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Old 10-24-2013, 12:51 PM   #13726
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It was just completed. I haven't see it in person. I believe the color is paint and the graphics wrap.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:25 PM   #13727
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The Z/28 is nice. Then there is the Lingenfelter Pedders L/28 dressed up, ready for SEMA and the OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car Invitational (OUSCI).
Lovely car, the matte color is nice!

Price?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:58 PM   #13728
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Lovely car, the matte color is nice!

Price?
Priceless?

A lot. We have to tally up the current configuration of the L/28 but a safe answer is more than the Z/28.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:48 PM   #13729
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It was just completed. I haven't see it in person. I believe the color is paint and the graphics wrap.
That's the the info on what's Under the Hood, but I want to know what Hood it that? who sells that type?
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:15 PM   #13730
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That's the the info on what's Under the Hood, but I want to know what Hood it that? who sells that type?
It is paint. The graphics are vinyl. The hood, grille, side sills, etc are all available from Lingenfelter.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:02 PM   #13731
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The Z/28 is nice. Then there is the Lingenfelter Pedders L/28 dressed up, ready for SEMA and the OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car Invitational (OUSCI).



Everyone should have a Big Brother to look up too
Killer paint and graphics!

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Old 10-24-2013, 09:45 PM   #13732
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Captain America ........I'm in. Trailer for Winter Soldier looks pretty Solid.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:48 PM   #13733
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Captain America ........I'm in. Trailer for Winter Soldier looks pretty Sid.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:14 PM   #13734
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It cant be that close to the Z06 pricing otherwise it makes no sense. Its going to be right in the middle between the $55k ZL1 and the $75k Z06.
$65k base price with options at $70k.
...nothing more than that I feel as well...
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Killer paint and graphics!

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...I agree, bad ass lookin' for sure!
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:51 AM   #13735
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Ok, I could start a controversial thread but I'll do this in the comfortable confines of The House.

Here is the problem that GM has with any NG Camaro.....................the Cadillac ATS Coupe, of which spy photos are now showing up.

Ford has a POS division called Lincoln that has ZERO pretense of performance and nearly ZERO for performance. So Ford will take the Mustang and they WILL go after the BMW 4 Series. I got this vibe when I saw the spy shots of the '15 Mustang interior and there was a switch for heated AND cooled seats. This tells me they are taking the Mustang up market.

There is very little difference in price between a Camaro with some decent equipment and an ATS as it is. Mrs. Number 3's ATS stickered for 40K (paid much less) throw in an SS powertrain or even the 3.6 TT and you are still in the low 50s.

So for everyone that questions the fact that GM limits the performance of the Camaro so as not to infringe on the Corvette, I propose that GM's bigger problem will be making the Camaro as nice as it needs to be to compete with the Mustang and yet not encroach on the ATS coupe and Vsport or Vseries.

Look at what GM still does in the full size segment for chassis tuning:

Hiper strut front suspension and linked H-arm rear suspension. STANDARD on Cadillac, OPTIONAL on Lacrosse and CANNOT have on Impala.

Look at the Malibu. Still judged average for handling compared to the rest of the set. But to avoid competing head to head with Buick they limit the chassis. To heck with the Fusion which is kicking it's butt.

So the NG Camaro will be limited not by the Corvette, but maybe more so by the ATS Coupe.

I will be very surprised if the Camaro is allowed to be that good and steal sales from the Cadillac. I cannot see a Cadillac that is just a Chevy with a few more creature comforts.

But................................I hope I'm wrong. But the Mustang is clearly going up and after the BMW 4. GM's car for that task is the ATS Coupe NOT the Camaro.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:16 AM   #13736
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Interesting point #3...let me think about this for a while...tha ATS is smaller in size than the camaro which is more like the same as the CTS, right?
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:26 AM   #13737
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Interesting point #3...let me think about this for a while...tha ATS is smaller in size than the camaro which is more like the same as the CTS, right?
Camaro is Zeta based which is the Commodore which is much bigger than the Alpha based ATS or CTS. Biggest difference a customer would notice in an ATS and CTS is wheelbase for more rear seat room. A CTS is only an inch wider than an ATS, 72.2 vs 71.1 inches. But the WB is over 5 inches longer.

