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Old 09-29-2009, 10:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by GM4lyfe View Post
Huh? Ford site says starting MSRP $46325.
Really? You don't get that $46k is less than $50k? Or that it's less than the average between $44k and $50k? Or that even the GT500 with the convertible option is still within your projected price range for a Z28?

Let's just go back to the beginning, with the easy comparison. Let's say the Z28 and the GT500 are identically priced. What do you think the Z28 will have that the GT500 won't? What would prompt someone to buy a Z28?
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:46 PM   #27
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You're skewing a lot of things in your favor for the sake of debate...which is fine, I guess...but, man is it a little irritating.

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I know you didn't pick this up in my first post, but I don't believe you when you say GM is planning a limited production run of the Z28. It doesn't make sense, economically. They'd lose money, and there's no need to pump up recognition of Camaro's as they already have a waiting list 6 months long. Plus the convertible would do a better job of that than a Z28 since they can make money off convertibles.
Please explain how they'd lose money? They have the V6 and SS Camaro, which are to make up the vast majority of their sales. They don't NEED the Z28 -- which is the main reason they shelved it during the summer turmoil. It's a frivolous addition to the lineup. You don't have to believe me...that's the beauty of free-will...but it WILL be a low-volume model. So take it or leave it, I guess...

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No, they are not out of the price range. If you can swing $50k for a muscle car, you can swing $60k for a wider variety of cars. Put it this way, a $50k Z28 fully financed would be ~$1000/month. The CTS-V would be ~$1,160/month and has the exact same engine and many more features. Everybody would consider that.
Then.....At $50k, a Z28 would be in the same price-range as an SS by your logic...which means 60% of current Camaro buyers would consider that. Not the small, undetectable minority you were talking about in your previous post...so why are we having this debate?

And did you know that a large portion of Corvette-buyers are streching their dollar's worth to afford a base-version of that car? They don't have an extra 10 grand to spend...that's not chump-change. hmmm....
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
Add on top of that, they are both GM cars. How does GM win if a prospective CTS-V buyer purchased a Camaro instead? They lose $8k-$12k in revenue. And that's the good version. The bad version is the buyer figures out he can have a C63 AMG instead of either of those, and GM doesn't get a sale at all. Now GM's new Camaro has people thinking about muscle, but it's price has them thinking about luxury too. Bad news for GM.
Then I suppose it's a ruddy miracle that Ford is selling GT500s....the outline you give about is simply the nature of the Industry, my friend.

If price was a buyers only consideration, and luxury trumps performance as you imply, then I'm positive we all would not be buying and driving Camaros...we could all be buying CTSs instead. But...that isn't happening. A car this niche will attract a VERY closed-minded buyer. A buyer who knows exactly what he/she wants to buy...and only needs a company to offer it for him to purchase. It is very unlikely that these people will search so far out the segment for a car.

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Put it this way, a lot of people will buy muscle cars for $35k. Go much beyond that though and they not only expect more, whatever they expect is readily available from other car manufacturers as well as GM.
Really? Can you show me that study? I just don't agree with this...so fiercely, in fact...that I'm going to defend a Ford (which the Z28 should conceiveably be better than)...what is the world coming to?

Here goes: name me another car that can do what the GT500 does for $46,000 MSRP +/- $2000. It doesn't have to be better...just name another 2+2 coupe that can perform as well for that price. The M3 can, but that thing is well over $10,000 more (closing on $15,000 more).
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
I know you didn't pick this up in my first post, but I don't believe you when you say GM is planning a limited production run of the Z28. It doesn't make sense, economically. They'd lose money, and there's no need to pump up recognition of Camaro's as they already have a waiting list 6 months long. Plus the convertible would do a better job of that than a Z28 since they can make money off convertibles.

No, they are not out of the price range. If you can swing $50k for a muscle car, you can swing $60k for a wider variety of cars. Put it this way, a $50k Z28 fully financed would be ~$1000/month. The CTS-V would be ~$1,160/month and has the exact same engine and many more features. Everybody would consider that.

Add on top of that, they are both GM cars. How does GM win if a prospective CTS-V buyer purchased a Camaro instead? They lose $8k-$12k in revenue. And that's the good version. The bad version is the buyer figures out he can have a C63 AMG instead of either of those, and GM doesn't get a sale at all. Now GM's new Camaro has people thinking about muscle, but it's price has them thinking about luxury too. Bad news for GM.

