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Old 10-22-2009, 08:53 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by coolman View Post
What your saying is your find with a stock car and that's okay. But, to a lot of people gaining 8, 10, 20 hp is a big deal. It's more than you stocker and you will see an improvement. For someone like you I would say it's not a big deal ,but don't try to rain on our picnic just because you don't care about performance. I've won and lost a lot of races by just a couple of tens. No mod is really ment for the street no matter how small. You can only drive 65 in most states.
I'm not sure how I am raining on your parade. I've said that MOST of us don't race our cars (formally), but if you do, then mod away for your tenths of a second!!! SPEND, SPEND AWAY!!!

Not sure why you 'racers' are getting all bent out of shape? I'm not insulting you, or calling you stupid or having you justify your spending. To you, small performance gain may be worth it! To me, (and to be honest, most of us) these are essentially cosmetic gains only. SOOOOOOOO.....

So don't pick a CAI based on the HP gain or exhaust based on Power increase because it doesn't really matter. Maybe I'm sort of standing up for all of the runner up's of the CAI dyno challenge or the exhaust system that didn't perform quite as well, but sounds better. Get what is cool, not what has the extra 2 HP on the dyno... cause 2 HP aint SH!%

If you feel the need to insult me as if I 'don't get it' or that I need to 'check my stuff' or whatever, you feel free. But I think that I do get it.

BTW I know who I am NOT buying my mods from...
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:05 PM   #53
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I like this thread. Very interesting. About 20 years ago I noticed a message on the back of a early Pro Street (remember those) Vega sitting in the staging lanes. The message said "Low Performance Vehicles Are For Low Performance Minds". Enough said.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:10 PM   #54
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I like this thread. Very interesting. About 20 years ago I noticed a message on the back of a early Pro Street (remember those) Vega sitting in the staging lanes. The message said "Low Performance Vehicles Are For Low Performance Minds". Enough said.
Seriously...
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:12 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
...These small HP increases do not equal correlative performance gains. It seems exponential HP gains are needed to get any significant performance change.

...Mods won't really make you go faster, but they sure can look or sound cool. So if we simply agree that it's good to personalize a car, but don't get misled into thinking that (m)any of these simple mods will make your Camaro a race car...

[Note: I am not a vendor of any kind, just an enthusiast like you and the others that make up this Camaro5 community.]

Your opinion and position are very respected - and I really mean that.

I completely agree with you that forced induction can reap huge gains but at a significant cost and that most here will not do it.

I do agree to disagree based on the phrases "Mods won't really make you go faster" or "small HP increases do not equal correlative performance gains".

Simple mods WILL make your car proportionally faster and many are very affordable. Reference data in post #43 above. As far as relative cost here are a few ways to look at it:

Base of what people paid per HP for their Camaro:
New LT V-6 304 HP, MSRP $22,995 => $75/hp
New SS V-8 Manual 426HP, MSRP $30,995 => $72.75/hp
New SS V-8 Auto 400HP, MSRP $31,990 => $80/hp

Cost of GMPP Horsepower:
New L99/LS3 Engine 430HP, MSRP $7,441 (JEGS) => $17.30/hp
Performance tune as in post #34 above 22HP, $300 => $13.63/hp
Cold Air Intake (refer to independent testing thread - http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48202 pretty informative) - 16 RWHP => 20 FWHP, $469 => $23.45/hp

It looks like there exists some simple performance bolt-ons that are proportional in cost to GMPP horsepower or a great "bang for the buck".

The one thing that is true regardless of the reasons why - and that there are a lot of new products being developed for the Camaro platform which in the long run is good for us, the enthusiasts. More choices at better prices. Gotta love free market...
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:16 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
BTW I know who I am NOT buying my mods from...
Hey -

Just saw this post of yours. Hope you didn't get burnt on parts by anyone on this site. That would suck regardless... :(
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:22 PM   #57
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I think all the OP is trying to say is that if all your gonna do with your car is CAI and exhaust then don't sweat the minimal hp differences in these products. Get the products you want or like. If you go beyond exhaust and CAI then you will start feeling the power difference. On my 06 GTO I had exhaust and CAI. Sounded MUCH better, but if I didn't know they were on the car you would not be able to tell just by driving it that it was not stock. It felt exactly the same, but man did it sound 10 times better. This is a great thread and really shows the diverse type of gearheads we have up here.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:53 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
I'm not sure how I am raining on your parade. I've said that MOST of us don't race our cars (formally), but if you do, then mod away for your tenths of a second!!! SPEND, SPEND AWAY!!!

Not sure why you 'racers' are getting all bent out of shape? I'm not insulting you, or calling you stupid or having you justify your spending. To you, small performance gain may be worth it! To me, (and to be honest, most of us) these are essentially cosmetic gains only. SOOOOOOOO.....

