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Old 08-18-2012, 08:25 PM   #10176
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In AU, Holden was once like Chevy in the USA. The Holden brand has value in AU. Switching Holden to Chevy / Buick / Cadillac would require a major PR investment. Opel may not sound like much to us in the USA, but the perspective in Europe would place the home built Opel well ahead of Chevy or Buick. This too would require a major PR investment. GM knows this and they are working on making Chevrolet a global brand. In my mind the handwriting is on the wall and we'll see this rolled out over whatever many years. The first step is to break down the fiefdoms.

#3,

2.99 says
And Opel has had a few very interesting vehicles over the years. One of my favorites was the mid'70s Opel GT that was almost like a "mini Vette".
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:34 PM   #10177
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Holden means what globally? Anything come to mind? Is it Chevy? Pretty much.

What I mean is that for global presence you need to have your brand and you model mean something.

Case in point, BMW sell almost 1/2 a million 3 Series around the world. It's a 3 everywhere and it's a BMW everywhere.

The Holden Commodore is a Lumina in the Middle East and it was a Pontiac G8 in the US.

My point is not that Holden doesn't mean something in Australia because it does. It is simply that Holden doesn't mean anything anywhere else in the world.

If nothing else, it costs money to try to differentiate the Holden brand name. And at very minimum, it costs money for unique badges, grills etc.

On a regional basis it makes perfect sense. But that isn't GM's concern anymore it's from a Global perspective that matters now.

Toyota/Lexus
VW/Audi (ok add Porsche and Seat)
Ford/Lincoln
BMW/Mini
Mercedes
Nissan/Infiniti
Chevy/Buick/Cadillac/GMC/Vauxhall/Opel/Holden/Baojun

Each brand has an image and message that must be cultivated and maintained. What does the brand stand for? What does it convey to the customer?

At least Daewoo is gone and that was mostly driven by the fact that when given an option to buy the "Chevy Package" many did. So many in fact that it made it clear Daewoo was bad even in Korea. Now they are all Chevrolets

Except you can also buy a Buick LaCrosse in Korea. It's called an Alpheon. They show Buick badging in the website, but not on the car. And you see it listed in the Chevy Korea website as a "luxury" model. So is Alpheon now a brand? a Model?
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:33 AM   #10178
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On a much lighter note, I was Rick Rolled by the Chevrolet.com website this morning.

It kept opening pages to the point I had to reboot.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:08 PM   #10179
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Holden means what globally? Anything come to mind? Is it Chevy? Pretty much.

What I mean is that for global presence you need to have your brand and you model mean something.

Case in point, BMW sell almost 1/2 a million 3 Series around the world. It's a 3 everywhere and it's a BMW everywhere.

The Holden Commodore is a Lumina in the Middle East and it was a Pontiac G8 in the US.

My point is not that Holden doesn't mean something in Australia because it does. It is simply that Holden doesn't mean anything anywhere else in the world.

If nothing else, it costs money to try to differentiate the Holden brand name. And at very minimum, it costs money for unique badges, grills etc.

On a regional basis it makes perfect sense. But that isn't GM's concern anymore it's from a Global perspective that matters now.

Toyota/Lexus
VW/Audi (ok add Porsche and Seat)
Ford/Lincoln
BMW/Mini
Mercedes
Nissan/Infiniti
Chevy/Buick/Cadillac/GMC/Vauxhall/Opel/Holden/Baojun

Each brand has an image and message that must be cultivated and maintained. What does the brand stand for? What does it convey to the customer?

At least Daewoo is gone and that was mostly driven by the fact that when given an option to buy the "Chevy Package" many did. So many in fact that it made it clear Daewoo was bad even in Korea. Now they are all Chevrolets

Except you can also buy a Buick LaCrosse in Korea. It's called an Alpheon. They show Buick badging in the website, but not on the car. And you see it listed in the Chevy Korea website as a "luxury" model. So is Alpheon now a brand? a Model?
I agree 100%.

Alpheon means Buick in the Korean language,














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Old 08-20-2012, 09:01 AM   #10180
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Points to ponder:

Lexus, Acura and Infiniti were initially added for North American consumption (the Acura Legend was sold in Britain/Europe as a co-produced British-assembled "Sterling"...same name Ford Trucks became...and, unlamentably, long gone...). And they were added by single-Brand manufacturers to differentiate their new products AND their customers' buying/ownership experiences. Higher quality, higher prices, greater margins and expanded Market Share. "Halo" brands that have worked out rather well. They spoke to several consumer demands that weren't adequately and totally answered by the domestics. And the consumer is ALWAYS right...

Shedding nameplates/Divisions by GM is not a new/recent concept. Oakland...LaSalle...Cadet (stillborn)...Oldsmobile...Pontiac...Saturn...HUMM ER...

