Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Apex Paul
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission

Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission Tune and diagnostics for engines and auto transmission.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-12-2009, 03:04 PM   #51
mlee
H-Town Camaro Club
 
mlee's Avatar
 
Drives: Number Twenty-Three
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 24,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk@VectorMotorsports View Post
BTW, we think we found the bit to turn off AFM in Sport mode.
Now that's what I'm talking about... I'll throw a warranty away for that...
__________________
.
mlee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:05 PM   #52
UCF w00t
Geek
 
UCF w00t's Avatar
 
Drives: IOM 2010 Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Orlando
Posts: 4,456
As someone without a "dog in this fight" I don't see why the mods can't voice their opinions. If you're going to make claims like something is undetectable, you better be prepared to back it up. Tag in particular said nothing wrong. If you're tuning your car, be prepared to pay for repairs out of your own pocket. How is that not 100% factual? While I disagree that GM should automatically void warranty claims on the powertrain if it's been tuned, it is a risk you're taking when you do. I've followed the various "hacking" projects (Xbox, etc) enough to have seen this all before. If GM wants to, this could easily turn into an arms race.
UCF w00t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:36 PM   #53
BlackinBlack
 
BlackinBlack's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Camaro ZL1 Black
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 710
I started this post and for me wanting to "hide" a tune is for warranty of things not related to the tune. My car "might" have a bad output shaft on the transmission. On stock cars they are breaking with stock HP so a tune will not change that. If I tune then now I pay for a factory defect that should be covered. Same goes with the CV joints in the rear. Many are breaking on stock cars.

I assume that most people are like me and not looking to cheat GM but to be covered on factory defects even after modding their cars. If I tuned my motor and I grenade the motor due to a lean condition... my fault and I would be looking to buy a new LSX motor. That is not the issue. With the track record of issues in the driveline many are gun shy to tune and then pay for a breakage that would have occurred without a tune.

In addition some unscrupulous dealers have been known to void the car's whole warranty. Again getting a tune should not effect the warranty of the radio or the power seat. It would just be easier to deal with this things if they are not even called to be an issue from a tune.

As for a tuner paying for repairs. They are as liable as they make themselves. As someone that has owned a business were we were modifying products. (Overclocking computers) The tuner needs to "spell out" their responsibility if things go wrong and make that very clear. (I would recommend a lawyer to look at it to insure it is correct and legal.) That way the buyer understands what the guarantee is by the tuner and who is responsible for repairs if something does go wrong.

With this tuner he sounds very reputable and tons of knowledge. It also sounds like he does not have the capital to transfer the responsibility of the warranty to his company if GM was to void a warranty. For him I would make that clear. Then the consumer can make the choice.
__________________
2013 ZL1 BLACK on BLACK
Roto-Fab CAI

2010 2SS/RS BLACK on BLACK <SOLD>
3" MBRP 304 Stainless Exhaust
Roto-Fab CAI
BlackinBlack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:39 PM   #54
kelley@vectormotorsports
 
Drives: 2009 Pontiac G8 GT
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
Posts: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackinBlack View Post
I started this post and for me wanting to "hide" a tune is for warranty of things not related to the tune. My car "might" have a bad output shaft on the transmission. On stock cars they are breaking with stock HP so a tune will not change that. If I tune then now I pay for a factory defect that should be covered. Same goes with the CV joints in the rear. Many are breaking on stock cars.

I assume that most people are like me and not looking to cheat GM but to be covered on factory defects even after modding their cars. If I tuned my motor and I grenade the motor due to a lean condition... my fault and I would be looking to buy a new LSX motor. That is not the issue. With the track record of issues in the driveline many are gun shy to tune and then pay for a breakage that would have occurred without a tune.

In addition some unscrupulous dealers have been known to void the car's whole warranty. Again getting a tune should not effect the warranty of the radio or the power seat. It would just be easier to deal with this things if they are not even called to be an issue from a tune.

As for a tuner paying for repairs. They are as liable as they make themselves. As someone that has owned a business were we were modifying products. (Overclocking computers) The tuner needs to "spell out" their responsibility if things go wrong and make that very clear. (I would recommend a lawyer to look at it to insure it is correct and legal.) That way the buyer understands what the guarantee is by the tuner and who is responsible for repairs if something does go wrong.

