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Old 04-25-2012, 06:20 PM   #9176
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So i am bout to make a road trip from Good old middle of no where Starkville MS to Boise Idaho. Anyone have any idea on some nice interesting roads and sights to see on my way?

Time is not an issue. Just wish I had a Camaro to do it in.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:33 PM   #9177
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The heat soak issue is.....curious. Many have it in their best interests to present the stock configuration as "horrible" and "bad"...and none of the cars in shops currently....are broken in.

Bear in mind the car ran the 'Ring in 7:41...lapped VIR numerous times until Aaron achieved a blistering 2:52...and performed admirably in a 24-hour road-course testing. With all these accolades and credits to its name...how can it possibly be as horrible as some are representing it as? My very humble opinion is that it isn't.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:34 PM   #9178
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Hmmmmmm road trip. Always fun. Sadly I have no suggestions due to lack of driving where you are going.

Have fun and drive safe.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:09 PM   #9179
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Quote:
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Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this but what is heat soak and isn't that what the inter cooler is for? Thanks
Shno's House of Z has no topic. You can ask anything you like, in here -- by the way -- Welcome to the forum!!!

Heat soak, essentially, is referring to the engine transferring heat from the block up towards the intake....in this case - it's up towards the supercharger on the LSA...and since the supercharger is metal, it retains and conducts this heat into where the air is being compressed and into where it's supposed to be cooled down by the intercooler (yes, the intercooler helps cool the air-charge).

Hot air being sucked into the combustion chamber is not good - it lowers the effective power the engine can produce due to physically there being LESS air inside to expand and push the cylinder down. So the goal is to chill the air as much as possible before it enters the combustion chamber. Heat-soak is counter-productive to this goal.

Over several high-rpm/load runs (such as racing or dyno tuning)...there's a lot of heat conducted to the supercharger area...some cars deal with it better than others...Ford improved the 2012 GT500s vastly over their past incarnations, for example.

I'm of the firm belief that these claims of terrible heat-soak and IATs in the ZL1 are.....exaggerated.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:16 PM   #9180
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Shno's House of Z has no topic. You can ask anything you like, in here -- by the way -- Welcome to the forum!!!

Heat soak, essentially, is referring to the engine transferring heat from the block up towards the intake....in this case - it's up towards the supercharger on the LSA...and since the supercharger is metal, it retains and conducts this heat into where the air is being compressed and into where it's supposed to be cooled down by the intercooler (yes, the intercooler helps cool the air-charge).

Hot air being sucked into the combustion chamber is not good - it lowers the effective power the engine can produce due to physically there being LESS air inside to expand and push the cylinder down. So the goal is to chill the air as much as possible before it enters the combustion chamber. Heat-soak is counter-productive to this goal.

Over several high-rpm/load runs (such as racing or dyno tuning)...there's a lot of heat conducted to the supercharger area...some cars deal with it better than others...Ford improved the 2012 GT500s vastly over their past incarnations, for example.

I'm of the firm belief that these claims of terrible heat-soak and IATs in the ZL1 are.....exaggerated.
And you don't have to look very far for confirmation that cooler air is conducive to more power, any day that is cool at a NASCAR track, you'll hear the announcers talking about the engines producing more HP due to the cooler air. And how well I remember that my '69 Z/28 always ran the best as soon as the roads dried after a cool rain (moist air helps produce better HP also), in fact all of my vehicles run better when it's cool/moist.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:18 PM   #9181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
The heat soak issue is.....curious. Many have it in their best interests to present the stock configuration as "horrible" and "bad"...and none of the cars in shops currently....are broken in.

Bear in mind the car ran the 'Ring in 7:41...lapped VIR numerous times until Aaron achieved a blistering 2:52...and performed admirably in a 24-hour road-course testing. With all these accolades and credits to its name...how can it possibly be as horrible as some are representing it as? My very humble opinion is that it isn't.

I realize the times. but I'd like to know the temps those days at those tracks. the 24hr test was broken up into 40 min sessions. beyond that information. was it 40 mins. look at data make a tweek send the car back out. or was it 40 mins today. 40 mins the next day. until we equal 24hrs of track testing. hense why I'm still concerned about heat soak.

I'd like to think that every shop is just trying to make their product look better. but in doing so, they are making GM look like they don't know what they are doing. So. . .looking at the private dynos. Heat soak was still an issue.

I do like the ZL1. And there's a reason I won't be buying it. and that's because I do intend to track a car if and when I get a coupe. I'm hoping a Z28 debuts by the time I can get it. with that said. I'm out for the night.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:24 PM   #9182
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I realize the times. but I'd like to know the temps those days at those tracks. the 24hr test was broken up into 40 min sessions. beyond that information. was it 40 mins. look at data make a tweek send the car back out. or was it 40 mins today. 40 mins the next day. until we equal 24hrs of track testing. hense why I'm still concerned about heat soak.