So that takes us back to an ATS/Alpha based Camaro. Will the Camaro be a bigger car than the ATS coupe.....................and hence a bigger car than the Mustang again? Can't wait for that discussion if it happens. "Why is the Camaro STILL 300 pounds heavier than a Mustang".
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:28 AM   #13738
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I think this was an ATS from the plant tour we took on Thursday. Building them along side the Volt, Malibu & Impala. Could be a CTS. (I get them all mixed up now)

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Old 10-26-2013, 10:31 AM   #13739
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I think this was an ATS from the plant tour we took on Thursday. Building them along side the Volt, Malibu & Impala. Could be a CTS. (I get them all mixed up now)

Attachment 568931
That is the new ELR I believe. The Cadillac with the Volt(ron) powertrain. Also built by the folks at Hamtramck.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:36 AM   #13740
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I may be the only one but I have little interest in the "refinement" of a muscle car. The more you spend building a cockpit with switches for heated and cooled seats...the less money you have for performance when trying to slot the car into a price range for your target customer. Let those who want the frills get the caddy, let those who want the 2 seat sports car get the vette, and for those who want the muscle car....the Camaro. If I spill a coke in my Camaro I don't want to have to go to therapy to get over it like I would in an upscale caddy or vette. Make sure it is comfortable, has a decent radio, and put every dime of engineering beyond that into the performance. That is what I want in a muscle car, that is what I want in the NG Camaro.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:49 AM   #13741
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I may be the only one but I have little interest in the "refinement" of a muscle car. The more you spend building a cockpit with switches for heated and cooled seats...the less money you have for performance when trying to slot the car into a price range for your target customer. Let those who want the frills get the caddy, let those who want the 2 seat sports car get the vette, and for those who want the muscle car....the Camaro. If I spill a coke in my Camaro I don't want to have to go to therapy to get over it like I would in an upscale caddy or vette. Make sure it is comfortable, has a decent radio, and put every dime of engineering beyond that into the performance. That is what I want in a muscle car, that is what I want in the NG Camaro.
But here is where the battle lies. If I can buy a Mustang for the same money as a Camaro that rivals the 4 or M4 and the Camaro is lagging (again) in refinement then Camaro sales will tumble. If the sales tumble then the amount of money GM can pile back in is limited and we could be in the death spiral of 2000 again.

For a lot of people it still boils down to how much can I get for my money.

Also a story, Mrs. Number 3 was Marketing Manager on the C5 Corvette. Early clinics were "CUP HOLDERS!!!!!!! NO ONE drinks in my Corvette. Why would I even want one cup holder". But when the car launched one of the biggest complaints was "the cup holders in this car SUCK". LOL.

For the Camaro to succeed, I've always suggested it needs to be the best coupe you can buy...............PERIOD. It should be so good that Honda and Nissan have to quit selling Accord and Altima coupes. And yet it should blow a Mustang into the weeds with ease.

I just look at the Impala. Look how good that car is....................but how good could that car be if it had the Hiper strut front suspension, linked H-arm rear suspension ANNNNNNNND the 3.6L TT engine. It would go from very good to GREAT.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:59 AM   #13742
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But here is where the battle lies. If I can buy a Mustang for the same money as a Camaro that rivals the 4 or M4 and the Camaro is lagging (again) in refinement then Camaro sales will tumble. If the sales tumble then the amount of money GM can pile back in is limited and we could be in the death spiral of 2000 again.

For a lot of people it still boils down to how much can I get for my money.

Also a story, Mrs. Number 3 was Marketing Manager on the C5 Corvette. Early clinics were "CUP HOLDERS!!!!!!! NO ONE drinks in my Corvette. Why would I even want one cup holder". But when the car launched one of the biggest complaints was "the cup holders in this car SUCK". LOL.

For the Camaro to succeed, I've always suggested it needs to be the best coupe you can buy...............PERIOD. It should be so good that Honda and Nissan have to quit selling Accord and Altima coupes. And yet it should blow a Mustang into the weeds with ease.

I just look at the Impala. Look how good that car is....................but how good could that car be if it had the Hiper strut front suspension, linked H-arm rear suspension ANNNNNNNND the 3.6L TT engine. It would go from very good to GREAT.
That all sounds fine, but may not happen if GM has all this "in-fighting" about the "levels" of it's own models...Camaro can't be faster than Vette, Cadillac must be more luxurious than the rest, keeping many of their own models "down" to make others look better, etc., etc.