With this tuner he sounds very reputable and tons of knowledge. It also sounds like he does not have the capital to transfer the responsibility of the warranty to his company if GM was to void a warranty. For him I would make that clear. Then the consumer can make the choice.
Very well said, thanks.
kelley@vectormotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:46 PM   #55
chevy454
 
chevy454's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 Yenko Camaro - 11.73 @ 118
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 178
I know they started keeping an eye on non-factory calibrations in the diesel world when the LMM Duramax came about, but quickly retro'd it back to the '06-'07.5 LLY/LBZ, as well as the '05 LLY (you can read one of the GM bulletins HERE)...so it wouldn't surprise me a bit if GM was doing the same thing in the Camaro, or across the entire model line for that matter. And it's not up to the dealer whether they do it or not, for any drivetrain related warranty work they require a snapshot of the calibration ID from the tech II. Luckily, my LB7 is exempt, but I know a couple guys here in town who's Dmax's went down, and were red flagged because of non-factory calibrations...
chevy454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:47 PM   #56
UCF w00t
Geek
 
UCF w00t's Avatar
 
Drives: IOM 2010 Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Orlando
Posts: 4,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackinBlack View Post
I started this post and for me wanting to "hide" a tune is for warranty of things not related to the tune. My car "might" have a bad output shaft on the transmission. On stock cars they are breaking with stock HP so a tune will not change that. If I tune then now I pay for a factory defect that should be covered. Same goes with the CV joints in the rear. Many are breaking on stock cars.

I assume that most people are like me and not looking to cheat GM but to be covered on factory defects even after modding their cars. If I tuned my motor and I grenade the motor due to a lean condition... my fault and I would be looking to buy a new LSX motor. That is not the issue. With the track record of issues in the driveline many are gun shy to tune and then pay for a breakage that would have occurred without a tune.

In addition some unscrupulous dealers have been known to void the car's whole warranty. Again getting a tune should not effect the warranty of the radio or the power seat. It would just be easier to deal with this things if they are not even called to be an issue from a tune.

As for a tuner paying for repairs. They are as liable as they make themselves. As someone that has owned a business were we were modifying products. (Overclocking computers) The tuner needs to "spell out" their responsibility if things go wrong and make that very clear. (I would recommend a lawyer to look at it to insure it is correct and legal.) That way the buyer understands what the guarantee is by the tuner and who is responsible for repairs if something does go wrong.

With this tuner he sounds very reputable and tons of knowledge. It also sounds like he does not have the capital to transfer the responsibility of the warranty to his company if GM was to void a warranty. For him I would make that clear. Then the consumer can make the choice.
Well put. But I think part of the problem is that the "undetectable" claim has been tossed around. If you're going to even insinuate this sort of thing, you better be damn sure and be prepared to back it up with data/facts. It sounds like they have taken measures to make it less detectable. I would leave it at that because as far as I've seen, there has not been enough information put out there to claim anything more. It's just like a software maker saying that their product is unhackable. You're going to get a LOT of people saying "O RLY?"
UCF w00t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 04:04 PM   #57
khislop007
ZEUSS
 
khislop007's Avatar
 
Drives: Hard!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 2,576
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackinBlack View Post
I started this post and for me wanting to "hide" a tune is for warranty of things not related to the tune. My car "might" have a bad output shaft on the transmission. On stock cars they are breaking with stock HP so a tune will not change that. If I tune then now I pay for a factory defect that should be covered. Same goes with the CV joints in the rear. Many are breaking on stock cars.

I assume that most people are like me and not looking to cheat GM but to be covered on factory defects even after modding their cars. If I tuned my motor and I grenade the motor due to a lean condition... my fault and I would be looking to buy a new LSX motor. That is not the issue. With the track record of issues in the driveline many are gun shy to tune and then pay for a breakage that would have occurred without a tune.

In addition some unscrupulous dealers have been known to void the car's whole warranty. Again getting a tune should not effect the warranty of the radio or the power seat. It would just be easier to deal with this things if they are not even called to be an issue from a tune.

As for a tuner paying for repairs. They are as liable as they make themselves. As someone that has owned a business were we were modifying products. (Overclocking computers) The tuner needs to "spell out" their responsibility if things go wrong and make that very clear. (I would recommend a lawyer to look at it to insure it is correct and legal.) That way the buyer understands what the guarantee is by the tuner and who is responsible for repairs if something does go wrong.

With this tuner he sounds very reputable and tons of knowledge. It also sounds like he does not have the capital to transfer the responsibility of the warranty to his company if GM was to void a warranty. For him I would make that clear. Then the consumer can make the choice.
__________________
khislop007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 04:11 PM   #58
2Tightwads
Banned
 