Canada: Mid-00s, GM-Canada enjoyed near 30% MS, and comfortably in 1st place. Then, oh-oh! Goodbye Pontiac, and then 40-some % of GM-Canada's dealers (83% had Pontiac on their signage) and today, GM-Canada is a distant 3rd (behind Ford and Chrysler) with well under 20% MS. Without aggressive fleet sales, they'd be 4th behind Toyota/Lexus... Why? Because Canadians loved their unique Chev-based Pontiacs for years 'n years, and continued to love them (Sunfire was the #1 selling retail compact and Montana outsold Venture, retail-wise, several years) after the Canadian versions were assimilated by their US counterparts. Sierra out-retailed Silverado many years as well. How could this be? Chev was duelled with Olds, and Pontiac was duelled with Buick, post-WWII. Pontiac-Buick sold GMC. And there were about as many Pontiac-Buick stores as Chev-Olds. More stores = more sales! What a concept! Reduce the number of stores, and you reduce the number of sales opportunities. Reduce the number of BRANDS and you reduce the number of sales opportunities, too...

There are many GMC owners who would rather drive an F-series, or Ram, or TUNDRA than drive a Chev truck...curious, maybe, but a FACT.

BTW, Australians LOVE their "Holdens"...and their economy is far enough away, and unique enough, that "Chevrolet" means very little/nothing to the non-enthusiast in Australia. Go over to GM Inside News and ask 'em...or better yet, ask Mark Reuss. He ran Holden for a time...

If you look at sales of Oldsmobile, pre-death announcement, Olds sold more than TWICE as many vehicles as Buick does today. "Oh, well..." If you look at Pontiac sales in '08, they sold just about TWICE as many vehicles in North America as Buick. "Oh, well..."

I'm here to tell you that Chevrolet will NOT maintain Corporate Market Share, all by itself, in the non-Luxury market. At best, you'll make Chevrolet the leading BRAND, but it will come at the expense of GM's total Market Share.

History...ignore it, and you're bound to repeat it...
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:11 PM   #10181
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Lowdown you are bringing up the classic arguments that have paralized GM leaders. Short term gain vs. long term gain.

So the question is......................what is more important market share or profit? If you believe the answer is hang on to market share no matter what the cost in order to make more profit on the upside then you are correct.

The problem is GM market share in my 26 years only went up 2 times. It dropped the remaining 24 years in that span.

GM has held on to the belief that 51% was just a few good breaks away and the government would be looking to break them up again. I can remember (and I still have the lapel pin with 29) when GM made the "bold" move to hold on the 29% market share. Ooooops.

So you (and the classic arguments) may be right on the money. But the track record suggests otherwise.

All I am saying is a BMW or a Mercedes or even a Toyota are not know by any other name or nomenclature. GM may need to consider the same tact if for no other reason than profitability.

But also keep in mind Toyotas and Lexi don't sell well in Germany.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:28 PM   #10182
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:51 AM   #10183
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:52 AM   #10184
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Unfortunately, GM has a continuously uninterrupted North American history of auto production since the 'Teens (WWII excepted). And that history includes gradually shedding unprofitable Divisions/Brands. Because, after all, General Motors was an amalgamation of independent companies. All contributed in one way or another to the Corporation's successes. Many Brands had a limited shelf life, or none at all.

BMW and Benz were virtually recreated from scratch, post-WWII. As were VW and Auto Union-NSU (Audi). Generally new factories, as required. "Out of the ashes"...maybe they should have been renamed Phoenix I and II and III and IV.

Toyota was a machinery company that branched out. NISSAN had its first vehicle rolled out in 1914 (Dat's the truth!). Honda didn't build its first car till the mid-'60s.

Point? GM has been saddled with numerous outdated factories throughout its entire history, practically. Factories that, in many cases at one time, built Brands we've long forgotten. Shackled with legacy costs the likes of which no other company on earth has/had ever dealt with. Had to endure, indirectly, stories over the dinner table for generations about vehicles and dealerships that were "sub-par" and made their owners furious. Whose offspring, not wanting any further contact with such circumstances, looked elsewhere for vehicular mobility.

Honda relied on their very successful motorcycle Brand name to launch their initially-motorcyle-derived cars. Toyota and Datsun-cum-NISSAN used the West Coast and its significant post-War Japanese population (and very low prices) to help launch their not-ready-for-prime-time products...and very quickly learned that American freeways and interstates required somewhat revised versions of their home products. And made very quick adjustments that paid very handsome dividends...Hilux and Lexus and Scion and Acura have followed.

