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Old 09-29-2009, 05:51 PM   #1
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2011 Z28 with 700 hp?

Let's assume that GM builds the Z28 and that they utilize the potent LSA supercharged motor from the Cadillac CTS-V. If this happens then there is already a wide variety of proven and potent aftermarket components available for the LSA motor.

HPE has been tweaking the LSA motor in the new CTS-V for the last 10 months and we have built dozens of cars with 600, 650 and over 700 hp. Here are a few examples:









The supercharged LSA motor is the real deal.

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Old 09-29-2009, 05:55 PM   #2
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700 would be ok...............
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:19 PM   #3
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John, very impressive!

What is your opinion on the hypereutectic pistons of the engine? There's a lot of controversy regarding those pieces.
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:42 PM   #4
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My CTSV was making just under 600rwhp when I got rid of it for the new camaro. Now we all know that the LS engines have been pushed over 700rwhp on stock shortblocks in the past, i know a few locals that have been doing it for years with no problems, but its flirting with disaster and I never personally felt comfortable with it. Especially since you can get a set of good forged rods and pistons for a LSx engine for around $1200 any day of the week, there is no reason to risk blowing your engine up. With that said, the LSA has forged rods, why the hell wouldnt GM have put forged slugs in it to begin with... And I really dont want to hear "noise" as an answer because there are quite a few forged piston factory built cars on the road. In the production phase the price difference between forged and cast is not much at all, not enough to impact selling price. Even if it did though, id rather pay an additional $200 upfront and know I have a shortblock that can take 800-1000hp any day of the week vs having to tear the engine down just to install a set of slugs and some better rod bolts.

My camaro had a LS3 in it when I bought it, it is now sitting on a stand in my garage with 300 miles on it simply because it didnt come with forged slugs and rods. If it did, i would not have built the iron block 408 for it, would not have had a need to.

Wake up GM. Follow fords footsteps for once... its worth it, your customers will thank you.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostedSS View Post
With that said, the LSA has forged rods, why the hell wouldnt GM have put forged slugs in it to begin with... And I really dont want to hear "noise" as an answer because there are quite a few forged piston factory built cars on the road.
If you don't want to hear it, then plug your ears, because that's why they did it. It's was designed as a luxury engine from the start...and the pistons were one of many luxury-focused components....

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My camaro had a LS3 in it when I bought it, it is now sitting on a stand in my garage with 300 miles on it simply because it didnt come with forged slugs and rods. If it did, i would not have built the iron block 408 for it, would not have had a need to.

Wake up GM. Follow fords footsteps for once... its worth it, your customers will thank you.
That doesn't make any sense. What $30,000 Ford has forged everything in it? And why would any company do that (and increase the production costs of their cars)...when 90% of their customers won't change a thing?

It's not my intent to argue with you in here...I really just want to hear from a professional, what he thinks of the hypereutectic pistons...but those comments were a little out in left-field, I had to reply.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostedSS View Post
My CTSV was making just under 600rwhp when I got rid of it for the new camaro. Now we all know that the LS engines have been pushed over 700rwhp on stock shortblocks in the past, i know a few locals that have been doing it for years with no problems, but its flirting with disaster and I never personally felt comfortable with it. Especially since you can get a set of good forged rods and pistons for a LSx engine for around $1200 any day of the week, there is no reason to risk blowing your engine up. With that said, the LSA has forged rods, why the hell wouldnt GM have put forged slugs in it to begin with... And I really dont want to hear "noise" as an answer because there are quite a few forged piston factory built cars on the road. In the production phase the price difference between forged and cast is not much at all, not enough to impact selling price. Even if it did though, id rather pay an additional $200 upfront and know I have a shortblock that can take 800-1000hp any day of the week vs having to tear the engine down just to install a set of slugs and some better rod bolts.

My camaro had a LS3 in it when I bought it, it is now sitting on a stand in my garage with 300 miles on it simply because it didnt come with forged slugs and rods. If it did, i would not have built the iron block 408 for it, would not have had a need to.

Wake up GM. Follow fords footsteps for once... its worth it, your customers will thank you.

No waking up to do. GM made these decisions with eyes WIDE open. I can appreciate that you would like a race engine under the hood. The problem is that the other 99% of Camaro buyers that will never, ever need it will have to pay for it too.

The LS3 is an awesome engine balanced for HP, emissions, and reliability and durability. 5 years 100,000 miles.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:22 PM   #7
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If you don't want to hear it, then plug your ears, because that's why they did it. It's was designed as a luxury engine from the start...and the pistons were one of many luxury-focused components....


That doesn't make any sense. What $30,000 Ford has forged everything in it? And why would any company do that (and increase the production costs of their cars)...when 90% of their customers won't change a thing?