Put it this way, a lot of people will buy muscle cars for $35k. Go much beyond that though and they not only expect more, whatever they expect is readily available from other car manufacturers as well as GM.
I don't, personally, think a person who has the wherewithall to spend $60K on a musclecar is going to buy a Camaro, Challenger, or Mustang without knowing exaclty what they want. These cars are not going to be on the same field as any Merc or BMW in that price range except possibly handling, and straighline speed. Materials, ergonomics, electronic goodies and well, the image of what muscle cars were are probably likely to scary away any silverspooned buyer away from Camaro and even Corvette. These, I'm sure, are not the target for Z28 buys, nor Chally' and GT500s.

JMHO.
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
Really? You don't get that $46k is less than $50k? Or that it's less than the average between $44k and $50k? Or that even the GT500 with the convertible option is still within your projected price range for a Z28?
From post 15
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Originally Posted by GM4lyfe View Post
I'm not following you. What I'm saying based off Camaro's website that the 2SS starts at $34K, the Z/28 maybe $10k-$15K on top of that like $44K-$50K. I don't think we'll see a performance car with 500+hp under $40K.
Once again the GT500 is $46,000 the Vert is $51K. Seems like $46K is right in the middle. I'm going by internet prices because thats all I got to go by. People may pay more or less for one who knows, that goes for any car. I'm not saying that the Z/28 IS going for my predicted price range, that just seems like a competive sensable price range for one. What you think the Z/28 going to go for $35K-$40K???


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
Let's just go back to the beginning, with the easy comparison. Let's say the Z28 and the GT500 are identically priced. What do you think the Z28 will have that the GT500 won't? What would prompt someone to buy a Z28?
You tell me? It might be the same reason why you got an Camaro over the Mustang? Isn't the fully loaded to the gills Mustang GT cheaper than a 2SS Camaro? Why would anyone buy a Camaro SS when you can have a cheaper Mustang GT. There is your answer.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:14 AM   #30
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You're skewing a lot of things in your favor for the sake of debate...which is fine, I guess...but, man is it a little irritating.
I've supplied the reasons for all my arguments. I haven't heard any of you guys explain why the Z28 has to cost that much, or any reasons why people would buy it at that price other than "It's a Z28". At that price range, the Z28 mystique by itself isn't enough to convince ordinary people to buy it.

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Please explain how they'd lose money? They have the V6 and SS Camaro, which are to make up the vast majority of their sales. They don't NEED the Z28 -- which is the main reason they shelved it during the summer turmoil. It's a frivolous addition to the lineup. You don't have to believe me...that's the beauty of free-will...but it WILL be a low-volume model. So take it or leave it, I guess...
Because they won't sell at $50k. Whether the Z28 is frivolous will depend entirely on it's price.

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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Then.....At $50k, a Z28 would be in the same price-range as an SS by your logic...which means 60% of current Camaro buyers would consider that. Not the small, undetectable minority you were talking about in your previous post...so why are we having this debate?
Because you lack basic comprehension, I suppose. High-hp performance stands out @ $35k. It doesn't @ $50k.

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And did you know that a large portion of Corvette-buyers are streching their dollar's worth to afford a base-version of that car? They don't have an extra 10 grand to spend...that's not chump-change. hmmm....
No, I don't know that. Do you know that?

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Then I suppose it's a ruddy miracle that Ford is selling GT500s....the outline you give about is simply the nature of the Industry, my friend.
Does Ford have another high-hp car to sell? No. Then it's not a miracle, it's simply a lack of options.

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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
If price was a buyers only consideration, and luxury trumps performance as you imply, then I'm positive we all would not be buying and driving Camaros...we could all be buying CTSs instead. But...that isn't happening.
I didn't say luxury trumps performance, I said performance and luxury trumps only performance.

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A car this niche will attract a VERY closed-minded buyer.
Rofl. Yeah, that's one way of saying "not many people will buy it", I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
A buyer who knows exactly what he/she wants to buy...and only needs a company to offer it for him to purchase. It is very unlikely that these people will search so far out the segment for a car.
Why not? Do you think people shopping for new cars give a crap about segments? I don't. I think they look at everything and buy what most appeals to them.

