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Old 10-02-2009, 01:46 PM   #1
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I want the Z28 to be the BEST!

I just watched a video that said in 2012 Ford is looking to put twin turbo's on the Shelby GT500 that would make the car produce 600 horsepower maybe more. I really hope that Chevrolet will come out with a Z28 that has over 600 hp to match it like an engine close to the ZR1. What do you guys think they would do to respond to this I wonder. This will be after the 2011 Z28 beats the Shelby GT500 in its first year back in horsepower number.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:51 PM   #2
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People hate me for this but I don't think the Camaro should try to beat the GT500 on performance, just on price. GM has Corvettes that beat the GT500, I think that's all they need.

Give us a car that's within 50hp of the GT500 for $5k-$10k less and we win. But that's my opinion.

Regardless of what GM does, they sure lit a fire under Ford's ass, didn't they?
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:01 PM   #3
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I, like Blue, hope that GM makes some version of the Camaro that swings for the fence! If they make the Z/28 a better handling version of the SS and then make a ZL1 that is an all out monster with the LS9 or LS8 motor in it that would be my dream come true!

I know that not everyone wants the world like me so I think this route would make everyone happy.
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:06 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
People hate me for this but I don't think the Camaro should try to beat the GT500 on performance, just on price. GM has Corvettes that beat the GT500, I think that's all they need.

Give us a car that's within 50hp of the GT500 for $5k-$10k less and we win. But that's my opinion.

Regardless of what GM does, they sure lit a fire under Ford's ass, didn't they?
+1 on that statement. The line of Corvettes that are out are comparably priced and powered to deal with the Shelby's. Hell, with a few mods, the SS will give a GT500 a good run. I've always been impressed with the power and performance of the LT and LS powerplants. It's good to see them going after each other like this, great for the consumer.
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Old 10-04-2009, 06:01 PM   #5
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I just watched a video that said in 2012 Ford is looking to put twin turbo's on the Shelby GT500 that would make the car produce 600 horsepower maybe more. I really hope that Chevrolet will come out with a Z28 that has over 600 hp to match it like an engine close to the ZR1. What do you guys think they would do to respond to this I wonder. This will be after the 2011 Z28 beats the Shelby GT500 in its first year back in horsepower number.
it's no big deal. even with 600 hp it will only run 12 flat and likely be more money and slower than the soon coming c7
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Couple months ago we a few of us were at the track playing with one of my buddies 2010 Z06 automatic.Between 4 of us NO ONE was able to get out of the 12's.

I believe torque managnent was killing us that night, when launching the car would take off and fall flat on it's face.
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Old 10-04-2009, 06:38 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
People hate me for this but I don't think the Camaro should try to beat the GT500 on performance, just on price. GM has Corvettes that beat the GT500, I think that's all they need.

Give us a car that's within 50hp of the GT500 for $5k-$10k less and we win. But that's my opinion.

Regardless of what GM does, they sure lit a fire under Ford's ass, didn't they?

Ok repeat after me, the Camaro and Corvette are not in the same market segment and are not in competition with each other. Nor is the Vette in the same market as the GT-500. I don't hear you complaining about the 556hp CTS-V right??? Thats because both the CTS-V and the camaro appeal to different buyers than people who are seeking a high performance 2 seater.
Besides, Desiring a Camaro that has less performance than a Mustang is blasphamous... lol.
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
People hate me for this but I don't think the Camaro should try to beat the GT500 on performance, just on price. GM has Corvettes that beat the GT500, I think that's all they need.

Give us a car that's within 50hp of the GT500 for $5k-$10k less and we win. But that's my opinion.

Regardless of what GM does, they sure lit a fire under Ford's ass, didn't they?
Where were you when I was posting this? I got fire-roasted, barbecued, and grilled for this, not to mention getting flamed.

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Originally Posted by 99-LS1-SS View Post
I, like Blue, hope that GM makes some version of the Camaro that swings for the fence! If they make the Z/28 a better handling version of the SS and then make a ZL1 that is an all out monster with the LS9 or LS8 motor in it that would be my dream come true!

I know that not everyone wants the world like me so I think this route would make everyone happy.
I'd love to see a ZL1 that takes cues from the Corvette ZR1, including the LS9. Sharing engines does always make them a little cheaper to produce, so this could be less of a dream and more of a reality someday.