So don't pick a CAI based on the HP gain or exhaust based on Power increase because it doesn't really matter. Maybe I'm sort of standing up for all of the runner up's of the CAI dyno challenge or the exhaust system that didn't perform quite as well, but sounds better. Get what is cool, not what has the extra 2 HP on the dyno... cause 2 HP aint SH!%

If you feel the need to insult me as if I 'don't get it' or that I need to 'check my stuff' or whatever, you feel free. But I think that I do get it.

BTW I know who I am NOT buying my mods from...
I don't know where in my post that I insulted you ,but If I did I sorry. But you posted something that not everybody is going to agree with. You have to understand the true motorhead's mind to get why we would pay $400 to gain 5hp. I've bought cars already because they've had a few more hp than other cars in their glass not caring about anything else the other car had to offer. When I buy a car I always get the model with the biggest hp motor. That's my main reason for an m6 over and a6 in the ss. This is what the poster ment buy you don't get it. It wasn't to insult your mine. Think of it this way. their are people how there that think it is a waist of money to go pay 36grand for something with 426hp just to say you caught 426hp when you can't legally use it on the road ,but you did . Is that really cost effective. I think your a little bit of a motorhead but not full blown. But, that's okay.
Cool car by the way that the sameone I'm getting.

Last edited by coolman; 10-22-2009 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:05 PM   #59
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I don't know where in my post that I insulted you ,but If I did I sorry. But you posted something that not everybody is going to agree with. You have to understand the true motorhead's mind to get why we would pay $400 to gain 5hp. I've bought cars already because they've had a few more hp than other cars in their glass not caring about anything else the other car had to offer. When I buy a car I always get the model with the biggest hp motor. That's my main reason for an m6 over and a6 in the ss. This is what the poster ment buy you don't get it. I wasn't to insult your mine. Think of it this way. their are people how there that think it is a waist of money to go pay 36grand for something with 426hp just to say you caught 426hp when you can't legally use it on the road ,but you did . Is that really cost effective. I think your a little bit of a motorhead but not full blown. But, that's okay.
Cool car by the way that the sameone I'm getting.

Interesting viewpoint that the motorhead would pay $400 to gain 5 hp.

Does anyone know why the 2006 Z06 Corvette with the LS7 was developed specifically to generate at least 505 HP (not just 500) at a cost of millions of dollars extra by GM? Because at the time it was rated 5 hp higher than the 2006 Vipers' 500hp. Next iteration of the Viper? You guessed it. Again, at a cost of millions of dollars, this time by Dodge, the 2007 Viper was rated at 510 hp. 5hp more than the LS7. For the big boys, it made a huge difference. In the long run, the sports car enthusiast won out. Cool.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:13 PM   #60
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Interesting viewpoint that the motorhead would pay $400 to gain 5 hp.

Does anyone know why the 2006 Z06 Corvette with the LS7 was developed specifically to generate at least 505 HP (not just 500) at a cost of millions of dollars extra by GM? Because at the time it was rated 5 hp higher than the 2006 Vipers' 500hp. Next iteration of the Viper? You guessed it. Again, at a cost of millions of dollars, this time by Dodge, the 2007 Viper was rated at 510 hp. 5hp more than the LS7. For the big boys, it made a huge difference. In the long run, the sports car enthusiast won out. Cool.
That's even a better point to drive what I'm saying home. They know that hp sells. look at the camaro ,1 more hp then the challenger. I'm a big mopar fan but an even bigger motorhead. That one hp push me to gm.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:20 PM   #61
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:37 PM   #62
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Some really smart guy on my thread about this told me that w/ CAI/exhaust, you also get better mileage (I assume because the engine doesn't have to work as hard.) So if you're planning to keep your car for a long time - and I plan to - better mileage would eventually pay for itself and more.

So you get:

Better mileage
Better sound (subjective, of course)
More hp
And eventually, MORE than reimbursed.

Or at least that's how I understand it.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:29 AM   #63
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thanks MarylandSpeed, but a little insulting.... I DO get it, but YOU, as a vendor, may be a bit biased. I've written several times that personalization is absolutely cool! But I'm hoping that vendors(no I'm not saying you) not pass off mods as big performance gainers because as we see...they are NOT. These small HP increases do not equal correlative performance gains. It seems exponential HP gains are needed to get any significant performance change.
I don't think anyone here (I hope) is telling someone they are gonna strap on a catback or intake and win a race. I mean if you think that..you simply have not done your research. That being said..in performance and modding..small differences mean a lot. I tell people for instance all the time that intakes are like shoes...they all do basically the same thing..it's just a matter what style you want, and how much money you want to spend. Yet there was still a huge thread over a CAI test with people sweating the details. People care about any edge they can get..no matter how minor. IMO, it is really no different that saying..well why spend $3000 on the latest TV, when a $600 Vizio set will do just fine? While the difference between the two might not matter to someone who is not into TV's..to someone who is, the difference is huge. All I am saying is..if it't not you cup of tea..then that is fine..however I don't think it's fair to make out like someone who does care is unreasonable.


