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Old 10-26-2009, 07:52 PM   #18
wrek
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To those saying instant damage isn't likely... that's complete crap. When I accelerate hard, especially several times in a row, my wallet gets damaged... it's small but it's cumulative. Be warned!
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Old 10-26-2009, 10:27 PM   #19
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I had in mind a standard F-Body engine (LT1 or LS1), particularly the LT1.

It would be really cool if you could stay street legal and still be able to keep up with a ZR1 on the highway or soemthign.

But I did some HW:
outlawz is running 5.882@120mph in the 1/8th mile, I found a Lingenfelter ZR1 time (from here) and it read 6.539@111.420.

(BTW, I hope he doesn't mind me using his Camaro as an example...) :(

So you probably can, but street legal?
Street legal is not a matter of how much hp you've got. Its a matter of having a working horn, headlights, tail lights, wind shield, and whatever else they can give you a ticket for not having.

Too much hp? Never been an issue. There are guys with over 1000rwhp that drive their cars on the street.

btw, I've seen a Nova that would wax a zr1 on the 8th based on the time you gave. The thing is the nova is a purpose built race car. I doubt it had a horn(like the cops will tell you to honk your horn anyway), but the head lights and tail lights work on it. It runs like 4s I heard once it got in the 3s. I've seen 4s with my own eyes.

Trust me stay away from lt1s... Very difficult to work on, out dated, and they have some pretty jacked up design issues such as when the water pump goes out it WILL leak on the optispark which is not cheap.

They can be made fast just like anything else, but a much better engine is the ls1.

The ls1 is much more simple to me. Both are pretty cheap.

To put things into perspective... A buddy of mine had an lt1 and he had full boltons on it already and a cam planned. I told him my full bolton dyno numbers on my ls1 and he told me his with a cam would put out about the same. Then he bought an ls1 and cammed it

An important rule to remember is anything can be made fast.

2 of the fastest cars I've ridden in were a I think '68 roadrunner(reminds me of Vin Diesel's car at the end of Fast n Furious 1) and a I think '95 front wheel drive eclipse.

A 440CI roadrunner and a 4cyl eclipse... Think about that... lol

The road runner's power was breath taking from a dead stop. It was like you're sitting still and boom... FLIGHT! The most hauling ass I've done in my life from a dig lol.

My other buddy had an eclipse which had a built engine and turbo and who knows what all else. Well we were going around a curve at about 85mph and he decides to downshift to 3rd and softly lay into the pedal. This mfer started blowing the tires off at 85mph on a curve and had me about shitting my self. We were out in the country and I saw nothing but trees lol Guy could drive. He said he has stuck to Viper before...

anyways, built can be better than bought. Street legal is not decided by hp.

Get an ls1,6,3,7,9 and you'll be in good shape lol
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:30 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by MrCool View Post
Howdy All,
I don't know if this is a dumb question, but oh well:

What kind of damage happens to the engine (Camaro or a regular car) when you accelorate hard, and how would you spot this damage?

You know, like




Just Curious...
you cant usually spot the damage (ie wear and tear) that gets put on the car during hard accelleration. that is, until something breaks.

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Originally Posted by Zhawk View Post
and a case of permagrin.

If you take care of you Camaro properly this shouldn't be a problem. My 95 Z/28 has been to the track plenty of time and so far the only thing with a problem is the rear end.
the rear end was a problem before you took it to the track.

damn 10 bolts....


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCool View Post
I had in mind a standard F-Body engine (LT1 or LS1), particularly the LT1.

It would be really cool if you could stay street legal and still be able to keep up with a ZR1 on the highway or soemthign.

But I did some HW:
outlawz is running 5.882@120mph in the 1/8th mile, I found a Lingenfelter ZR1 time (from here) and it read 6.539@111.420.

(BTW, I hope he doesn't mind me using his Camaro as an example...) :(

So you probably can, but street legal?
1/8 mile times are one thing, but what are those two cars running in the 1/4? LS series engines have some stupid rediculous top end power.


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Originally Posted by wrek View Post
To those saying instant damage isn't likely... that's complete crap. When I accelerate hard, especially several times in a row, my wallet gets damaged... it's small but it's cumulative. Be warned!

its not always small. my trans shit the bed on a hard launch. well, 2nd and 4th gear did anyway. 1st gear let go a month ago doing a burnout. lmao.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7CAMARO7 View Post
Street legal is not a matter of how much hp you've got. Its a matter of having a working horn, headlights, tail lights, wind shield, and whatever else they can give you a ticket for not having.