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Originally Posted by REEFBLUE93 View Post
+1 on that statement. The line of Corvettes that are out are comparably priced and powered to deal with the Shelby's. Hell, with a few mods, the SS will give a GT500 a good run. I've always been impressed with the power and performance of the LT and LS powerplants. It's good to see them going after each other like this, great for the consumer.
The GT500 is not that much faster than the SS, and Hennessey has proven this by rocking the GT500 with one of its Camaros. I wouldn't expect GM to take any shortcuts on a Z28, but it is worth noting that GM does not have a car that acts as a superior to the Mustang, which brings me to the next post.

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Ok repeat after me, the Camaro and Corvette are not in the same market segment and are not in competition with each other. Nor is the Vette in the same market as the GT-500. I don't hear you complaining about the 556hp CTS-V right??? Thats because both the CTS-V and the camaro appeal to different buyers than people who are seeking a high performance 2 seater.
Besides, Desiring a Camaro that has less performance than a Mustang is blasphamous... lol.
:seesaw: I agree that the 4-seater Mustang and the 2-seater Corvette are very different markets, but let's take a close look at how they are marketed. The Corvette is marketed as a symbol of GM success, featuring a version that defeats some of the world's most notorious racers for a price that barely breaks 6 digits. In contrast, Ford has never marketed the Mustang as a supercar, leaving that to Saleen instead. Without a 2-seater Ford flagship, Ford pushes the Mustang as a performance car for everyone with classic styling and affordable performance. This is the exact description that GM enthusiasts, insiders, and market professionals would use to describe the Camaro. The difference is that the Camaro and Mustang, while competing, have not always made models that compete directly with one another.

For instance, the Mustang GT constitutes a pony car with a performance-oriented V8 engine. The Camaro SS has a similar description, but the Z28 has always been seen as a performance car, as well, traditionallay featuring a sophisticated suspension and an engine with lower displacement but similar performance numbers. The Mustang has implemented a track package on the GT as an option, which suggests that the GT is trying to either keep up with a far superior SS or trying to compensate for lacking in this department while GM is releasing an even more advanced Camaro in addition to the already superior SS.

Now, let's look at the GT500. Having established that the SS and Z28 were in similar performance divisions, the GT500 fits in a superior performance lineup. Popular alternatives to the SS and Z28 are limited to 1LE, BCE, and ZL1. Since the 1LE was sort of a secret for a little while and the BCE is the police package, the logical conclusion is that GT500 fighters would cruise the streets in a ZL1.

For Ford, however, the Corvette of the lineup has to be the GT500, marketed as the dominant domestic 4-seater. Obviously, Chevrolet enthusiasts would dispute this with a similarly priced Corvette. In performance terms, it makes sense that Ford would have to compete in this market, but never having a mainstream car in the Corvette-Viper segment of the market would make introducing one difficult and likely unprofitable. After all, Ford has done well for itself with an inferior Mustang GT500 as its flagship. Since the ZL1 is an exclusive, rare model, it makes sense that the more common Corvette would run against the GT500 simply because they are both common enough to be opponents.

In my opinion, the ZL1 is the best opponent for a GT500. That being said, I also should point out that the GT500 is considered a high-performance car while the ZL1 is considered a rare high-performance car. This rarity makes it a poor competitor, so the next best competitor is the Corvette, and that is why the connection is made between the Corvette and the GT500.
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:21 PM   #8
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The GT500's are around 11.8's stock. They are considerably faster. But I disagree with the one saying the Z/28 shouldn't outperform the GT500. That will be the Z/28's tier competition, why shouldn't it try to outperform it? And if I was GM, I'd rather make one more higher tier car than two more higher tier cars, it's more cost effect for a company that shouldn't be throwing money around at the moment.
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:44 PM   #9
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I have to disagree Blur, The C7 will likely go up in price point and is right around the corner. Also if I remeber correctly back in the 60's a fully optioned out camaro Z/28 was one of the most expensive versions of the camaro (those corvette 4-wheel disc brakes were not cheap back then). Chevy can make a 50k Z/28, JIMHO it should be geared for the purist who want an awesome track car that can also be driven daily on the streets.