It's not my intent to argue with you in here...I really just want to hear from a professional, what he thinks of the hypereutectic pistons...but those comments were a little out in left-field, I had to reply.


i can't wait to see what happens with these engines from a modification standpoint. to clarify - the LSA in a non-luxury car
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:23 PM   #8
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I honestly love how some people on this site want GM to do completely random things without thinking about whether or not GM has the resources to do so or if it's even feasible for GM to do so.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:24 PM   #9
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your customers will thank you.
The few will be happy and say thank you.... the majority will not be happy because they have to pay more for something they will never "use".
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:30 PM   #10
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I honestly love how some people on this site want GM to do completely random things without thinking about whether or not GM has the resources to do so or if it's even feasible for GM to do so.
Putting forged pistons in an engine is not a difficult task, that is really the only issue.

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The few will be happy and say thank you.... the majority will not be happy because they have to pay more for something they will never "use".
Pay more? The price difference to run a forged piston in a mass produced production setting is so little it shouldnt even effect the MSRP.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:32 PM   #11
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If you don't want to hear it, then plug your ears, because that's why they did it. It's was designed as a luxury engine from the start...and the pistons were one of many luxury-focused components....


That doesn't make any sense. What $30,000 Ford has forged everything in it? And why would any company do that (and increase the production costs of their cars)...when 90% of their customers won't change a thing?

It's not my intent to argue with you in here...I really just want to hear from a professional, what he thinks of the hypereutectic pistons...but those comments were a little out in left-field, I had to reply.
I can appreciate your response, i have no intention of arguing this issue with you either. But the fact remains that the cost at a mass production level to run a forged vs cast piston is so little that it would most likely not even effect vehicle pricing.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:34 PM   #12
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Pay more? The price difference to run a forged piston in a mass produced production setting is so little it shouldnt even effect the MSRP.

Im not a expert in that field so I cant comment on how cheap it is. Im sure if it is that cheap for GM to do it... they will.....
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:51 PM   #13
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I can appreciate your response, i have no intention of arguing this issue with you either. But the fact remains that the cost at a mass production level to run a forged vs cast piston is so little that it would most likely not even effect vehicle pricing.

Throughout auto manufacturing history the economic feasability of every part in every car is studied and considered.. What seems like nickle and dime to you needs to be multiplied on a larger scale. Being in the metal industry myself, I am pretty sure forged pistons, the machinery to manufacture them, their inherent wear and tear on upkeep and maintenance of this machinery, is something most people have no grasp of

200000 pistons a year even at $4 each price differential each is a lot of money, and I bet the differential is alot more than that on a cost basis
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:57 PM   #14
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I still think adding better rod and pistons would be smarter in more areas then just "performance".

Think:

-Extra precaution to prevent expensive warranty claims,
Everyone may not use the full mod potential of the bottom end, but it could decreases (note: decreases not eliminate) the chance of total disaster when detonation occurs if faced with a bad tank of fuel or lean condition. So its not just to cater to the mod-happy customers.

-Bragging rights,
Immature....yes. Pointless.....maybe. Good Advestising to Readers.......yes. While I agreed with "we have a complete forged bottom end" wont sell or tip the scale like an elephant when it coming to picking the GT500 or the Z28; it is an extra positive bug in someones ear when someone reads Stickies in this forum or the feature article in Motor Trend.

-Narrows the rational gap in material use between the LS9 and LSA,
Hyp. Pieces to Titanium piece. Thats a big gap. I strongly believe that a forged rod and piston addition would hurt the price that much and create a too much of a ruckus. I mean GM didnt seems to hold back on adding a AFM setup and different cam spec to a LS3-like engine to handle a problem such as MPGs (aka L99), so why hold back now?
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
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-Narrows the rational gap in material use between the LS9 and LSA,
Hyp. Pieces to Titanium piece. Thats a big gap. I strongly believe that a forged rod and piston addition would hurt the price that much and create a too much of a ruckus. I mean GM didnt seems to hold back on adding a AFM setup and different cam spec to a LS3-like engine to handle a problem such as MPGs (aka L99), so why hold back now?
Perhaps...AFM has been applied to small-blocks for a number of years, now...it's not new in terms of function or adaptability. Changing such a critical component as pistons and/or rods, though, would require a rebalancing, and revalidation of an engine for a car that I'm sure they want to push out the door sooner rather than later.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:11 PM   #16
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I still think adding better rod and pistons would be smarter in more areas then just "performance".

Think:

-Extra precaution to prevent expensive warranty claims,
Everyone may not use the full mod potential of the bottom end, but it could decreases (note: decreases not eliminate) the chance of total disaster when detonation occurs if faced with a bad tank of fuel or lean condition. So its not just to cater to the mod-happy customers.

