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Old 09-22-2009, 09:16 AM   #26
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Hey Ted, will you be testing both the L99 And the LS3?
"Good question!", said the L99 owner.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:22 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Verio View Post
Then put away your pitchforks! He's offering a testing service that no other place is willing to do. It's a fair comparison.

Or... would you prefer he drives over 1,000 miles (100+ for each CAI)?

Sometimes the silliness of this board gets to me.
I'm going to ignore your last line. You obviously didn't understand what I said.

I'm not saying this test is useless or that I don't appreciate him doing this. I'm simply pointing out that for a true comparison, the ECU needs to be "broken in". I can't say I know how long this process takes. Ten miles or 100 miles, who knows?

Yes, you will see what the gains are right off the bat, but it will not be representative of what owners will see over the life of their unit. Still, this will be a good test to weed out the CAI's that really don't do anything but look good.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:22 AM   #28
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Then put away your pitchforks! He's offering a testing service that no other place is willing to do. It's a fair comparison.
Others have offered...
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Originally Posted by Late Model Racecraft View Post
We did two back to back pulls to get accurate results. As for the hood being closed, we have done dyno testing that proved a difference of less than 2hp, which is standing still on the dyno. If you have a CAI system on your car already and would like to bring it to our shop, I will make two back to back pulls with the system currently on your car and then install our CAI system and to prove ours is the best on the market today.
Second CAI on the dyno won the test here without driving it... I'm sure the similar location of both MAFs may have helped.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36533

I'd get rid of the stock box and put some miles on with the first CAI... then use those settings since they will no doubt be closer across the board than stock would be. JMHO...
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:26 AM   #29
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I'm going to ignore your last line. You obviously didn't understand what I said.

I'm not saying this test is useless or that I don't appreciate him doing this. I'm simply pointing out that for a true comparison, the ECU needs to be "broken in". I can't say I know how long this process takes. Ten miles or 100 miles, who knows?

Yes, you will see what the gains are right off the bat, but it will not be representative of what owners will see over the life of their unit. Still, this will be a good test to weed out the CAI's that really don't do anything but look good.
Well, that line wasn't just for you... it's for all the other people who were critisizing 2SSRS and others for inadquate testing. It's rather easy for people to sit behind a computer screen and scrutinize the testing of products.

We have a lot of emerging products with a relatively new system to place them on. I'm sure as time progresses, extensive testing will be done on all of them, but this may be a great initial "first-look" at them.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:52 AM   #30
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I don't care what happens immediately. I care about how it will perform in the long run. I want to see how performance changes after the ECU has adjusted over time. One unit may perform better than another 5 minutes into testing, but after 100 miles you may have a completely different story. I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter.

Ted, thanks for doing this. I hope most of the vendors participate. Being as detailed as you are, I'm sure you'll be documenting the entire testing process and trying your best to keep all conditions the same for all tests.
The "immediate" results are an indicator of how effective a unit is/is going to be. I would hope you'd be able to look at the various CAI's and understand which ones will likely see improving results over time based on what type it is. These tests will also show what's involved in installing each one, how they look once installed, how loud they are, and what their effectiveness is right out of the box. Maybe you don't care about that but I'm sure others (myself included) do.

I'm able to figure out which unit, like the Vararam, or Andy's which has the MAF inside the CAI box, MIGHT see improving results over time as the ECM adjusts versus a unit that's just a tube with a K&N filter stuck on the end. The starting point gives me an idea of how effective these units are immediately and what kind of gains might eventually be there based on the starting point. For example if a unit starts out with a gain of 15 rwhp, then I know over time as the ECM "learns" it's going to go up from there. If a different unit starts out at 10 rwhp, even if it gains 50% from ECM learning it I'd rather start with the other one that begins where this one might end up.

Heat soak is an issue. What are the temps inside the unit while sitting at a stop during stop and go traffic? What are the temps inside when you shut the engine off, then come back and start it back up? These are the kinds of things this test would reveal and IMHO are valuable.

I really don't see under these circumstances any practical way to run the long term tests you mentioned but I don't think that absence will in any way invalidate the results that they come up with.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:03 AM   #31
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The "immediate" results are an indicator of how effective a unit is/is going to be. I would hope you'd be able to look at the various CAI's and understand which ones will likely see improving results over time based on what type it is. These tests will also show what's involved in installing each one, how they look once installed, how loud they are, and what their effectiveness is right out of the box. Maybe you don't care about that but I'm sure others (myself included) do.

