Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Hurst Shifters
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons

Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-22-2009, 12:55 AM   #26
The_Blur
Jayhawk USN
 
The_Blur's Avatar
 
Drives: 6.2L of AWESOME! 2011 L99 2SS
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NAS Whiting Field
Posts: 14,306
Send a message via AIM to The_Blur
The cost difference between a V6 and a V8 is a one-time charge, so your logic is somewhat sound, but you're forgetting the lifelong costs of insurance, fuel, and maintenance that makes the V8 much more costly for someone whose performance goals may not be as ambitious. If someone only wants 500 hp, the V6 can reach that high with less expensive insurance, cheaper fuel, and less oil. The V8 would cost much more over time to hit the same number simply because insurance is higher and the recommended fuel is premium, but let's not ignore how much more oil it takes to keep the engine properly lubricated. A V6 is simply less money in the long run.

On the other hand, more can be done with the V8 as far as higher gains. Each modification gets better performance when placed in a high-displacement engine compared to a low-displacement engine. In this category, the V8 is a clear win. An exhaust, for instance, is more likely to produce better gains in a V8 than a V6 when all else is equal. Finally, let's also remember that the V8 can be pushed harder and longer than the V6.

There's a lot of good sense when it comes to getting the V6. Let's not knock a good decision.
The_Blur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 01:44 AM   #27
DTM
DTMphotography
 
DTM's Avatar
 
Drives: 10' Camaro SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 586
I think 75% of the reason people do exhaust, is for the sound, as for an intake system, that's quite a bit of power that can be felt easily and will make your car run muuuch better!
__________________
2010 2SS/RS: 12.77 @ 111mph (muffler delete) - SOLD
DTM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 02:39 AM   #28
dragonZ28


 
Drives: 2001 T/A, 2010 2SS/RS, 2006 Z06
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,006
You're coming at this form the wrong angle. Proven mods do work, and they work as a team. Intake and headers together will outperform the numbers from both individually added together.

Bolt-ons do work and are proven to increase HP and TQ while reducing E.T.s.

I can tell you that most bolt-on and cam LS1 cars will beat a supercharged LS1 car. FI is a nice way to get power without having severe driveability hinderances. Not everyone wants to drive a cam-loping, monster that sounds like it's brewing a thunderstorm, but I do.

Also, if you are simply looking at peak numbers, you are missing the point. What you really want is nice gains under the curve. You want newfound power in the entire RPM band. Peak numbers don't tell nearly part of the story.
__________________

Last edited by dragonZ28; 10-22-2009 at 03:07 AM.
dragonZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 02:51 AM   #29
iBK3000
 
Drives: '04 Range Rover, Camaro 2SS 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 213
In the end V8 users pay much more. The only real difference is the vibration that comes from a superior motor. And it only matters to those who know.

Great thread.
__________________
CGM 2SS/RS 6SM . No muff.
iBK3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 03:13 AM   #30
chappy48

 
chappy48's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro Auto 2SS/RS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Belfair, WA
Posts: 876
Because mods's add power By your logic, why mod any car?? It's only a few extra hp
chappy48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 03:44 AM   #31
ZNOLMT
 
ZNOLMT's Avatar
 
Drives: Rally Yellow 2LT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 469
Well, I guess unless you're doing forced induction, modding isn't really all about power.

It is nice to add a little extra kick to your car, but mostly just to personalize it.
ZNOLMT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 06:27 AM   #32
robertway

 
robertway's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Challenger SRT8 Auto
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 842
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertway
After trying to fully absorb the CAI results thread (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48202) my understanding is that the CAI by itself doesn't do all that much dollars per hp but instead opens the door to fully utilizing other mods down the line (long tubes, hi-flow exhaust, even forced induction). The stock intake will eventually become a restrictor plate once other things are added to the engine's "respiratory system". Now I could be totally off base with this but the CAI seems to be the first logical step in fully exploiting what the engine will eventually be capable of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelso View Post
well written
Thanks Kelso, even us noobs can stumble upon some logic once in a while
__________________