Drives: 2002 LS1 swapped into a 1994 Z
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 388
Anytime you get a professional tune you sign a waiver, period. Nothing is covered. I mean nothing. They don't need a GM Warranty proof statement. Literal off-road vehicle use only is clearly stated even in the instructions with the handhelds. heck its up to the shop to even cover something that breaks after they install it. Read the fine print on estimates/contracts folks its all there.
2Tightwads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 01:30 AM   #59
OBSSEST
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS RS, Black
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 413
I'm paranoid too, and don't want to risk my warranty.... but

dealerships don't seem to have any knowledge of why we have weights stuck on our brake calipers, or why we have had to pull fuses #5 and #20. Do they really have any idea if somebody got a tune? Has anyone had a dealership recognize they had a tune without divulging that information beforehand?
OBSSEST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 10:12 AM   #60
chevy454
 
chevy454's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 Yenko Camaro - 11.73 @ 118
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanandGreen View Post
I'm paranoid too, and don't want to risk my warranty.... but

dealerships don't seem to have any knowledge of why we have weights stuck on our brake calipers, or why we have had to pull fuses #5 and #20. Do they really have any idea if somebody got a tune? Has anyone had a dealership recognize they had a tune without divulging that information beforehand?
As I said before, GM now requires a snapshot from the tech 2 on the diesels before any drivetrain related warranty work...on the Camaro (any '10+ stuff?) they use a "global diagnostic system" which is online (with GM I believe), so they've basically taken the *call* out of the dealers hands. I believe there's a bulletin out there covering all this...

Again, I don't work at a dealership, but a buddy of mine is the service manager at a dealer, so I get to hear/see a lot of this second hand. I'm not bashing tuning/tuners (ours is being tuned this very minute!) but don't think for a second GM doesn't know/care if guys are modding their cars for more power, thus increasing the risk for more warranty related payouts...
__________________
'69 Yenko Camaro - 11.73 @ 118, on F70-15 Polyglass tires, Pure Stock
'10 Yenko Camaro - 11.75 @ 117, LS7+A6+Converter
chevy454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2009, 09:52 AM   #61
Dr Jkel
and MR. HYDE
 
Dr Jkel's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS RJT/BLK 6Spd Man
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Oxford, Alabama
Posts: 4,461
Remeber, NOTHING is undetectable, even Stealth Bombers are detectable, boils down to a real simple thing. If you change/mod/tune/edit or whatever you want to call it this vehicle and GM can find a legit reason to deny your warranty they will. TO me it's not worth 20 or 30 hp. Isn't this car fast enough?

One other question I have about these mods/tunes etc .... is this, I have a 2500HD 4x4 with oversized wheels and tires, 33x12.5x17, not factory, but were on the vehicle when I bought it ( wheels are from Southern Comfort) brand new. The front hubs were wore out after 45000 miles, GM/Dealership tried to decline the warranty saying the oversized wheels and added weight caused the failure. After they realized that they sold me the vehicle that way, they had to warranty it, hoever after that this dealership and many around refuse to put aftermarket wheels and tires on the vehicle unless they are comprable to wheels and tires GM sells i.e. 20's on a truck.

So I say all that to sat this, if you change you car then you will pay, if someone makes a claim then they should back up their claims. If someone questions your claims then that is part of doing business and should be expected, the days of taking someones word is OVER, Remember " Yes I will sell it to you at MSRP" JMHO
__________________
MUSTANG...Like Bringing a Hot Dog to a Steak Dinner....There is no comparison.
Dr Jkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2009, 03:35 PM   #62
axis
Search Ninja
 
axis's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Black 2SS/RS A6
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Ark
Posts: 7,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevy454 View Post
As I said before, GM now requires a snapshot from the tech 2 on the diesels before any drivetrain related warranty work...on the Camaro (any '10+ stuff?) they use a "global diagnostic system" which is online (with GM I believe), so they've basically taken the *call* out of the dealers hands. I believe there's a bulletin out there covering all this....
If the tech bulletin in post #15 is what you're referring to, it's full of IFs. To me that doesn't say that it's required to send a copy of the ECU report to get the warranty work done. That doesn't constitute taking it out of the dealers hands. It gives them a recourse of action should they choose to deny your warranty claim.

Quote:
Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.
Axis

Last edited by axis; 10-15-2009 at 10:30 PM.
axis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 03:17 AM   #63
427 Fred
 
Drives: 2010 CAMARO 2SS, VR, AUTO, LS7, DO
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seguin, Tx
Posts: 29
I had a Chevy dealer replace my L99 engine with a LS7 (dealer option ). The engine would not run with the L99 tune. The mechanic tried to down load from GM a tune for the LS7 crate engine and was told by Chevy that they did not support engine swaps.
I then called customer service at Chevrolet and got the same answer. My position was the dealer sold me the car with the LS7 option and they also sold me the crate engine and there fore was obligated to provide the tune. The problem was they down load the tune based on the cars VN# and they can't change what the car came from the factory with. They then refered me to a problem specialist at GM who said I should have a aftermarket tune done on the car as they could not do it.
I was also told that the engine swap was covered under warranty as the motor was a GM crate engine.
427 Fred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 06:02 AM   #64
camaro1

 
camaro1's Avatar
 
Drives: 550+RWHP 2010 camaro
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by 427 Fred View Post
I had a Chevy dealer replace my L99 engine with a LS7 (dealer option ). The engine would not run with the L99 tune. The mechanic tried to down load from GM a tune for the LS7 crate engine and was told by Chevy that they did not support engine swaps.
I then called customer service at Chevrolet and got the same answer. My position was the dealer sold me the car with the LS7 option and they also sold me the crate engine and there fore was obligated to provide the tune. The problem was they down load the tune based on the cars VN# and they can't change what the car came from the factory with. They then refered me to a problem specialist at GM who said I should have a aftermarket tune done on the car as they could not do it.
I was also told that the engine swap was covered under warranty as the motor was a GM crate engine.