I'm able to figure out which unit, like the Vararam, or Andy's which has the MAF inside the CAI box, MIGHT see improving results over time as the ECM adjusts versus a unit that's just a tube with a K&N filter stuck on the end. The starting point gives me an idea of how effective these units are immediately and what kind of gains might eventually be there based on the starting point. For example if a unit starts out with a gain of 15 rwhp, then I know over time as the ECM "learns" it's going to go up from there. If a different unit starts out at 10 rwhp, even if it gains 50% from ECM learning it I'd rather start with the other one that begins where this one might end up.

Heat soak is an issue. What are the temps inside the unit while sitting at a stop during stop and go traffic? What are the temps inside when you shut the engine off, then come back and start it back up? These are the kinds of things this test would reveal and IMHO are valuable.

I really don't see under these circumstances any practical way to run the long term tests you mentioned but I don't think that absence will in any way invalidate the results that they come up with.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. There is no practical way for him to test each CAI for long periods of time, especially since he isn't being compensated for his time. My only point is, and you said it as well, we will have to guess how much performance will improve from initial numbers. A lot of people might see initial HP and TQ numbers and take that as the end all be all.

Like you said, I think other data such as intake temps during various different environments will give a good idea of long performance increases.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:09 AM   #32
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:12 AM   #33
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Guys I don't want this to get out of hand so lets Please stick to the facts only.

I will be data logging the effects of the cold air kits on the Maf Transfer function and the fuel trims for each system.

I will also Clear the computers Memory, before each kit, then do a drive cycle to let the computer adjust then make as many pulls as necessary to stablize the results.

A/F will be monitored for each system.

The only thing that affects A/F is the Maf Transfer Function, If the Maf transfer function is altered severely it throws off all the fueling and the timing calculations, I already know what to expect and will be watching this closely.

I was down this road 15 years ago with the LT1s and aftermarket mafs and cold air kits.

You will have to trust my experience in collecting solid data.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:20 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
Guys I don't want this to get out of hand so lets Please stick to the facts only.

I will be data logging the effects of the cold air kits on the Maf Transfer function and the fuel trims for each system.

I will also Clear the computers Memory, before each kit, then do a drive cycle to let the computer adjust then make as many pulls as necessary to stablize the results.

A/F will be monitored for each system.

The only thing that affects A/F is the Maf Transfer Function, If the Maf transfer function is altered severely it throws off all the fueling and the timing calculations, I already know what to expect and will be watching this closely.

I was down this road 15 years ago with the LT1s and aftermarket mafs and cold air kits.

You will have to trust my experience in collecting solid data.
That sounds good to me!
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:20 AM   #35
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Guys I don't want this to get out of hand so lets Please stick to the facts only.

I will be data logging the effects of the cold air kits on the Maf Transfer function and the fuel trims for each system.

I will also Clear the computers Memory, before each kit, then do a drive cycle to let the computer adjust then make as many pulls as necessary to stablize the results.

A/F will be monitored for each system.

The only thing that affects A/F is the Maf Transfer Function, If the Maf transfer function is altered severely it throws off all the fueling and the timing calculations, I already know what to expect and will be watching this closely.

I was down this road 15 years ago with the LT1s and aftermarket mafs and cold air kits.

You will have to trust my experience in collecting solid data.
No problem Ted. I'm very much looking forward to what you come up with, and a HUGE thankyou for doing this! If it was practical for me to be there I'd sure be happy to volunteer to help you. You're not getting paid to do any of this and you don't even make a CAI to make some sales from. I totally respect your enthusiasm and what you're doing here!
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:32 AM   #36
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:33 AM   #37
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...You will have to trust my experience in collecting solid data.
can't wait to see the results! Thanks for the time/efforts your investing on our behalf.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:54 AM   #38
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OK great, now all these companies that were talking about testing can put up or shut up! I eagerly await the results!
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:00 AM   #39
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I hated the stock airbox and elbow. I bought a CAI for the looks, that is it! 1 - 15 "probable" increase in HP is just a bonus to me.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:14 AM   #40
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I will send in my lmr intake if Andy will send me one of his street versions..
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Old 09-22-2009, 02:37 PM   #41
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If you purchase a CAI,, is it worth it to get a aftermarket MAF as well? What bennefits would I see?
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Old 09-22-2009, 02:56 PM   #42
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Guys I don't want this to get out of hand so lets Please stick to the facts only.

I will be data logging the effects of the cold air kits on the Maf Transfer function and the fuel trims for each system.

