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Old 11-20-2011, 12:22 PM   #6987
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I was just curious, Im not getting hung up on it..... geesh





Im sure we will find out in due time, I have a feeling GM is being conservative with the numbers!

But of course I could be wrong.......
I wasn't poking at you, Shno. I was just poking at the guys who are concerned with the 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times. My guess is that going to the strip on weekends is easier to do than finding a good road course to play on. So being able to beat the GT500 in that activity could be having an influence on this topic. I could be wrong. Plus if you were to really do some racing on a road course, I think there is a higher probability to get your car banged up a little. So I'm not poo pooing the thought of a straight line king, just want everyone to know GM did some great things to make this a super road course car and just a nice car to drive every day. A 580 HP daily driver.

So until we get some back to back comparisons of the cars in question, it's tough to find fault with either car. I'm sure the GT500 is going to be a very special car.....................as will the ZL1. But until we see the level of technology the Ford product will bring to the battle, it's really hard to judge. MR shocks? Launch Control? EPS? and what will they do to actually get 650 HP to work with the rear tires?
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Old 11-20-2011, 02:27 PM   #6988
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... I can say from my observations and participation here Shno's House only seems to attract those that want to have fair and intelligent conversations about Z things as well as drink selection for Friday and Saturday nights.

................................................and awesome onion rings
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Friendly places with good service.. seem to draw long term patronage.

This is also why I am less worried about the Mustang having 650 HP. At some point you need some pretty complex chassis controls (one of GM's strong suits) and as you point out, TIRES. I'll be really curious to see how they control/manage that and get enough traction down.

And we will also want to see torque curves. How do they compare down low.

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I believe GM's TC and Launch Control algoriths are intended to keep maximum tractive effort to the pavement. Spinning wheels gather no velocity.

This is also why I am less worried about the Mustang having 650 HP. At some point you need some pretty complex chassis controls (one of GM's strong suits) and as you point out, TIRES. I'll be really curious to see how they control/manage that and get enough traction down.

And we will also want to see torque curves. How do they compare down low.


You make very salient points, and I see what you did there.

A rolling stone gathers no moss. Your turn of phrase was well returned.

I'm wondering how much difference there would be in the 0-60 & 1/4 mile times if the powers that be offered the Pilot Sport Cup tires as an option and got an outstanding driver to see what he could do with them. Perhaps that would shut up the cacophany. I suspect those that don't plan to track their cars just want the bragging point.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:30 PM   #6989
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Is it true that PTM is only available on the manual?
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:38 PM   #6990
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Is it true that PTM is only available on the manual?
PTM will be on both versions. The launch control feature will only be on the manual.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:59 PM   #6991
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PTM will be on both versions. The launch control feature will only be on the manual.
You have to love a system that interprets engine revs with a depressed clutch as "prepare to launch".
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:59 PM   #6992
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A lot of factors to consider and I don't know the answer to some of them.

First, we've been talking about the HP bump from the CTS-V application. Was there also a significant torque bump?

Are the axle ratios the same?

Not only the wheel weight, but also the rolling diameter? Is the ZL1 trying to spin a larger wheel. Rotational Moment of Inertia or something like that.

Are the trans ratios the same? My guess is they are but I'm not sure.

Also, not just mass, but is the cross sectional area of the Camaro larger and is the Cd higher? At some point in a 0 - 60 aero will hit the bigger in size (I think) Camaro. This would also impact the 1/4 mile times and also the top end in a big way.

Also, if the Camaro has more down force aids (spoilers) to add downforce on the track this will also be like dragging a parachute through the air although a small one.

And in the end, the number GM posts are typically obtained by GM drivers that can be replicated. But I don't know if the V and ZL1 are using the same so you may get a 0 - 60 difference from that alone.

In the end, compare the 'ring times between the two. I think the ZL1 is a bit faster and that shows the total capapbility of the ZL1 relative to the V.