"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." - Benjamin Franklin




LS3 Camshaft Swap Do-It-Yourself Instructions - 2010 LS3 gone but not forgotten!!!
robertway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:22 AM   #33
1camaro70
 
1camaro70's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS RS L99
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: BUTLER, PA
Posts: 531
L99 tune 22 HP, 42 Ft.Lb. torque for $200 to $300, is great buy, some have shown tune plus headers adds only 4 HP, will be watching for Vararam results or any other CAI, but will they add over tune, CAI for $400 10HP, 10 torque, tune wins.
1camaro70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 12:06 PM   #34
My First Camaro!
 
My First Camaro!'s Avatar
 
Drives: 03Dakota4.7 1SSLS3RS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: MO
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1320junkie View Post
you can spend a few thousand on suspension and the car handles totally different...and the pest performance mod in my mind is a driving school...but anyway..I dont believe in NOS, turbo's or superchargers...but I do believe in more cubes head work cams etc...im a n/a guy to my core
+1!
My First Camaro! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 01:46 PM   #35
drtwo
 
drtwo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS RS Yellow, Raptor, Vrod
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1camaro70 View Post
L99 tune 22 HP, 42 Ft.Lb. torque for $200 to $300, is great buy, some have shown tune plus headers adds only 4 HP, will be watching for Vararam results or any other CAI, but will they add over tune, CAI for $400 10HP, 10 torque, tune wins.
Absolutely, but to continue to play devil's advocate:

1)If an added 120 HP from an engine upgrade (V6 to V8) gains only tenths of a second, 20HP gain will do almost nothing. (IE. DON'T BUY THESE THINGS FOR ADDED POWER, because it's trivial)

2)From what I'm really hearing is that unless you plan to add a major modification (which >98% WILL NOT) minor upgrades like CAI and headers are cosmetic mods only.

3) The weigh difference Change in the V6 vs V8 camaro is only 2.8% but the power difference is 28%. If the power to wt ratio idea held up, we should see a BIG performance difference because the weight change is trivial but power increase is huge!
__________________
2SS RS Rally Yellow, LS3, M6, sunroof, extra on the fast!
drtwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 01:49 PM   #36
BackinBlackSS/RS
Go Blue!!!!!
 
BackinBlackSS/RS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Cruze LT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 23,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
I'd say buy your aftermarket stuff to personalize your car and enjoy it! Take Power gains with a grain of salt. Buy the CAI that looks cool to you and the exhaust that sounds good to you and don't worry about the numbers!!!
AMEN!!!!!!
BackinBlackSS/RS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 02:06 PM   #37
trudawg660

 
Drives: 2006 Dodge Charger / 2SS IOM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Because it's more than just hp. Vehicle weight and unsprung weight have a huge impact on performance. The SS weighs 3860 lbs, the V6 weighs 3750 lbs. The SS also has big heavy wheels; it takes horsepower to get that weight moving. The V6 has smaller lighter wheels which make it easier to get up to speed. Gearing also plays a part in acceleration.

Power to weight ratio (PWR) is what you really want to look at as opposed to just the horsepower. If you start reducing unsprung weight on the V6 that car is going to start getting fast; it already has a decent amount of power actually.
People with the RS package (which is most people) have the same tires. reguardless for having a v8 or v6
trudawg660 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 02:23 PM   #38
Chocolate Apocalypse
Full Fledged Member
 
Chocolate Apocalypse's Avatar
 
Drives: '00-Z28
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
Absolutely, but to continue to play devil's advocate:

1)If an added 120 HP from an engine upgrade (V6 to V8) gains only tenths of a second, 20HP gain will do almost nothing. (IE. DON'T BUY THESE THINGS FOR ADDED POWER, because it's trivial)
I'm confused, the quickest stock SS is in the 12s and so far it seems V6s are in the low to mid 14s. That's a lot of tenths.
__________________
'98 Dodge Avenger - Beater
'72 Cutlass - Toy
'00 Z28 - REDRUM - 12.312@111.62 DA:2500' blowing through TC, new TC installed, 11s here I come
Chocolate Apocalypse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 02:26 PM   #39
BackinBlackSS/RS
Go Blue!!!!!
 
