with other tuning software?
Yes and hence the reason for using the Bluecat (EDITED!) software OR delete the VE table all together running MAF only.

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Old 10-07-2009, 04:15 PM   #18
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What is tunercat software?
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Old 10-07-2009, 05:20 PM   #19
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What is tunercat software?
Another decent software I have used on LT1s

I don't know if they support the new stuff.
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Old 10-07-2009, 05:37 PM   #20
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Typo: Tunercat (LT1 tuning software, oldschool stuff, sold my software/hardware 2 years ago). I meant to type Bluecat software. This is the username of the member who came up with the program to tune the Virtual VE tables everyone is questioning to use. Give it a look see. It does alot of the VE work for you. Literal plug and play. I've done both and enjoy the MAF only tunes since the LS3 MAF is far more responsive/capable than previous models. The days of Speed Density only when you want to install a cam/blower are really non-existent unless you are running at an extreme level.

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Old 10-14-2009, 12:28 PM   #21
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Turned off the ve table all of a sudden i have plenty of top end the maf was tuned by a pro oyea no more fluttering at 2100 rpm and other part trottel.I would imagine this will cange ahd I will need speed density with a cam and nitrous.
SD is a waste of time and is like going backwards in time ... your ve is not worth tuching for a cai and headers .
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:41 PM   #22
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Though updating your VE/MAF tables is NOT required with CAI/Headers it is RECOMMENDED to update them with ANY performance part upgrade.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:50 PM   #23
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Any of you guys seen any hp from going either direction of the 12.5? On our older carb'd stuff, some combos like to go leaner while others like to go fatter. Just curious...
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:17 PM   #24
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Though updating your VE/MAF tables is NOT required with CAI/Headers it is RECOMMENDED to update them with ANY performance part upgrade.
True but with lt's and CAI a slight MAF adjustment will cover the slight changes in fuel trims ... by not adjusting the VE ...
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:25 PM   #25
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True but with lt's and CAI a slight MAF adjustment will cover the slight changes in fuel trims ... by not adjusting the VE ...
Right, and if for any reason say your LTFT's (Long Term Fuel Trims) are positive it gets added to your WOT (wide open throttle) PE ( power enrichment) value which can cause you to lose power.
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