I wouldn't get hung up on 0 - 60 or top speed. I'm not sure that is the cars strong point. I think it is overall straight line and curved line performance.

Me, I'll go back to my point a while ago....................wait and see a comparion of the ZL1 to a Boss. Don't get hung up on what the car will do if you simply push your right foot to the floor. Focus on what happens when you brake, push in the clutch, and oh yeah, turn that round thing you are holding on to.
All great points and insight!

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I agree Joe in that it may have been conservative. Just by looking at the raw numbers between the two cars the ZL1 should have more of an advantage. The ZL1 launch may not have been given as much attention to dialing in the power and traction as was given to cornering and handling at race speed. The ZL1 appears to be more of a road racer than a drag racer, although it can fit both bills. I think the performance numbers may be a tad bit under rated...for whatever reason.

BTW this thread has just gone over 7,000 posts...


Since someone brought it up....I really am not concerned about the GT500....that press release Ford issued is smoke and mirrors, imo...they don't have anything significant to back up that extra 100 hp...and there's already a video on this site of the SS pulling a 12.9 quarter mile side-by-side with the GT500...which pulled a 12.8......

The ZL1 is an intelligent, BALANCED car...fully capable of taking advantage of all its power. The GT500 is not.
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:01 PM   #6993
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You have to love a system that interprets engine revs with a depressed clutch as "prepare to launch".
I like that... Prepare to launch!

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Since someone brought it up....I really am not concerned about the GT500....
If I could afford either of these cars It would not matter to me either. The Camaro is for me, always has been always will be. A Mustake will always be a Mustake and I don't like Mustakes.

Blame it on family rivalry I guess.....
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:04 PM   #6994
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I like that... Prepare to launch!
You know, I'd love to borrow a set of ZR1 wheels and Pilot Sport cups....just to pop them on and have a go!

Though....the good news, at least, is that Michelin seems to make PS2 tires in a very-close-to-the-same size as the ZL1 specifies. If I'm not happy with the F1s after they wear out...there'll be choices.

OOH! Maybe I'll put on performance snows and challenge a GT500 to race in 35°!!!
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:06 PM   #6995
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You know, I'd love to borrow a set of ZR1 wheels and Pilot Sport cups....just to pop them on and have a go!

Though....the good news, at least, is that Michelin seems to make PS2 tires in a very-close-to-the-same size as the ZL1 specifies. If I'm not happy with the F1s after they wear out...there'll be choices.
Beings that the F1's were "designed" for the ZL1 I wonder how much of a difference switching to a different tire would make???
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:07 PM   #6996
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Beings that the F1's were "designed" for the ZL1 I wonder how much of a difference switching to a different tire would make???
No idea. But a lot of people seem to have their panties in a bunch over the team's decision to use such "adequate" tires when there were other options out there...
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:13 PM   #6997
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No idea. But a lot of people seem to have their panties in a bunch over the team's decision to use such "adequate" tires when there were other options out there...
Beings that nobody (besides GM) has been able to run the "new" F1's hard around a track yet, I don't see any reason they should have their panties in a bunch.

I love the panic even though we have no idea what's really coming....
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:16 PM   #6998
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Beings that nobody (besides GM) has been able to run the "new" F1's hard around a track yet, I don't see any reason they should have their panties in a bunch.

I love the panic even though we have no idea what's really coming....
You would think...

I agree. It's funny how out of control we can get sometimes...like a little kid on Christmas eve...
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:19 PM   #6999
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You would think...

I agree. It's funny how out of control we can get sometimes...like a little kid on Christmas eve...


I'm sure it is easier for me just to sit back and relax beings that I don't have a ZL1 on order
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:24 PM   #7000
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I'm sure it is easier for me just to sit back and relax beings that I don't have a ZL1 on order
Then what's everyone else's excuse?!?

A lot of the people going back and forth are those with no investment in either car...THAT (imo) is what allows the conversation to go on, and on, and on, and on...these people can make stuff up, one way or the other.
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