BackinBlackSS/RS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Cruze LT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 23,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Apocalypse View Post
I'm confused, the quickest stock SS is in the 12s and so far it seems V6s are in the low to mid 14s. That's a lot of tenths.
Yeah, the difference between the V6 and V8 is significant.
BackinBlackSS/RS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 02:27 PM   #40
iBK3000
 
Drives: '04 Range Rover, Camaro 2SS 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 213
^lol +1
__________________
CGM 2SS/RS 6SM . No muff.
iBK3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 02:38 PM   #41
billw501
 
Drives: 2010 IBM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Evans, GA
Posts: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolman View Post
I'm with you. I love the z06. I hoping to get one in early spring.
I miss my Z06 . But, gotta send the kids to school.
billw501 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 04:18 PM   #42
speedster
SST...
 
speedster's Avatar
 
Drives: SST Camaro 2010
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: East Coast of Florida
Posts: 6,057
You stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
...The Horsepower between the cars above varies more than 120HP and yet the performace of each of these cars varies only by tenths of seconds in a quarter mile and maybe less in a 0-60 run. (WITH OVER A HUNDRED HORSEPOWER IN DIFFERENCE)!!!
drtwo -

This is a great thread you started, but the base premise is somewhat misleading. The data below is an "average" from multiple magazine articles, i.e. Car and Driver, Edmunds, etc.

For example when Car and Driver tested both models here were the numbers:

V-6 0-60 5.9 seconds
1/4 14.5 seconds at 99 mph

V-8 0-60 4.6-4.8 seconds (Auto and Manual Combined
1/4 13.0/13.1 at 111/109 mph (again Auto and Manual Combined)

The variance in the 1/4 mile is not tenths, it is 1.4/1.5 seconds and 10 mph and again in the 0-60 times it is a full second+. That is the 120 hp difference.

Now using software such as Desktop Drag, DragSim here is the difference that some simple bolt ons/good power tune could be worth: (This would be similar to 1Camaro70's post #34 above for $200-$300)

2010 Camaro SS L99 Auto

Stock:
400 hp, 410 lb-ft, 3900 lbs 0-60 5.2, 1/4 mile 13.21 @ 109.6 mph

With Tune and/or simple /CAI-Exhaust Mods:
425 hp, 441 lb-ft, 3900 lbs 0-60 4.9, 1/4 mile 12.91 @ 112.6 mph

These seem to line up pretty well with the "average" times being posted on the site. Overall increase: HP +25, TQ +31; 1/4 mile 3 tenths and 3 mph.

No argument, just some numbers for everyone to think about. There is an appreciable difference in performance with simple bolt-ons. In the end, it's what each enthusiast wants to do to make it "their" Camaro.

P.S. drtwo, I am envious. You have both a Camaro AND a VRod !!
__________________
speedster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 04:54 PM   #43
themossman
Apprehensive Optimist
 
themossman's Avatar
 
Drives: '10 SS/RS SIM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: JAX
Posts: 1,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by drtwo View Post


Any comments?!
Yeah...bring your car over and I'll show you the difference mods can make...but you'll have to catch me first.
__________________
Car is for sale --->http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158486
Current Summary:
Engine:Phase One-(All work by Vengeance Racing): Custom Cam, AR Headers, ported throttle body, ported intake, custom tune, dual valve springs, hardened push rods, under drive pulley, thermostat, Vararam CAI, C5R timing chain, Melling oil pump catch can, breather, MagnaFlow Sport Axle Back
Suspension: Pfadt Sport Sway Bars, Pfadt drop springs
Other: MGW Shifter, Custom Paint
my build journal ---->http://camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30057
themossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 05:24 PM   #44
bdg
 
bdg's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 camaro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tx.
Posts: 93
If you have ever drag raced you will know a few tenths is a big difference, and a second is huge. If you have not then I understand why you think the tenth here and there is no difference.
__________________
[IMG]http://i253
bdg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 05:26 PM   #45
coolman
Guest
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 4,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdg View Post
If you have ever drag raced you will know a few tenths is a big difference, and a second is huge. If you have not then I understand why you think the tenth here and there is no difference.
That really sums it up.
coolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 05:27 PM   #46
MarylandSpeed



