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Old 09-27-2009, 05:34 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
It's a water-to-air system, so the heat-exhanger is mounted traditionally -- that is, down with the radiator and oil coolers, etc. As it was written in the article, this design drops the intake temperature over 150 degress...which is very important for durability and performance.
Thanks for the clarification. I did not understand it correctly first time around. I thought that, somehow, the H/E was other than where it is and that is what had me concerned - did not see how you could cool the air charge very well.

Very interesting design. I am going to do some homework on it as I had not seen it before. More torque and a cooler air charge is a pretty unbeatable combination.

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Old 09-27-2009, 06:30 PM   #52
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Hmm question? If the Z/28 uses the LSA, the LSA does not have forged pistons so how much of a ceiling would one have for mods? I highly doubt 700rwhp from a pulley swap would be wise like the GT-500 boys are doing. Any thoughts?
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Old 09-27-2009, 06:59 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth411 View Post
Hmm question? If the Z/28 uses the LSA, the LSA does not have forged pistons so how much of a ceiling would one have for mods? I highly doubt 700rwhp from a pulley swap would be wise like the GT-500 boys are doing. Any thoughts?
Hard to tell what the max would be. Alot more has to be done to the motor than just a pulley swap, 700rwhp is like 800hp+ at the crank. Currently the LSA is at 556 at the crank at 9psi with 9.1 compression ratio. So it looks like a bump in compression, cam change, pulley swap, full exhaust mods will be needed to acheave those power levels. Also the current H/E and intercooler system will need to be upgraded to.
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Old 09-27-2009, 07:30 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by truth411 View Post
Hmm question? If the Z/28 uses the LSA, the LSA does not have forged pistons so how much of a ceiling would one have for mods? I highly doubt 700rwhp from a pulley swap would be wise like the GT-500 boys are doing. Any thoughts?
No idea what the LSA's ceiling is. The Caddy guys are doing minor mods to get a little over 600 crank hp out of it.

Lingenfelter has a warrantied kit designed to boost power to LS9 levels...they don't replace any internals.

And Hennessy has a kit good for 700hp without replacing any internals...no word on a warranty...though I didn't check very far into it.

Let's put it this way...the engine won't blow up if you do a little modifying.

But I look at it the same as the LS3. But you wouldn't put 600hp through a stock LS3 without worrying, and so you probably shouldn't put 800hp through a stock LSA without worrying. Even the LS9 with all its titanium isn't indestructible........

I personally doubt that the GT500 guys are putting all that power so easily with unaffected reliability...but I can't get any specs on the engine from Ford...they're nowhere near as transparent about this stuff like GM...it would make this discussion so much easier.
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Old 09-27-2009, 07:50 PM   #55
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I personally doubt that the GT500 guys are putting all that power so easily with unaffected reliability...but I can't get any specs on the engine from Ford...they're nowhere near as transparent about this stuff like GM...it would make this discussion so much easier.
Hi Dragon,

Here is a thread that discusses the blown Ford 5.4 motor and its specs. Does this help?

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/ind...6919&hl=forged

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Old 09-27-2009, 08:32 PM   #56
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Also, these part of the LSA information article stuck out:

"The LS9s pistons are made of forged aluminum. The key difference in material choice here, is the desire for refinement in the Cadillac application."

"The cam design also reduces operating noise compared to the naturally aspirated 6.2L Corvette LS-3 V-8 by one decibel. While the change might not seem significant by itself, it combines with similar incremental improvements through the LSA that reduce interior noise in the 2009 CTS-V substantially compared its predecessor"

"The camshaft operates the engine's valves, and its design is crucial to both power and smoothness. The torque enhancing benefits of the supercharger allowed GM engineers to develop a "softer," lower-lift camshaft for the LSA, compared to the typical high-rev, high-power super-sedan engine. The LSA cam delivers maximum lift of 12.2 mm for both the intake and exhaust valves. Moreover, the cam lobes are profiled to reduce the amount of time that both intake and exhaust valves are partially open at the same time. Valve overlap is reduced compared the previous, LS2-powered CTS-V, despite the substantial increase in output. The result is smoother operation at low speeds, and particularly at idle."

With these statement, (maybe Im nit-picking) the LSA seems more geared and refined for the Caddy application. With a car like the Z28, I would think the designers would want the things they tried to omit with their design detail with the LSA. Words like a SOFT, SMOOTHER, QUIETER.....isnt what we are thinking when we want to sit idle with a SS with GMPP exhaust next to us.

Im still thinking that an engine made between the LSA and LS9 is in order. GM knows these car will be ran harder on the average than a Caddy. Plus i would hate to think that they would let there own "GMPP" miss out on warrantied upgrades to contend with FRPP upgrades on a GT500. I have faith that GM is smart to do this. They have been so far with the details.