gm does not sell the camaro with the LS7 option(lol), your car has no gm powertrain warranty anymore, truth!, you will get the engine warranty for buying a gm crate engine.
__________________
415ci stroker, TVS 2300 Magnacharger, cnc heads, cam, yank ss3200 converter, Kooks long tubes, Bwoody true cold air kit, ZL1 Pump, magnaflow 3" cat-back, lowering springs,BMR control arms and tie rod bars, 3.73 gears, diff mounts, RX can, ADM fuel controller
camaro1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 12:42 PM   #65
axis
Search Ninja
 
axis's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Black 2SS/RS A6
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Ark
Posts: 7,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by camaro1 View Post
gm does not sell the camaro with the LS7 option(lol), your car has no gm powertrain warranty anymore, truth!, you will get the engine warranty for buying a gm crate engine.
BUT, if you go by several in this thread, his warranty will be immediately voided since he HAS to get a aftermarket tune to get it to run, truth?
axis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 04:18 PM   #66
HaveBlue
 
HaveBlue's Avatar
 
Drives: CTS/CAMARO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SEMA/PERF INDUSTRY GUY
Posts: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
If the tech bulletin in post #15 is what you're referring to, it's full of IFs. To me that doesn't say that it's required to send a copy of the ECU report to get the warranty work done. That doesn't constitute taking it out of the dealers hands. It gives them a recourse of action should they choose to deny your warranty claim.

Axis
What he's saying is that bulletin applies to pre-2010 model year vehicles. The new system is an internet based system. A PC connects to the ALDL (ODBII) port via a cable or wireless transmitter and is live to the internet. Data recieved, related to your VIN is stored by GM, not the dealership.

http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/2...em-update.html
__________________
"everyone wants to go to heaven. but nobody wants to die" "you gotta pay to play"

SEMA PICTURES-PARTS & CARS
http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/sema_2009
HaveBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 11:21 PM   #67
axis
Search Ninja
 
axis's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Black 2SS/RS A6
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Ark
Posts: 7,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveBlue View Post
What he's saying is that bulletin applies to pre-2010 model year vehicles. The new system is an internet based system. A PC connects to the ALDL (ODBII) port via a cable or wireless transmitter and is live to the internet. Data recieved, related to your VIN is stored by GM, not the dealership.

http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/2...em-update.html
I was wondering if they would come out with something better since that bulletin mentioned up to 09 vehicles. Since nothing else had come out, that was all we had to go on. That should make for a MUCH better diagnostic tool. It doesn't change anything in regards to this thread though. If the CVL codes match and there is no counter, how can they tell anything? I'm not telling everyone to get a tune and swap back and forth to get warranty work, but it is a possibility until someone gets denied after doing it. I have heard of one person having warranty work done without a problem, but haven't heard of anyone being denied. I see both sides of this discussion but nothing has been 100% confirmed one way or the other. In the end, it's do it at your own risk.
axis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2009, 01:13 AM   #68
mtcwby
High on "The Camaro Life"
 
mtcwby's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS, IOM, LS3, Vortech, LG cam
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Big Sandy, MT & Yuma, AZ
Posts: 1,028
Send a message via AIM to mtcwby
You guys have to remember one thing. SEMA got a law passed that says that the car manufacturer cannot void a warranty just because you installed aftermarket parts. The burden of proof is on the manufacturer to prove that the aftermarket part caused the failure. It's the law. Contact SEMA for more details if you have a problem with warranty coverage.
__________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not."-Thomas Jefferson------Going Strong at 39,250 miles
mtcwby is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flash drive issues 2010CamaroOutlaw Audio, Video, Bluetooth, Navigation, Radar, Electronics Forum 1 09-16-2009 02:57 PM
Driven Performance ECM Flash on a Stock SS = +20hp / +30tq Driven Performance Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 23 06-14-2009 12:43 AM
ECU Tune derin11 Camaro V6 LLT Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 1 05-29-2009 08:07 AM
ECU Pics? Jonmalibuss Camaro Photos | Spyshots | Video | Media Gallery 8 05-14-2009 02:55 PM
itunes to Flash drive question Eighty-Six Z Audio, Video, Bluetooth, Navigation, Radar, Electronics Forum 15 04-27-2009 05:39 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.