 
MarylandSpeed's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 ZL1 & 2010 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,682
If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Why do you paint your house..or add more ram to you computer? Why buy a camaro..plenty of cars are cheaper and will get the job done?
__________________
www.marylandspeed.com * 443-730-9428 * Great Prices and Experienced Service!

MarylandSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:38 PM   #47
drtwo
 
drtwo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS RS Yellow, Raptor, Vrod
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed View Post
If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Why do you paint your house..or add more ram to you computer? Why buy a camaro..plenty of cars are cheaper and will get the job done?
thanks MarylandSpeed, but a little insulting.... I DO get it, but YOU, as a vendor, may be a bit biased. I've written several times that personalization is absolutely cool! But I'm hoping that vendors(no I'm not saying you) not pass off mods as big performance gainers because as we see...they are NOT. These small HP increases do not equal correlative performance gains. It seems exponential HP gains are needed to get any significant performance change.

95% of us will not add a turbo or NOS or supercharger or change the cam or other semi-major mods. So we will NOT gain much of anything in the way of performance by simply adding a $400 CAI or $1200 cat-back exhaust. (if you plan to go on and add major engine changes in the future, then disregard this thread)

So I DO get it, but maybe am trying to help the AVERAGE (95% of us) Camaro owner who is duped by quick fix items to 'go faster'! The AVERAGE owner is not going to be racing his car weekly, so tenths of seconds ARE worthless. Especially when it costs thousands to get it.

Mods won't really make you go faster, but they sure can look or sound cool. So if we simply agree that it's good to personalize a car, but don't get misled into thinking that (m)any of these simple mods will make your Camaro a race car...
__________________
2SS RS Rally Yellow, LS3, M6, sunroof, extra on the fast!
drtwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:50 PM   #48
coolman
Guest
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 4,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
thanks MarylandSpeed, but a little insulting.... I DO get it, but YOU, as a vendor, may be a bit biased. I've written several times that personalization is absolutely cool! But I'm hoping that vendors(no I'm not saying you) not pass off mods as big performance gainers because as we see...they are NOT. These small HP increases do not equal correlative performance gains. It seems exponential HP gains are needed to get any significant performance change.

95% of us will not add a turbo or NOS or supercharger or change the cam or other semi-major mods. So we will NOT gain much of anything in the way of performance by simply adding a $400 CAI or $1200 cat-back exhaust. (if you plan to go on and add major engine changes in the future, then disregard this thread)

So I DO get it, but maybe am trying to help the AVERAGE (95% of us) Camaro owner who is duped by quick fix items to 'go faster'! The AVERAGE owner is not going to be racing his car weekly, so tenths of seconds ARE worthless. Especially when it costs thousands to get it.

Mods won't really make you go faster, but they sure can look or sound cool. So if we simply agree that it's good to personalize a car, but don't get misled into thinking that (m)any of these mods will make your Camaro a race car...
What your saying is your find with a stock car and that's okay. But, to a lot of people gaining 8, 10, 20 hp is a big deal. It's more than you stocker and you will see an improvement. For someone like you I would say it's not a big deal ,but don't try to rain on our picnic just because you don't care about performance. I've won and lost a lot of races by just a couple of tens. No mod is really ment for the street no matter how small. You can only drive 65 in most states.
coolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:32 PM   #49
themossman
Apprehensive Optimist
 
themossman's Avatar
 
Drives: '10 SS/RS SIM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: JAX
Posts: 1,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
thanks MarylandSpeed, but a little insulting.... I DO get it, but YOU, as a vendor, may be a bit biased. I've written several times that personalization is absolutely cool! But I'm hoping that vendors(no I'm not saying you) not pass off mods as big performance gainers because as we see...they are NOT. These small HP increases do not equal correlative performance gains. It seems exponential HP gains are needed to get any significant performance change.