I'd like to think that every shop is just trying to make their product look better. but in doing so, they are making GM look like they don't know what they are doing. So. . .looking at the private dynos. Heat soak was still an issue.

I do like the ZL1. And there's a reason I won't be buying it. and that's because I do intend to track a car if and when I get a coupe. I'm hoping a Z28 debuts by the time I can get it. with that said. I'm out for the night.
The 24 test took place over 6 days, if memory serves. In many cases - they would do both...send the car out after data-logging and tweaking problems they encounter...and after a few sessions during the day - pull it in until tomorrow.

They would have had to log roughly 4 hours of racing per day.

I tend to stay quiet with regards to after-market marketing...the fact is they have much to gain by presenting the OEM product as inferior...I don't agree with the approach, but I'm in no position to judge - so I don't. And I understand, just like dealer markups...it is what it is.

As a last word...I think the heat-soak "issue" is a victim of this marketing practice. I DO believe it can be improved (as can most anything). I DON'T believe it sucks from the factory...


EDIT: Do the temperatures at the time of those lap times matter a great deal? Heat soak is accumulated. And over those severe conditions of racing...the engine, capable of melting the rear diffuser...won't care what the ambient temps are when generating lots and lots of heat...
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:24 AM   #9183
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The 24 test took place over 6 days, if memory serves. In many cases - they would do both...send the car out after data-logging and tweaking problems they encounter...and after a few sessions during the day - pull it in until tomorrow.

They would have had to log roughly 4 hours of racing per day.
Yes. My understanding is that six 40 minute track sessions, amounting to a total of 4 hours, were run each day for 6 days.


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I tend to stay quiet with regards to after-market marketing...the fact is they have much to gain by presenting the OEM product as inferior...I don't agree with the approach, but I'm in no position to judge - so I don't. And I understand, just like dealer markups...it is what it is.

As a last word...I think the heat-soak "issue" is a victim of this marketing practice. I DO believe it can be improved (as can most anything). I DON'T believe it sucks from the factory...
Agreed. Considering all of the testing and validation that Chevrolet performed on the ZL1, I don't think that the ZL1 in stock form will exhibit "huge" heat soak issues.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:15 AM   #9184
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Yes. My understanding is that six 40 minute track sessions, amounting to a total of 4 hours, were run each day for 6 days.



Agreed. Considering all of the testing and validation that Chevrolet performed on the ZL1, I don't think that the ZL1 in stock form will exhibit "huge" heat soak issues.
I haven't taken the time to really pay attention in the videos that we've seen, but duplicating airflow on the dyno' through the HE is also something to consider, that is a factor while on the track. I know we've seen some fans blowing, but I don't know how well typical dyno' fans really duplicate racetrack speeds. This might not be as important on the 1320', since there's only the airflow from the radiator fans until the car is moving, and since it's only moving for about 13 seconds, it seems to me dyno' conditions could really have an impact on efficiency.

I know that there are great products out there that would greatly improve the factory offerings, but I also really believe, in stock for, that Team ZL1/CAMARO really did their homework. I belive it is up to the owner to determine the path of performance they want to take the car and really consider what's going to be the most effective for their purpose.

Yeah - an NA Z28 would definately be a better track warrior IMO.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:15 PM   #9185
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I'm just not convinced that the LSA is up to a real enduro race. 40 min sessions makes me think of HPDE (high performance driving experience). pretty much track days for us common folk. Never mind the fact you have to find a series you can take the magnetic ride into. the LSA is a good engine. just not one that should have been marketed as a road race/track car engine, IMO. I think it will do great once people figure out the best ways to mod it. and I'm sure we'll see some people hitting low 11's with just bolt ons.

Now lets bring on the Z28 for the real road racing. but if the thing doesn't run low 12's stock in the 1/4 then ford fans will have something to say. lol.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:17 PM   #9186
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I'm just not convinced that the LSA is up to a real enduro race. 40 min sessions makes me think of HPDE (high performance driving experience). pretty much track days for us common folk. Never mind the fact you have to find a series you can take the magnetic ride into. the LSA is a good engine. just not one that should have been marketed as a road race/track car engine, IMO. I think it will do great once people figure out the best ways to mod it. and I'm sure we'll see some people hitting low 11's with just bolt ons.

Now lets bring on the Z28 for the real road racing. but if the thing doesn't run low 12's stock in the 1/4 then ford fans will have something to say. lol.
I think the CTS-V racer is doing alright in whatever series it's entered in...I forget the name. And the engine outlived the LS9 during endurance testing. I DEFINITELY see where you're coming from, don't get me wrong -- and I would tend to agree a N/A car with similar or at least close power would be much more ideal.

But at the same time, I think the LSA gets a bad rap for stereotypical things, some earned, some not so much....

I'll never be entering myself into the 24 hours of LeMans, though...so admirably tackling a few HPDE sessions once or twice a year is the most I'll ever demand of it.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:30 PM   #9187
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I think the CTS-V racer is doing alright in whatever series it's entered in...I forget the name. And the engine outlived the LS9 during endurance testing. I DEFINITELY see where you're coming from, don't get me wrong -- and I would tend to agree a N/A car with similar or at least close power would be much more ideal.