BMW was saved, late-'50s, by its acquisition of manufacturing rights to the Isetta. It also manufactured under the name of Glas (an acquisition, also selling Goggomobil), M- (created), later acquired tha Rover Group (and booted it all, but retained a few names-only...including MINI). Acquired Rolls. Kept it. Acquired Husqvarna, to supplement its motorcyle Division. Benz, credited with creating the first practical car (thanks Karl), has had a generally consistent history that has included such Brands as Maybach (created - twice), Smart (acquired, the conceptual "rebirth" of the Isetta and Goggomobil), AMG (acquired), and -McLaren (although it remains a "well-connected" independent).

So, in fact, we see Brands added to fill certain niches and marketing directions where once only the "parent" name was used.

Think of all these auto operations as funnels. GM, with its multitudinous Brands, initially and since, has necked down over time, generally. As if the funnel was slowly emptying. The others, as above and including Ford, started from the small end of the spout (Brand-wise), and grew to fill the funnel, relatively...

History...repeating...

But each time you downsize, be it Brands or whatever, the downsizing by its very nature requires "shedding"...and Market Share is inevitably affected in the overall scope of things. And that shedding process eliminates talent...and ideas...in the chase for $ucce$$...or, merely, survival...

It still boggles my mind that a former 50+% Share "requires" something less than 20%, currently, to survive and thrive, domestically...

What's needed is a Board of diverse disciplines, supporting but objectively analyzing a CEO with a clear focused vision, who is capable of seeing that vision completed. With equal parts "true believer" and economic pragmatist and manufacturing process realist. And we need that person now...
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:11 PM   #10185
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It's getting deep in here....







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Old 08-21-2012, 09:27 PM   #10186
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I must say this thread recently has been become quite an informative read....! My main concern was who will control our performance car market and will it stay relevant going forward into the future here at home. Or will someone else overseas within the corporation be relegated to make the final decision and have the final say on our beloved legacy car (Camaro). Changing the business model is needed to stay competitive. However, our high performance excesses or smaller percentage profit margin may not be taken as favorable or worthy by an off shore Corporate Executive who could deem it unnecessary. I watch overseas news and see the picture. GM is going towards GlobalMotors and that's good for GM to stay competitive and survive since it failed to adapt. I hope we don't get left out somewhere along the line and become an after thought about the Camaro that's all, since it was primarily a US company. Not really relevant,... but remember when the Gov tried to end the muscle car hobby in the 80's? Nothing is forever, nor guaranteed. But this car is the love of our lives. Other's not having, knowing, or growing up around a product over the course of their lives will not have the same connection or understanding. I guess I''m resistant to change, and a bit leary. I worry too much...
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:36 PM   #10187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Unfortunately, GM has a continuously uninterrupted North American history of auto production since the 'Teens (WWII excepted). And that history includes gradually shedding unprofitable Divisions/Brands. Because, after all, General Motors was an amalgamation of independent companies. All contributed in one way or another to the Corporation's successes. Many Brands had a limited shelf life, or none at all.

BMW and Benz were virtually recreated from scratch, post-WWII. As were VW and Auto Union-NSU (Audi). Generally new factories, as required. "Out of the ashes"...maybe they should have been renamed Phoenix I and II and III and IV.

Toyota was a machinery company that branched out. NISSAN had its first vehicle rolled out in 1914 (Dat's the truth!). Honda didn't build its first car till the mid-'60s.

Point? GM has been saddled with numerous outdated factories throughout its entire history, practically. Factories that, in many cases at one time, built Brands we've long forgotten. Shackled with legacy costs the likes of which no other company on earth has/had ever dealt with. Had to endure, indirectly, stories over the dinner table for generations about vehicles and dealerships that were "sub-par" and made their owners furious. Whose offspring, not wanting any further contact with such circumstances, looked elsewhere for vehicular mobility.

Honda relied on their very successful motorcycle Brand name to launch their initially-motorcyle-derived cars. Toyota and Datsun-cum-NISSAN used the West Coast and its significant post-War Japanese population (and very low prices) to help launch their not-ready-for-prime-time products...and very quickly learned that American freeways and interstates required somewhat revised versions of their home products. And made very quick adjustments that paid very handsome dividends...Hilux and Lexus and Scion and Acura have followed.

BMW was saved, late-'50s, by its acquisition of manufacturing rights to the Isetta. It also manufactured under the name of Glas (an acquisition, also selling Goggomobil), M- (created), later acquired tha Rover Group (and booted it all, but retained a few names-only...including MINI). Acquired Rolls. Kept it. Acquired Husqvarna, to supplement its motorcyle Division. Benz, credited with creating the first practical car (thanks Karl), has had a generally consistent history that has included such Brands as Maybach (created - twice), Smart (acquired, the conceptual "rebirth" of the Isetta and Goggomobil), AMG (acquired), and -McLaren (although it remains a "well-connected" independent).

So, in fact, we see Brands added to fill certain niches and marketing directions where once only the "parent" name was used.