Edit: that is what the Z/28 was, the only reason it had low displacement is because of transam racing. But that is no longer going on any more. Thus the door is open for any motor in GM inventory.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:46 PM   #10
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Muscle car vs. sports car, this debate has already been brought up numerous times. Two different classes of cars. Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:53 PM   #11
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Ok repeat after me, the Camaro and Corvette are not in the same market segment and are not in competition with each other. Nor is the Vette in the same market as the GT-500. I don't hear you complaining about the 556hp CTS-V right??? Thats because both the CTS-V and the camaro appeal to different buyers than people who are seeking a high performance 2 seater.
Besides, Desiring a Camaro that has less performance than a Mustang is blasphamous... lol.
A Z28 would be compared against both Corvettes and the CTS-V if it's priced high enough (~$50k). What makes you think it wouldn't be?

Besides, it would be a mistake for GM to price the Z28 that high. They've pretty much proved that there's an untapped market for muscle in the $30k-$40k range. They should place the Z28 in the top end of that range, not leave it all together.

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I have to disagree Blur, The C7 will likely go up in price point and is right around the corner.
I don't think car prices will go up any time soon.

Last edited by 2010-1SS-IBM; 10-04-2009 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Additional response.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:55 PM   #12
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LMAO at Blur's wikipedia entry above. Reminds me of...
"Why are firetrucks red?"
"A firetruck has a driver,
a driver has a foot,
a foot is twelve inches,
twelve inches makes a ruler,
a ruler is Queen Elizabeth,
Queen Elizabeth is a ship,
a ship sails the seas,
the seas have fish,
fish have fins,
the Finns fought the Russians,
and firetrucks are ALWAYS rushin'...
That's why firetrucks are red!"

The Mustang and Camaro are market competitors, the Corvette is in a different segment.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:25 AM   #13
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Muscle car vs. sports car, this debate has already been brought up numerous times. Two different classes of cars. Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
so what is your ford boys excuses with the cts-v then? just wondering.
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Couple months ago we a few of us were at the track playing with one of my buddies 2010 Z06 automatic.Between 4 of us NO ONE was able to get out of the 12's.

I believe torque managnent was killing us that night, when launching the car would take off and fall flat on it's face.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:12 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by WYD OPN View Post
LMAO at Blur's wikipedia entry above. Reminds me of...
"Why are firetrucks red?"
"A firetruck has a driver,
a driver has a foot,
a foot is twelve inches,
twelve inches makes a ruler,
a ruler is Queen Elizabeth,
Queen Elizabeth is a ship,
a ship sails the seas,
the seas have fish,
fish have fins,
the Finns fought the Russians,
and firetrucks are ALWAYS rushin'...
That's why firetrucks are red!"


The Mustang and Camaro are market competitors, the Corvette is in a different segment.
Dude that is an EPIC story lol. Who has that much free time to think of that?
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:55 PM   #15
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so what is your ford boys excuses with the cts-v then? just wondering.
Excuses, I see no excuses just facts. Ford has nothing to compare with the Vette, unless its a Ford GT which they don't make anymore and Ford has nothing to compare with the CTS-V...so what's your point? No excuses, Ford just has nothing in the same sports car class or the sport sedan class or whatever the CTS-V falls under. Whats wrong with that? Who said Ford needed anything to compare witht the Vette or CTS-V??
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:48 PM   #16
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You can come up with all sorts of reasons why the corvette shouldn't be compared to the pony cars, but the fact is that people with $60,000 to spend DO ask themselves "should I get a corvette or a high-end pony car?" They are, in fact, in competition, even if theory says they shouldn't be.