I will also Clear the computers Memory, before each kit, then do a drive cycle to let the computer adjust then make as many pulls as necessary to stablize the results.

A/F will be monitored for each system.

The only thing that affects A/F is the Maf Transfer Function, If the Maf transfer function is altered severely it throws off all the fueling and the timing calculations, I already know what to expect and will be watching this closely.

I was down this road 15 years ago with the LT1s and aftermarket mafs and cold air kits.

You will have to trust my experience in collecting solid data.

I cant wait til you log fuel trims!

90% of the aftermarket cold air kits require programming to get the trims back in line.

This week Ive tuned a hennesey, rotofab and a ADM. And maf transfer tuning was needed.
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Old 09-22-2009, 03:13 PM   #43
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:44 PM   #44
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TED
If you purchase a CAI,, is it worth it to get a aftermarket MAF as well? What bennefits would I see?
Aftermarket meters are not needed unless you make enough power to max out the meter should be somewhere around 800+ to max out the meter.

A change in the housing changes how the meter reads, so you could potentially take the same meter to maybe 900+ in a bigger housing.

Ted.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:46 PM   #45
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I cant wait til you log fuel trims!

90% of the aftermarket cold air kits require programming to get the trims back in line.

This week Ive tuned a hennesey, rotofab and a ADM. And maf transfer tuning was needed.
Would you mind sharing, PM me or call 203-753-7223
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:45 PM   #46
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I cant wait til you log fuel trims!

90% of the aftermarket cold air kits require programming to get the trims back in line.

This week Ive tuned a hennesey, rotofab and a ADM. And maf transfer tuning was needed.
Can you please elaborate? I am not trying to be smarta$$, just want to understand this. Thanks.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:57 PM   #47
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Can you please elaborate? I am not trying to be smarta$$, just want to understand this. Thanks.
OK, A Mass Air meter is calibrated in its original pipe/Air box in a Lab, X mass of air produces X Hz signal, the computer program has this information stored in what we call the Maf Transfer Function or Maf Calibration table.

When ever a Mass air meter is moved to another size, Shape, bend, pipe or exposed to another style air filter, 1 of 2 things happens, X Mass of air produces either less or more of a Hz signal.

The computer inturputes this as Less or More air respectively, and fueling is almost totally reliant on this signal.

Lets say we move more air but produce less Hz signal, this would cause a lean condition that the Fuel trims would have to make up for this by adding fuel initially in the short terms then stored permanately in the Long terms.

So If you look at your Long terms you can pretty much tell by what percent the Maf Transfer function is Skewed.

Now this also affects way more than just the fuel trims, it affects what I call the load calculations, which in turn affect where on the timing table the computer will select the timing cell with a number in it.

If you have ever looked at a timing table they typically have less timing at higher loads and more timing at lower loads.

So if above example would take place the computer would not reach the actual load value and select and higher timing value leading to the knock sensors pulling more timing.

I can't begin to tell you how complex this really is but this is a very short version of what happens when you change out your air box and move the mass air meter.

More air still means more power But the computer must be calibrated to maximize the benefits.

Years ago, the calibrations were no where near as complex and accurate as they are today, and the aftermarket cashed in on this with simple bolt ons to clean up already very rich or lax timing calibrations, and it worked quite well.

The cars and computers today are much more complex and much more accurate than I have ever seen in the past.

It was common to find 20-25 hp in a tune alone, Not today we only see 5-10 available and have to work pretty hard to get it.

Hope this answers your questions.
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Old 09-22-2009, 07:02 PM   #48
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I should also Add,

Just because the mass air meter produces less or more of a Hz signal does not mean you are moving less or more air.

I has to do with location, turbulance, what side of the pipe the air favors, temp, etc.

If you could rotate the maf every clock position you would get different readings because of fluid dynamics.
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Old 09-22-2009, 07:11 PM   #49
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I cant wait til you log fuel trims!

90% of the aftermarket cold air kits require programming to get the trims back in line.

This week Ive tuned a hennesey, rotofab and a ADM. And maf transfer tuning was needed.
Exactly, I am glad someone is deciding to do this. I will make sure one ships out tomorrow.
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Old 09-22-2009, 07:27 PM   #50
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Ted,
Let me know when you decided to do the testing. I'd love to come by and watch. If you need a car to use, I should have mine next week!! I'll be speaking with you soon.



Jamie
Thanks for Offering your car up, I may have to take you up on that, I will let you know if the other car falls through.

Ted.
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