Outdoing Honda, Nissan, BMW, Ford, and all won't happen if they are so concerned about not stepping on each others own toes.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:13 AM   #13743
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But here is where the battle lies. If I can buy a Mustang for the same money as a Camaro that rivals the 4 or M4 and the Camaro is lagging (again) in refinement then Camaro sales will tumble. If the sales tumble then the amount of money GM can pile back in is limited and we could be in the death spiral of 2000 again.

For a lot of people it still boils down to how much can I get for my money.

Also a story, Mrs. Number 3 was Marketing Manager on the C5 Corvette. Early clinics were "CUP HOLDERS!!!!!!! NO ONE drinks in my Corvette. Why would I even want one cup holder". But when the car launched one of the biggest complaints was "the cup holders in this car SUCK". LOL.

For the Camaro to succeed, I've always suggested it needs to be the best coupe you can buy...............PERIOD. It should be so good that Honda and Nissan have to quit selling Accord and Altima coupes. And yet it should blow a Mustang into the weeds with ease.

I just look at the Impala. Look how good that car is....................but how good could that car be if it had the Hiper strut front suspension, linked H-arm rear suspension ANNNNNNNND the 3.6L TT engine. It would go from very good to GREAT.
I understand where you are coming from and you probably are in the majority BUT if I wanted refinement and performance I would by an M6. It could be just me but I have no problem see Camaro having a path forward that does not encroach on the Caddy or the Vette. HP, Handling, and Attitude....with a back seat. Caddy will never have an attitude...it is too refined for that. Vetter will never have a back seat. To me, the Camaro is where the to Caddy/Vette meet with a little less of each but overall great in its own right.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:14 PM   #13744
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I understand where you are coming from and you probably are in the majority BUT if I wanted refinement and performance I would by an M6. It could be just me but I have no problem see Camaro having a path forward that does not encroach on the Caddy or the Vette. HP, Handling, and Attitude....with a back seat. Caddy will never have an attitude...it is too refined for that. Vetter will never have a back seat. To me, the Camaro is where the to Caddy/Vette meet with a little less of each but overall great in its own right.
Sounds like you want a Z/28!!!
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:58 PM   #13745
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Sounds like you want a Z/28!!!
If he can consider a 100K plus M6 he can most certainly get the Z/28.

I think the notion of some base level, little refinement "muscle car" is about to go away.

Just my opinion, but the new definition will likely include cars like the M4, the RS5 etc. It will be about simply having V8 power.

You will have to see a huge jump in refinement on the next Camaro simply to compete with the Mustang let alone all the other coupes in the market. And that jump in refinement will push the Camaro up in price and closer to BMWs and Audis.

Go back in time a bit and look at another great car brand in history, Oldsmobile. In the late 70's, the Cutlass sold over 400,000 units for several years. In the end, there was the Aurora (a wonderful car) and the Intrigue. Both were expensive and so much so that they flirted with entry level BMWs and MBs products. What would you rather have in your driveway? An Olds or a BMW? Once you get $ for $ equivalency, then you aren't competing with Mustangs, you are competing with BMW and that is an entirely different comparison.

It's why GM still has one too many brands. But Buick will not be eliminated for many good reasons. But Chevrolet does not have the ability to make as good a car as it could. There are limitations.

Now another historical point of reference, in GM's heyday when they were so big the government threatened to break them up, the only real competition GM had was it's own self. How many different V8 engines did GM have? At one point there were multiple big block and small block V8s in various GM divisions. Remember the lawsuit over the "Chevymobile" when GM was putting engines from one brand into another?
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:29 PM   #13746
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I think the notion of some base level, little refinement "muscle car" is about to go away.

I don't like it but I agree......
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:31 PM   #13747
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That is the new ELR I believe. The Cadillac with the Volt(ron) powertrain. Also built by the folks at Hamtramck.
Yes, you are correct.

I knew it was a new letter combo that I didn't recognize..
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:05 PM   #13748
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Bill in Michigan to require front plates???? WTF??
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:25 PM   #13749
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Bill in Michigan to require front plates???? WTF??
That sucks. Who's pushing for that?
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:47 PM   #13750
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That sucks. Who's pushing for that?
Some state legislator that thinks it helps as a reflective device on a car with headlamps off that will help law enforcement.
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