-Bragging rights,
Immature....yes. Pointless.....maybe. Good Advestising to Readers.......yes. While I agreed with "we have a complete forged bottom end" wont sell or tip the scale like an elephant when it coming to picking the GT500 or the Z28; it is an extra positive bug in someones ear when someone reads Stickies in this forum or the feature article in Motor Trend.

-Narrows the rational gap in material use between the LS9 and LSA,
Hyp. Pieces to Titanium piece. Thats a big gap. I strongly believe that a forged rod and piston addition would hurt the price that much and create a too much of a ruckus. I mean GM didnt seems to hold back on adding a AFM setup and different cam spec to a LS3-like engine to handle a problem such as MPGs (aka L99), so why hold back now?

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:27 PM   #17
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i can't wait to see what happens with these engines from a modification standpoint. to clarify - the LSA in a non-luxury car
Bring it ON!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shnomac77 View Post
The few will be happy and say thank you.... the majority will not be happy because they have to pay more for something they will never "use".
I think Jinx brough up some good points too, because a GT500 just makes sense. When we go down the comparison spreadsheets, it's not going to look as good when we see all the strength we know the 500s have, though I think most won't care. If GM wants some new sales, I think they're going to have to at least equal that car in most every respect.

Quote:
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Perhaps...AFM has been applied to small-blocks for a number of years, now...it's not new in terms of function or adaptability. Changing such a critical component as pistons and/or rods, though, would require a rebalancing, and revalidation of an engine for a car that I'm sure they want to push out the door sooner rather than later.
A different balancer, especially if it gets a combination of components from LSA and LS9 is one that strikes me right off. Emissions is another, though, I have to ask if they used LS9 slugs, how hard could it be? They're going to have to validate anyways?...

After reading more posts from members here, especially in advances in piston tech', I'm more comfortable with the thought, now, of just a straight transplant. I'm going to have to look into what HPE is doing more closely to see what I can get away with

JMVHO.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:33 PM   #18
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Oh - and sorry for straying there. Please don't post more videos of that car. You're distracting me
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Old 09-30-2009, 05:51 AM   #19
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I can appreciate your response, i have no intention of arguing this issue with you either. But the fact remains that the cost at a mass production level to run a forged vs cast piston is so little that it would most likely not even effect vehicle pricing.
I am just curious as to how you know the overall costs. I assume you are considering overall fuel economy, emissions AND warranty? And i do know that no cost increase is invisible.

I truly respect your passion on pistons, but there are good reasons for the LSA pistons and the application.

For most people, 556 reliable HP is wayyyyyyyy more than good.

The issue really isn't if forged is better or not. The issue is you continue to claim GM has somehow failed by not giving you what you would like. Even if it was $10 more (and I believe it is more) program teams kill for that. So if I can deliver a car with an engine that every mag has said beats a BMW m5........EPIC WIN.

And keep in mind the engine for the reported Z28 is not announced let alone the specs. So this should be viewed as an exchange of ideas and experience. So let us kkep this as a technical discussion. GM hasn't failed here. The LSA is by all measures a great engine just as the Camaro is a great car. But that doesn't mean everyone has to be happy.
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Old 09-30-2009, 09:00 AM   #20
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some of you guys need to relax. the engineers at gm know what they are doing. the pistons and rods in the LSA are plenty strong. sure it would be nice if they had forged pistons for those of us who would like to run a lot more boost. but this motor is plenty strong up to 550-600 rear wheel hp. if you want to run 20 psi boost or put a 200 shot of nitrous on this motor then pull it apart and put your favorite forged piston in it.
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Old 09-30-2009, 10:01 AM   #21
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Ok just admit it..........you really want the LS9
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:06 PM   #22
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The few will be happy and say thank you.... the majority will not be happy because they have to pay more for something they will never "use".
even worse they just wont buy. they will be happy with something else
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:15 PM   #23
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some of you guys need to relax. the engineers at gm know what they are doing. the pistons and rods in the LSA are plenty strong. sure it would be nice if they had forged pistons for those of us who would like to run a lot more boost. but this motor is plenty strong up to 550-600 rear wheel hp. if you want to run 20 psi boost or put a 200 shot of nitrous on this motor then pull it apart and put your favorite forged piston in it.


Holy $hit I cant imagine why a performace shop would say that?
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:21 PM   #24
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[/COLOR]

Holy $hit I cant imagine why a performace shop would say that?
Probably cus you don't know as much as they do.....


Play nice....
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:08 PM   #25
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Ok just admit it..........you really want the LS9
I'll go on record admitting I want the LS9. Noted
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