Quote:
95% of us will not add a turbo or NOS or supercharger or change the cam or other semi-major mods. So we will NOT gain much of anything in the way of performance by simply adding a $400 CAI or $1200 cat-back exhaust. (if you plan to go on and add major engine changes in the future, then disregard this thread)
Most people do bolt on's because they are easy. Cold Air intakes are questionable, and always have been. I think most people install them to look cool, and say they have modded. However once you have modded more, you will see greater gains from a intake. As for a catback...there is some gain to replacing the resonators and factory mufflers, but exhaust is all about sound. I have customers who run $300 Pacesetter headers, but in the same purchase spend $1,000+ on a Corsa exhaust because they "want the Corsa sound". IMO..if we are talking Bolt ons, the one that carry's it's weight is headers which can net 25-45 rwhp (10% more power). However that is just on the edge of what most shade tree mechanics would do to a new $40K car.

Quote:
So I DO get it, but maybe am trying to help the AVERAGE (95% of us) Camaro owner who is duped by quick fix items to 'go faster'! The AVERAGE owner is not going to be racing his car weekly, so tenths of seconds ARE worthless. Especially when it costs thousands to get it. Mods won't really make you go faster, but they sure can look or sound cool. So if we simply agree that it's good to personalize a car, but don't get misled into thinking that (m)any of these simple mods will make your Camaro a race car...
No one is "duping" anyone into anything. It's your money..and the internet is a big place..spend it wisely and expect rational conclusions. I have customers that call and say.."Well I am buying a Intake which has 15HP, Exhaust which is 10HP, and headers which are 40HP, so I will get 65HP from these mods..right?". Then I have to talk them down, and explain that it does not work that way..and they get a little deflated..but still buy the parts. That being dai..if you do mod your car...say cam, blower, or whatever...an intake and exhaust WILL make more power. Just on a stock car, the stock components (outside of headers), can flow the air your engine can pump through it just fine.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:55 AM   #64
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Added a CAI, larger throttle body, long tube headers and Corsa exhaust along with a tune on my LS6 ZO6 and picked up about 70 horsys and easily 7/10's of a second in the quarter mile. Cost about 5k for 7 car lengths in the quarter mile. Was it worth it? OH YEAH!!!
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:29 AM   #65
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it seems to me that he doesn't understand tenths of a second...but that's ok. you're not a racer. keep your car stock and let people fight their own battles on whether to mod the car or not...
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:03 PM   #66
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I don't know if I'm not saying things clearly enough or if people reading too deeply into what I say, somehow feel guilty/paranoid on their spending decisions or are simply not reading this thread...BUT LET ME BE A LITTLE MORE CLEAR SO I QUIT FEELING THAT 'I DONT GET IT'

IF YOU ARE A GUY WHO IS INTO RACING YOU SHOULD GO OUT AND BUY LOTS OF MODS BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE HP IS VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT SO THAT YOU CAN BE SUPER FAST!!!!! I GET IT!!!!

THE REST OF US WHO ARE NOT FORMALLY RACING OUR CARS DON'T REALLY NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE MINUSHA, BUT INSTEAD BUY THE FUN STUFF, MAKE IT LOOK/SOUND GOOD. DON'T WORRY IF IT DOESN'T GIVE THE EXTRA 2HP AS IT WON'T MATTER ANYWAY!!!
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:49 PM   #67
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I don't think there's anything wrong w/ wanting the best for your vehicle. The CAI test was notable in that it listed more than hp gain. It also went into how good the instructions were, if you would need additional tuning, and if you would have to move other components of your Camaro around. One thing I wish it listed is the price of each. Being interested in having more hp is just as valid as being interested in the best-looking CAI. I have to wonder about the whole idea of "don't worry about the power gain!" That's the whole point of the mod. That's like saying, "Don't worry that Nike shoes will only last 3 months - they're pretty!"

No offense to you.

Or Nike, for that matter.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by drtwo View Post
I don't know if I'm not saying things clearly enough or if people reading too deeply into what I say, somehow feel guilty/paranoid on their spending decisions or are simply not reading this thread...BUT LET ME BE A LITTLE MORE CLEAR SO I QUIT FEELING THAT 'I DONT GET IT'

IF YOU ARE A GUY WHO IS INTO RACING YOU SHOULD GO OUT AND BUY LOTS OF MODS BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE HP IS VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT SO THAT YOU CAN BE SUPER FAST!!!!! I GET IT!!!!

THE REST OF US WHO ARE NOT FORMALLY RACING OUR CARS DON'T REALLY NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE MINUSHA, BUT INSTEAD BUY THE FUN STUFF, MAKE IT LOOK/SOUND GOOD. DON'T WORRY IF IT DOESN'T GIVE THE EXTRA 2HP AS IT WON'T MATTER ANYWAY!!!
Seriously...I don't race my car...but I'm glad that I've done what I've done and the difference is MORE than noticeable.

You seem to be trying to say that we're trying to convince you that modding is the way to go...

In reality, I think what's really happening here is that you are trying to convince yourself that not modding is the way to go. Good luck with that.
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