But at the same time, I think the LSA gets a bad rap for stereotypical things, some earned, some not so much....

I'll never be entering myself into the 24 hours of LeMans, though...so admirably tackling a few HPDE sessions once or twice a year is the most I'll ever demand of it.
Demand???? You are now making demands of this fabulous beast?
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:42 PM   #9188
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We share a mutually-demanding relationship....

In most cases...he demands that I not wet myself during certain maneuvers...

There's an old college professor who dislikes Camaros because....they're Camaros. He rented an SS in New Mexico last year for several thousand miles...thought it was okay...but found reasons to dislike it.......because it wasn't a Firebird.

I took him for a 40 mile cruise a couple of days ago...and there's a WONDERFUL sweeper on a back-roads highway you can maintain the speed limit on (when all others are halving their speeds or worse!)....bumps, course corrections, acceleration and braking were all being used and all he really did after things settled down was look at me and start laughing. He was quite silent while it was all happening...

He was very impressed...but it's not a Firebird.

So yeah -- I make small demands now and again....in return I take care of it so it'll always appear new.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:09 PM   #9189
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We share a mutually-demanding relationship....

In most cases...he demands that I not wet myself during certain maneuvers...

There's an old college professor who dislikes Camaros because....they're Camaros. He rented an SS in New Mexico last year for several thousand miles...thought it was okay...but found reasons to dislike it.......because it wasn't a Firebird.

I took him for a 40 mile cruise a couple of days ago...and there's a WONDERFUL sweeper on a back-roads highway you can maintain the speed limit on (when all others are halving their speeds or worse!)....bumps, course corrections, acceleration and braking were all being used and all he really did after things settled down was look at me and start laughing. He was quite silent while it was all happening...

He was very impressed...but it's not a Firebird.

So yeah -- I make small demands now and again....in return I take care of it so it'll always appear new.


World English Dictionary

symbiosis (ˌsɪmbɪˈəʊsɪs, ˌsɪmbaɪˈəʊsɪs)

— n
1. a close and usually obligatory association of two organisms of different species that live together, often to their mutual benefit

2. a similar relationship between interdependent persons or groups

Medical Dictionary

symbion sym·bi·on (sĭm'bē-ŏn', -bī-) or sym·bi·ote (-ōt') or sym·bi·ont (-ŏnt')

n.
An organism associated with another in symbiosis. Also called mutualist .



You, my good sir, are a SYMBION
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:13 PM   #9190
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Sounds like a disorder.......but I guess I'll take it.
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:03 PM   #9191
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I'm just not convinced that the LSA is up to a real enduro race. 40 min sessions makes me think of HPDE (high performance driving experience). pretty much track days for us common folk. Never mind the fact you have to find a series you can take the magnetic ride into. the LSA is a good engine. just not one that should have been marketed as a road race/track car engine, IMO. I think it will do great once people figure out the best ways to mod it. and I'm sure we'll see some people hitting low 11's with just bolt ons.

Now lets bring on the Z28 for the real road racing. but if the thing doesn't run low 12's stock in the 1/4 then ford fans will have something to say. lol.
A 40 minute session is brutally hard on a car if it is being run hard. All LS motors have an oil issue in steady state high G turns. The oil goes up, but puddles up top. SCCA T1 allowed dry sump conversions for the Vette years ago due to engine failures. If some one were to race a ZL1 in a series dry sumping and a massive oil cooler would be necessities.

Then again I subscribe to the if you aint breakin you aint racin philosophy. (Smokey Yunick I think) Pushed to the limit for an extended period of time you can break anything mechanical and should during testing. Find the weak links and fix them. Set the car up so you only run it at 95% for 95% of the race and you'll have the extra 5% when you need it. You see I also subscribe to this rule. Before you finish first, first you have to finish. (Juan Manuel Fangio)

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out at the track, but I think the ZL1 will be better than most expect it to be.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:55 AM   #9192
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Sounds like a disorder.......but I guess I'll take it.
...sounds cool....other worldly even ....SYMBION....seven letter word perfect for the license plate....
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:25 PM   #9193
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who's down? http://www.fbodybeachbash.com/track.php auto cross. . .lol.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:07 PM   #9194
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:05 PM   #9195
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CLEAR. LOL
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:06 PM   #9196
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CLEAR. LOL
Let me die.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:25 PM   #9197
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I love battlefield. wish I had brought my ps3 on this deployment. I could be playing that. I love that map they are supposedly playing.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:43 PM   #9198
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An "old favorite" made an re-appearance tonite in the General section...
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:51 PM   #9199
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Jinx never got back to me on making the front nose.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:07 PM   #9200
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An "old favorite" made an re-appearance tonite in the General section...
Is that a Berlinetta?
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