Think of all these auto operations as funnels. GM, with its multitudinous Brands, initially and since, has necked down over time, generally. As if the funnel was slowly emptying. The others, as above and including Ford, started from the small end of the spout (Brand-wise), and grew to fill the funnel, relatively...

History...repeating...

But each time you downsize, be it Brands or whatever, the downsizing by its very nature requires "shedding"...and Market Share is inevitably affected in the overall scope of things. And that shedding process eliminates talent...and ideas...in the chase for $ucce$$...or, merely, survival...

It still boggles my mind that a former 50+% Share "requires" something less than 20%, currently, to survive and thrive, domestically...

What's needed is a Board of diverse disciplines, supporting but objectively analyzing a CEO with a clear focused vision, who is capable of seeing that vision completed. With equal parts "true believer" and economic pragmatist and manufacturing process realist. And we need that person now...
Yessssir



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their called waders..........or hip boots. Wear them with pride.




Quote:
Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro View Post
I must say this thread recently has been become quite an informative read....! My main concern was who will control our performance car market and will it stay relevant going forward into the future here at home. Or will someone else overseas within the corporation be relegated to make the final decision and have the final say on our beloved legacy car (Camaro). Changing the business model is needed to stay competitive. However, our high performance excesses or smaller percentage profit margin may not be taken as favorable or worthy by an off shore Corporate Executive who could deem it unnecessary. I watch overseas news and see the picture. GM is going towards GlobalMotors and that's good for GM to stay competitive and survive since it failed to adapt. I hope we don't get left out somewhere along the line and become an after thought about the Camaro that's all, since it was primarily a US company. Not really relevant,... but remember when the Gov tried to end the muscle car hobby in the 80's? Nothing is forever, nor guaranteed. But this car is the love of our lives. Other's not having, knowing, or growing up around a product over the course of their lives will not have the same connection or undersatnding. I guess I''m resistant to change, and a bit leary. I worry too much...
The question is will we have room for American muscle in a future of CAFE and Global Green House Gas rules and regs? And I think the writing is on the wall. So maybe it's time to simply reinvent what that means and maybe GM is the company to do just that. But it won't be just global driving that it will be here at home as well.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:58 PM   #10188
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I haven't been duck hunting in a verrrrrry long time.... at least I can use these for something.





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Old 08-21-2012, 10:00 PM   #10189
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Hopefully going forward they will have learned from the past. That is not letting the Camaro linger and linger and linger (remember the 70's and 80's) and then die. As they say if your not moving forward your falling behind. You gotta be fluid...Stay Frosty!
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:11 PM   #10190
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Yessssir
An "interesting read"...time-stamped AFTER what I wrote, here, yesterday...

http://www.autoextremist.com/

After you read "Page 1", click on "Page 2", at the bottom, for (what Paul Harvey used to call) "the rest of the story".
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:43 PM   #10191
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Man, and I thought things were hunky dory at GM, or that guy has a vendetta against Ackerson.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:56 PM   #10192
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He has had it in for every GM head over the years. But sometimes justified.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:48 PM   #10193
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Gotcha
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:55 PM   #10194
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He's a guy, like him or not, who calls a spade a shovel, as he sees it...
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:41 PM   #10195
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Is the ever "evolving" 911 a smart business plan? Would it be a wise move for the Camaro?

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:54 PM   #10196
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Many of us have seen this story before as the Golden Age of Muscle Cars turned into the 174 FWHP Vette. At the time, they told us we would never see cars like that again. They were right. We saw them improve dramatically and exceed our wildest dreams. Technology was the answer then and will be the answer again.

To answer a rhetorical question posed by #3 -- Profit. A charity cannot function unless it turns a profit. It takes money to deliver food or services. A church cannot function if it fails to turn a profit. It takes money to turn on the lights. A company cannot function if it fails to runs a profit. GM must turn HUGE profits to be in a position to design and build the best cars that deliver the greatest level of customer satisfaction then share takes care of itself.
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Old 08-23-2012, 07:58 PM   #10197
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Off topic.....







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Old 08-23-2012, 09:14 PM   #10198
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Well, some retorts by those far wiser than I give me optomism...and a feeling things will be much rosier going forward. I'll side with that camp until then...and be like the ant trying to move the rubber tree plant.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:28 PM   #10199
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There you go!!!!! OldSchoolOptimismCamaro

It's simple. When GM is making BIG money there is more room for things that folks like us that hang around in places like The House are hoping for.

Bigger, faster, stronger!
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:58 AM   #10200
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There you go!!!!! OldSchoolOptimismCamaro

It's simple. When GM is making BIG money there is more room for things that folks like us that hang around in places like The House are hoping for.

Bigger, faster, stronger!
imagine GM building Camaros faster than the L/28 and Bruce Raymond's Camaro?
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