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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Here goes: name me another car that can do what the GT500 does for $46,000 MSRP +/- $2000. It doesn't have to be better...just name another 2+2 coupe that can perform as well for that price. The M3 can, but that thing is well over $10,000 more (closing on $15,000 more).
You've got our arguments backwards. Your argument assumes people buy cars in segments. I don't. I think the GT500 competes with the Corvette for sales, and I also think the Camaro SS competes with the GT500 for sales.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:24 AM   #31
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Once again the GT500 is $46,000 the Vert is $51K. Seems like $46K is right in the middle. I'm going by internet prices because thats all I got to go by. People may pay more or less for one who knows, that goes for any car. I'm not saying that the Z/28 IS going for my predicted price range, that just seems like a competive sensable price range for one. What you think the Z/28 going to go for $35K-$40K???
GM has performance cars in the GT500 price range, as well as above it. Why would they need another?

I'd put the Z28 in the $37k-$43k price range.

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You tell me? It might be the same reason why you got an Camaro over the Mustang? Isn't the fully loaded to the gills Mustang GT cheaper than a 2SS Camaro? Why would anyone buy a Camaro SS when you can have a cheaper Mustang GT. There is your answer.
Horsepower. There's a hugh difference between GT hp and SS hp. That won't be true of the Z28 and GT500, at least if the 550hp LSA assumption is correct. The 2010 GT500 makes 540hp, who knows what it will be in 2012 when the Z28 comes out.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:41 AM   #32
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I can't really imagine that the Z28 will be too much more than a whiz-banged up version of the existing SS, all existing technology with all of the 'up' options as a base or starting point.

More than likely, they'll take all the things people complained about the SS not having or not having done well, and add or fix it. Add some Z28 specific badging
and 'special' wheels, hood, interior package etc and call it a day.

As long as GM can convince the target buying audience that the Z28 is 'special'
it'll sell like hotcakes and people will be happy again. Hell, I'd be o.k. with it.

Engine: LS7/LS9/LSA
Suspension: Existing, but with aftermarket coil-overs and lowered a bit
Body: New hood, spoiler and badges
Interior: They'll either go more muscle (minimalists) or add sparkly stuff and of course more leather
Colors: Possibly Z28 specific colors or combination's offered from the factory.
With Z28 specific stripes.
Transmission: Bullet-proofed/hardened version of existing TR6060 or 6L80E
may not even offer more than one...go either all manual or all auto.

No matter what they end up with, people will buy it, talk about it and be happy about it.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:45 AM   #33
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GM has performance cars in the GT500 price range, as well as above it. Why would they need another?

I'd put the Z28 in the $37k-$43k price range.
They do, what? If your talking about the Corvette wrong, its not in the same class as the GT500 two different cars. $37k-$43k not a chance, we hope, but that won't happen. I think $43k is the lowest.

Quote:
Horsepower. There's a hugh difference between GT hp and SS hp. That won't be true of the Z28 and GT500, at least if the 550hp LSA assumption is correct. The 2010 GT500 makes 540hp, who knows what it will be in 2012 when the Z28 comes out.
Ahh there you go, so why would a Z/28 would be cheaper than a GT500 with nearly the same HP? And cost as much as a Challenger SRT8 with less HP? Keep in mind these are cars in the same class.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:36 AM   #34
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...


I can't argue with a wall.

EDIT: And I don't appreciate you telling me I can't comprehend what I read. Perhaps you ought to not contradict yourself.
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:02 PM   #35
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Not quite as entertaining as the Ladies of Camaro5 thread but close
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:03 PM   #36
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They do, what? If your talking about the Corvette wrong, its not in the same class as the GT500 two different cars. $37k-$43k not a chance, we hope, but that won't happen. I think $43k is the lowest.
Who cares if it's in the same class? What people will buy is all that matters. What would the Z28 offer that the GT500 or the Corvette doesn't is what you should be asking. The prices will be the same.

Price (or performance for the price, if you prefer) is what the Camaro offers today, and that's why it's selling like hotcakes in a crappy economy.

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Ahh there you go, so why would a Z/28 would be cheaper than a GT500 with nearly the same HP? And cost as much as a Challenger SRT8 with less HP? Keep in mind these are cars in the same class.
Because they want to sell them. Do you think the guys at Dodge are patting themselves on the back for the Challenger SRT8 being priced higher than the Camaro SS? How are Challenger sales these days?

If there's nothing inherently better about a car relative to cars in the same price range, why would anyone buy it?

A 550hp Z28 would certainly be impressive, but it won't stand out at $50k. There will be other cars that offer exactly the same performance, and still other cars that have suped-up hp in the same range but also have superb handling, and still more cars that offer luxury plus suped-up hp.
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:39 PM   #37
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I can't argue with a wall.

EDIT: And I don't appreciate you telling me I can't comprehend what I read. Perhaps you ought to not contradict yourself.
Ditto.
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