If they push out L99s JUST for automatic Camaros to avoid gas guzzler tax, I believe they would at least expect and prepare for the stress and expectations that the Camaro's breed of customer will put on a Z28.

Making a "LS8" or "mongoose" with forged material (not titanium) and having its power output between 556hp and 600hp would be a good benchmark and insurance against a crippling load of warranty claim. Do it right the first time. At least put it on par with the strength of the GT500's 5.4L and boost its power output a little above to add to the snake's insult.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:48 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clark17357 View Post
Hi Dragon,

Here is a thread that discusses the blown Ford 5.4 motor and its specs. Does this help?

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/ind...6919&hl=forged

Jim
It does, thank you!! I've also been educated by a GT500-guy that the engine is forged throughout. Given that the LSA has those oil-jets pointed at the bottom of every piston, and the piston's dished, no-"hot-spot" design....I think we're fully aftermarket-able. But I'm no engineer, so I'm comfortable with being wrong.

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With these statement, (maybe Im nit-picking) the LSA seems more geared and refined for the Caddy application. With a car like the Z28, I would think the designers would want the things they tried to omit with their design detail with the LSA. Words like a SOFT, SMOOTHER, QUIETER.....isnt what we are thinking when we want to sit idle with a SS with GMPP exhaust next to us.

Im still thinking that an engine made between the LSA and LS9 is in order. GM knows these car will be ran harder on the average than a Caddy. Plus i would hate to think that they would let there own "GMPP" miss out on warrantied upgrades to contend with FRPP upgrades on a GT500. I have faith that GM is smart to do this. They have been so far with the details.

If they push out L99s JUST for automatic Camaros to avoid gas guzzler tax, I believe they would at least expect and prepare for the stress and expectations that the Camaro's breed of customer will put on a Z28.

Making a "LS8" or "mongoose" with forged material (not titanium) and having its power output between 556hp and 600hp would be a good benchmark and insurance against a crippling load of warranty claim. Do it right the first time. At least put it on par with the strength of the GT500's 5.4L and boost its power output a little above to add to the snake's insult.
No, you're not nitpicking at all -- you're absolutely right. The LSA was built with refinement at the forefront of their minds. I don't think that translates into reduced reliability, though...especially considering the testing results in the article.

They could take the money spent on refining it and invest that into forged pieces...and then up the boost a tiny bit for factory-release. My concern is the associated engineering and validation costs...do they want to spend all that for a likely one-off motor? (The GenV V8s are around the corner, remember...)

Ironically...LeftLane blog wrote an article in 2007...hard to believe it's been that long...But thus far, they've been accurate...And it mentions an LS8...as well as an LST..........

http://www.leftlanenews.com/a-detail...tor-plans.html

I think there's also a possibility of the Gen V engines making it into a 2012-released Z28. Supercharged or not...I consider this to be the ideal route.

BUT...nobody knows, and that's the beauty...hehe, We're going to go through this process alllllll over again.........
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:50 PM   #58
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SHEESH! Jinx does more than make the BEST Z28 renderings. I never really considered what you're proposing but I like it a lot. Wasn't there allegedly three SC'd engines talked about not that long ago?
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:07 PM   #59
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Well the refinement mentioned was brought up in the part of the when it was talking about the hyp. pistons over the forged ones. While it prolly wont be a issue with reliability, expected abuse is another. Ill would prepare and prevent a load of warranty claims and company headaches and have the thing set mildly in boost like the LSA, but have the added lift of the cam (similar to the LS9s cam spec) do the moderating that advertised power level between 556hp and 600hp.

As of now, the L99 could be considered "one off". I consider it to be a smart insurance policy while meeting customer demands instead. Im not an industrial expert, but I doubt that it would cost that Mexico plant that making these engines a fortune for GM to have an "LS8" to be built with a LS9 cam, LSA heads/block/SC, and a third party supplier like Mahle or Manley (call up middle men between Ford and those guys) for rods and pistons. We are talking just rods and pistons the first time. Overkill can prevent bigger cost in the long run and meet the demands (back to the L99 example again).

Ill agree on the most part, but the concern with Gen V engines isnt too much. The Corvette tends to hold a milestone engine like that exclusive to that model for at least a year.