It's because of this that I don't think GM will make the Z28 all that powerful. Corvette is a cherished icon for the company, and something like a 600hp Camaro would be too much GM-to-GM competition (regardless of whether or not it has a back seat), and I think the company's learned its lesson about competing against its own brands.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:15 PM   #17
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$60,000, where are you getting this number from?? The GT500 fully loaded, tax, title and everything isn't even close to $60k lol. Believe me I know, my 2010 GT500 came with every available option. And no people with $60k do not always ask themselves "should i get a corvette or a high-end pony car?" I had $60k to spend and the vette wasn't even in the picture...no back seat not possible for me. Sounds cheesy but that's the way it is.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:29 PM   #18
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I really don't see people cross shopping the Corvette and the GT500, they are too different. As said Corvette is a 2 seater Sportscar, the GT500 is a pony car, plain and simple, A Z28 on the other hand would be as direct as it gets and a lot more fun IMHO.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:29 PM   #19
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I would guarantee they cross shop them since they are at the same price point. The average customer will get the best bang for his/her buck, and I doubt before they go they say to themselves, "I'm not going to compare the Corvette and GT500's because they're in different categories as cars."
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:36 PM   #20
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well they said z28 going to be $55K so that doesnt seem cheaper then the GT500 so lets kick its ass on the performance stats and track
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:42 PM   #21
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The 2 seater vs 4 seater is a big deciding factor. People looking for a performance car will sometimes be cross shopping the Corvette, Camaro & GT500. I was cross shopping all 3 before I made a decision to get the Camaro and make it as close to the other 2 as I could get. It was the seat option that made me make my choice, upon a request from my wife of course.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:55 PM   #22
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I would guarantee they cross shop them since they are at the same price point. The average customer will get the best bang for his/her buck, and I doubt before they go they say to themselves, "I'm not going to compare the Corvette and GT500's because they're in different categories as cars."
Yeah, like i said one has a back seat the other doesn't. I'm sure there are alot of people who need back seats even if it's not much. Kids, extra room, whatever it may be. So why would they even take into consideration a vette if a back seat is a must?? They wont say "I'm not going to compare the vette with the gt500 because they're in different categories as cars." They will say "I'm not going to compare the vette and gt500 cause one has a back seat and the other doesn't and i need a back seat." Very simple logic, I'm sorry if certain people don't understand. They will look at M3's, maybe some kind of mercedes, a gt500, 370z, a GT-R (has a back seat believe it or not) if they have enough money but they will not look at a vette cause it has no back seat. Simple as that. Not saying that no one will cross shop the vette and gt500, just saying that not everyone does like your "guarantee" states.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:06 PM   #23
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Yeah, like i said one has a back seat the other doesn't. I'm sure there are alot of people who need back seats even if it's not much. Kids, extra room, whatever it may be. So why would they even take into consideration a vette if a back seat is a must?? They wont say "I'm not going to compare the vette with the gt500 because they're in different categories as cars." They will say "I'm not going to compare the vette and gt500 cause one has a back seat and the other doesn't and i need a back seat." Very simple logic, I'm sorry if certain people don't understand. They will look at M3's, maybe some kind of mercedes, a gt500, 370z, a GT-R (has a back seat believe it or not) if they have enough money but they will not look at a vette cause it has no back seat. Simple as that. Not saying that no one will cross shop the vette and gt500, just saying that not everyone does like your "guarantee" states.
You're missing the point... you're saying they're different classes of car and which you are right. Cross-shopping means they will buy whichever car that fits their needs, and I'll use your example of the backseat problem. They looked at both cars and found the GT500 to be a better buy because of a backseat, and no one is arguing with you on that lol. So I'm sure this sticks to my guarantee...
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:25 AM   #24
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I would guarantee they cross shop them since they are at the same price point. The average customer will get the best bang for his/her buck, and I doubt before they go they say to themselves, "I'm not going to compare the Corvette and GT500's because they're in different categories as cars."
it's just a ford owner internet thing. they like feeling oh so superior but when someone mentions z06 then they realize they own the slowest 500+ hp car ever made.
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Couple months ago we a few of us were at the track playing with one of my buddies 2010 Z06 automatic.Between 4 of us NO ONE was able to get out of the 12's.

I believe torque managnent was killing us that night, when launching the car would take off and fall flat on it's face.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:25 AM   #25
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THis is funny because the latest issue of Car and Driver has a comparison between the Corvette Gran Sport and the GT500. THe Vette won, but what stuck out was there was a huge price difference. THe Vette started at like 55k and the way it was optioned out to 65k. Big difference! Given it was a Grand Sport, but that its what it takes to get the betteer suspension package (Z51) now. They are 2 totally different cars, of course you could crossshop, but using the fact that people will is a huge contradiction to what goes on when the Camaro is compared to say a M3 or C63 where everyone is ike no they won't crossshop those, but heck, lets just use the Vette against the GT500 even though a M3 has a lot more in common with a Camaro SS than a Corvette has in common with a GT500....................
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