95% of us will not add a turbo or NOS or supercharger or change the cam or other semi-major mods. So we will NOT gain much of anything in the way of performance by simply adding a $400 CAI or $1200 cat-back exhaust. (if you plan to go on and add major engine changes in the future, then disregard this thread)

So I DO get it, but maybe am trying to help the AVERAGE (95% of us) Camaro owner who is duped by quick fix items to 'go faster'! The AVERAGE owner is not going to be racing his car weekly, so tenths of seconds ARE worthless. Especially when it costs thousands to get it.

Mods won't really make you go faster, but they sure can look or sound cool. So if we simply agree that it's good to personalize a car, but don't get misled into thinking that (m)any of these simple mods will make your Camaro a race car...
Seriously...I doubt ANYONE ever thought that a cat back and CAI intake would make their car a 'race car'.

Your use of the word exponential is wrong in this case, I think. I'm up approximately 100rwhp from stock...and there's major differences in the performance of my car.

Additionally...a couple of thousand in suspension parts and pieces will CERTAINLY alter the performance characteristics of the camaro. A set of $500 sway bars even provides a noticeable difference.
__________________
Car is for sale --->http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158486
Current Summary:
Engine:Phase One-(All work by Vengeance Racing): Custom Cam, AR Headers, ported throttle body, ported intake, custom tune, dual valve springs, hardened push rods, under drive pulley, thermostat, Vararam CAI, C5R timing chain, Melling oil pump catch can, breather, MagnaFlow Sport Axle Back
Suspension: Pfadt Sport Sway Bars, Pfadt drop springs
Other: MGW Shifter, Custom Paint
my build journal ---->http://camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30057
themossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:33 PM   #50
SicSix6
The Demon Photographer
 
SicSix6's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS IOM Camaro
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bristow, VA
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
Now that I have your attention:

A V6 2010 Camaro has around 304HP
An SS 2010 Camaro has 426HP
A 2009 Pontiac G8 v8 has 361HP

WHY do we spend big $$ on a small 8-10HP gain from a catback exahust, cold air intake etc.. that will increase our overall HP FARRRRR less than the simple difference in HP gain from a V6 to a V8?

The Horsepower between the cars above varies more than 120HP and yet the performace of each of these cars varies only by tenths of seconds in a quarter mile and maybe less in a 0-60 run. (WITH OVER A HUNDRED HORSEPOWER IN DIFFERENCE)!!!

These modifications look good and sound good, but there seems to be no actualized difference in the cold air intake performance in real life. Although I VERY much appreciate the science and time to test the products!!! Great JOb!

I'd say buy your aftermarket stuff to personalize your car and enjoy it! Take Power gains with a grain of salt. Buy the CAI that looks cool to you and the exhaust that sounds good to you and don't worry about the numbers!!!

If you want real performace gains: you'll have to get a turbo or supercharger or some other extreme engine modification.

Any comments?!
Yes........ Wake up.....
__________________

1SS IOM LS3, GM 4-pack guages, SLP SS Front Emblem, Roto-Fab CAI, Solo Performance Mach X Exhaust, Barton Industries Short Throw Shifter
SicSix6 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Camaro is going to Hennessy Performance for CAI and Peak Performance Tune? mslone Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission 1 10-09-2009 10:57 PM
LSX Performance specialist Next Level Performance USA - Southeast 1 08-03-2009 04:33 PM
I wonder it this will make it on Camaro: GM reconfigurable performance display radz28 Audio, Video, Bluetooth, Navigation, Radar, Electronics Forum 15 10-27-2008 02:52 PM
Performance question - gains from pulleys? 96CAMaro Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 7 04-11-2008 08:22 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.