As for the LST, my wild specualtion is the that high tiered V6 that was slightly mentioned in the Z28 release story. But just a guess.
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:25 PM   #60
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Jeeeeze, first of all, how many different ways can we POSSIBLY supercharge the LS3?? LOL, might as well just offer it with an LS3 and let people supercharge it themselves to their own specs rather than release 800 varients to please everyone

Second, the LS8 sounds interesting but wouldnt work for the Z/28 with only 500hp (wow, never thought id ever say ONLY 500hp, lmao) but with the Camaros heavier body and at 500 being 40 less than the Shelby that'd be a losing battle, the LST sounds interesting also but again with 450 torque its still under the Shelby, also with these two additions im getting waayy sick of these supercharged LS3s >=/ LOL

I guess im most interested in the next gen engines, i hope we can get gobs of power out of N/A engines, and then look into supercharging those to get the rediculous numbers i talked about way back when (ie: stock 900hp Camaros ooohhhh ) and besides, what would possibly be a better debute for the next gen engine other than the obvious Corvette release?
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:34 PM   #61
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Well the refinement mentioned was brought up in the part of the when it was talking about the hyp. pistons over the forged ones. While it prolly wont be a issue with reliability, expected abuse is another. Ill would prepare and prevent a load of warranty claims and company headaches and have the thing set mildly in boost like the LSA, but have the added lift of the cam (similar to the LS9s cam spec) do the moderating that advertised power level between 556hp and 600hp.

As of now, the L99 could be considered "one off". I consider it to be a smart insurance policy while meeting customer demands instead. Im not an industrial expert, but I doubt that it would cost that Mexico plant that making these engines a fortune for GM to have an "LS8" to be built with a LS9 cam, LSA heads/block/SC, and a third party supplier like Mahle or Manley (call up middle men between Ford and those guys) for rods and pistons. We are talking just rods and pistons the first time. Overkill can prevent bigger cost in the long run and meet the demands (back to the L99 example again).
I want to see what you describe, don't get me wrong!! And I believe it's more than a possibility. The L99 was basically changing the lifters, adding a pump, and messing with the computer. They can do that level of change in the LSA by simply installing forged pistons, and call it the LS'B' or something -- so I'm not dismissing the idea by any means. It could be that they're already validating an engine variant, and my concerns are baseless, too!

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Ill agree on the most part, but the concern with Gen V engines isnt too much. The Corvette tends to hold a milestone engine like that exclusive to that model for at least a year.
True...but the new Vette isn't due for at least a year after when the Z28's supposed to start up...In the 2007 UAW contracts, there was the Gen V's listed for production in late 2010/early 2011...and the C6.R team is supposedly already using the block in GT2 racing. I guess I'm just hoping they consider this car as important as a Corvette...
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Old 09-28-2009, 07:59 AM   #62
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GT500 guys do not get 700rwhp through a pulley swap...although i wish that was true! Now an u/g blower with different pulleys is another story, but just a pulley swap on the stock blower no way.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:22 PM   #63
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As for the LST, my wild specualtion is the that high tiered V6 that was slightly mentioned in the Z28 release story. But just a guess.
hmm.... do they use "LS" in models for any V6's Currently or in the past? I always thought that they used that for V8's mainly.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:38 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Also, these part of the LSA information article stuck out:

"The LS9s pistons are made of forged aluminum. The key difference in material choice here, is the desire for refinement in the Cadillac application."

"The cam design also reduces operating noise compared to the naturally aspirated 6.2L Corvette LS-3 V-8 by one decibel. While the change might not seem significant by itself, it combines with similar incremental improvements through the LSA that reduce interior noise in the 2009 CTS-V substantially compared its predecessor"

"The camshaft operates the engine's valves, and its design is crucial to both power and smoothness. The torque enhancing benefits of the supercharger allowed GM engineers to develop a "softer," lower-lift camshaft for the LSA, compared to the typical high-rev, high-power super-sedan engine. The LSA cam delivers maximum lift of 12.2 mm for both the intake and exhaust valves. Moreover, the cam lobes are profiled to reduce the amount of time that both intake and exhaust valves are partially open at the same time. Valve overlap is reduced compared the previous, LS2-powered CTS-V, despite the substantial increase in output. The result is smoother operation at low speeds, and particularly at idle."

With these statement, (maybe Im nit-picking) the LSA seems more geared and refined for the Caddy application. With a car like the Z28, I would think the designers would want the things they tried to omit with their design detail with the LSA. Words like a SOFT, SMOOTHER, QUIETER.....isnt what we are thinking when we want to sit idle with a SS with GMPP exhaust next to us.

Im still thinking that an engine made between the LSA and LS9 is in order. GM knows these car will be ran harder on the average than a Caddy. Plus i would hate to think that they would let there own "GMPP" miss out on warrantied upgrades to contend with FRPP upgrades on a GT500. I have faith that GM is smart to do this. They have been so far with the details.

If they push out L99s JUST for automatic Camaros to avoid gas guzzler tax, I believe they would at least expect and prepare for the stress and expectations that the Camaro's breed of customer will put on a Z28.

Making a "LS8" or "mongoose" with forged material (not titanium) and having its power output between 556hp and 600hp would be a good benchmark and insurance against a crippling load of warranty claim. Do it right the first time. At least put it on par with the strength of the GT500's 5.4L and boost its power output a little above to add to the snake's insult.

While I wish the Z/28 would be more hardcore, it won't happen. They want to make the Z/28 on the cheap and make as much money as they can. They will NOT make a new motor like a LSA/LS9 combo, that costs money. They will take a engine already being produced, only motor I see is the LSA, wish it was the LS9 but that motor costs too much.

I wish they could make a cam change on the LSA but I'm sure they won't. They will take that same caddy motor and change the motor mounts and sell it as a killer Z/28 motor.

What REALLY worries me is the weight, thats a heavy motor, sure we are gaining 150HP but we are also gaining 150+ pounds on the front of the car.

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Old 09-29-2009, 12:49 PM   #65
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:54 PM   #66
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I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I think this might not have been brought up before. I was wondering if from a model offering and marketing standpoint, if it would make more sense for the Z/28 to have the LS7 from the Z06, and the LSA supercharged engine could then be used as a limited edition ZL-1. An LSA Camaro should be somewhat limited and expensive...the LS7 Z/28 would make a great interim step to that.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:45 PM   #67
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I want one , I will be keeping the mileage low on my 2010 SSRS and be first in line at Balise Chevrolet when they announce the date the Supercharged Z-28 can be ordered, Oh Yeeaahhh, I can't wait for that day.

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Old 09-29-2009, 02:33 PM   #68
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Less interested in the engine and more interested in what else they would change in the car. Just like in the GT500 it's not the 500+hp it's everything else that has been upgraded so you can make 800hp and not break everything. I believe they have GT500s in the 9s with some bolt ons with a tune, a new pulley, and some suspension and tires. I believe it was with the Evolution Performance GT500. I also think they were the first in the 9s. The prospect of spending a few grand on a Z28 and having a 9 second car is very interesting.
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:51 PM   #69
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:01 PM   #70
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ford mustank owners are shakin in their bootz in wake of this news bye bye gt 500..........u ford guyz didnt think we(Camaro) guyz were going 2 let u steal the spotlight for long didnt ya??? foolish assumption mustank owners...........the Z28 is back
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:28 PM   #71
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I have to say, reading these posts and seeing the newly emerged Sub-Forum all dedicated to the Z/28 give me goose bumps.

It's so awesome to hear that they are finally bringing this beast back to life. I will own one of these. I'm glad I waited. I hope to see an LSA in the Z but what I'm concerned with is price. A base vette with an LS3 is 48K and a base SS is 31k so you have a it's a 35/65 price difference. A base (if you can call it that) CTS-V is 59,500. Using the same model, are we looking at a 39K base sticker price for the Z. Does that sound right? I mean that would be great now wouldn't it? Back to the engine itself. I would like to see the engine as it is now in the car with a few eco tweeks to keep Guzzler tax at bay. That's asking for a lot I know. I'm just thinking, if they deside to make a more superior CTS-V coupe, enhance the engine for the CTS-V for that evolution to continue. Who knows. I'm just excited to see the Z is coming back. All we have to do is wait.

Meanwhile, we can misinform each other and speculate on this car as much as we did as pre-pubesent kids misinforming each other on the opposite sex. Good times, good times.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:58 PM   #72
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:13 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by pfflyer View Post
I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I think this might not have been brought up before. I was wondering if from a model offering and marketing standpoint, if it would make more sense for the Z/28 to have the LS7 from the Z06, and the LSA supercharged engine could then be used as a limited edition ZL-1. An LSA Camaro should be somewhat limited and expensive...the LS7 Z/28 would make a great interim step to that.
I'd encourage you to read the posts It's been posted that LS7 is on the way out, and regardless of what people's preferrences are between it and LSA, I think that, on the whole, it's cheaper to build and stick LSA in Z28. That's my opinion, but it's been pretty widely accepted for a while now that LS7 is going out of production in the next near years; I can't see GM putting an engine with that limited a future, and add all the tooling and engineering costs, in Z28.

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Old 10-03-2009, 02:34 AM   #74
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LSA would be great - LS9 for under 45 K even better

Either way, the day it is announced I will order.

Thanks GM
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:00 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by radz282003 View Post
I'd encourage you to read the posts It's been posted that LS7 is on the way out, and regardless of what people's preferrences are between it and LSA, I think that, on the whole, it's cheaper to build and stick LSA in Z28. That's my opinion, but it's been pretty widely accepted for a while now that LS7 is going out of production in the next near years; I can't see GM putting an engine with that limited a future, and add all the tooling and engineering costs, in Z28.

Plus the LS7 wouldn't hold up to a supercharger. That's why the LSA is based off the LS3, due to the LS3 having thicker walls. I overall think that the LSA would be the best option as well.
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