Too much hp? Never been an issue. There are guys with over 1000rwhp that drive their cars on the street.

btw, I've seen a Nova that would wax a zr1 on the 8th based on the time you gave. The thing is the nova is a purpose built race car. I doubt it had a horn(like the cops will tell you to honk your horn anyway), but the head lights and tail lights work on it. It runs like 4s I heard once it got in the 3s. I've seen 4s with my own eyes.

Trust me stay away from lt1s... Very difficult to work on, out dated, and they have some pretty jacked up design issues such as when the water pump goes out it WILL leak on the optispark which is not cheap.

how are LT1s any harder to work on than any other engine? their "jacked up" design issues are where the LS1 takes its roots. the optispark mounting location was not the best choice when they designed this motor, but the water pump weep hole can be taken care of by a small piece of hose. not to mention, the water pump on the LT1 is not belt driven. meaning if your belt snaps, you can still drive a good distance without worrying about overheating the engine. the opti... when it works, it works. ive seen 1000+hp combos running a stock GM optispark without fail. and ive seen optis crap out from morning mist. not to mention the reverse flow cooling that allows higher stock cr.

but ive never seen an LT1 with piston slap like an LS1.

They can be made fast just like anything else, but a much better engine is the ls1.

The ls1 is much more simple to me. Both are pretty cheap.
depending on how you look at it, the LT1 is more simple. but its personal opinion on that point. both engines have their high and low points. both engines were the top dogs of the day in their time.

To put things into perspective... A buddy of mine had an lt1 and he had full boltons on it already and a cam planned. I told him my full bolton dyno numbers on my ls1 and he told me his with a cam would put out about the same. Then he bought an ls1 and cammed it
dyno numbers dont mean squat if you cant put that power to the ground.
I respect the LS1, but my LT1 has handed many an LS car their ass.


An important rule to remember is anything can be made fast.

2 of the fastest cars I've ridden in were a I think '68 roadrunner(reminds me of Vin Diesel's car at the end of Fast n Furious 1) and a I think '95 front wheel drive eclipse.

A 440CI roadrunner and a 4cyl eclipse... Think about that... lol

The road runner's power was breath taking from a dead stop. It was like you're sitting still and boom... FLIGHT! The most hauling ass I've done in my life from a dig lol.

My other buddy had an eclipse which had a built engine and turbo and who knows what all else. Well we were going around a curve at about 85mph and he decides to downshift to 3rd and softly lay into the pedal. This mfer started blowing the tires off at 85mph on a curve and had me about shitting my self. We were out in the country and I saw nothing but trees lol Guy could drive. He said he has stuck to Viper before...

anyways, built can be better than bought. Street legal is not decided by hp.

Get an ls1,6,3,7,9 and you'll be in good shape lol

LS motors are the future, but you cant progress forward without remembering the past and what got you to where you are.

like I said before, I respect the LS1, but I love the LT1.

LS1s are smooth, easy power.
LT1s are hard, rough power. and I like it rough.


both engines have their benefits, the LS architecture uses 6 bolt mains, aluminum blocks, composite intake manifold, coil on cylinder ignition, plus many other great benefits.

the LT architecture (save for the LT5's), are a mix of 2 and 4 bolt mains, cast iron blocks (good for racing), gear driven water pump, reverse flow cooling, lightweight rotating assy (pink rods. lol), dry intake, and other things.

its chevy v8 architecture. just like the LS1 being compared to the LS3. the LS3 is a superior engine. it was designed to be a superior engine to the LS1 the same way the LS1 was designed to be superior to the LT1. I cant wait till the Gen V motors start making their way into production and the LS3 will be outdated.




all that being said. back to the main point of this thread.

what kind of damage can be caused by hard accelleration.

that really depends on if you spin or hook.
if you dead hook, you are putting a strain on the drivetrain and suspension. the stock rear end in these cars is one of the weakest links in the car.
now, if you spin, you are still putting some strain on the same parts, but not as much as dead hooking 3700lbs. and part of that is just due to the way the car is built. stamped steel control arms, non-welded axle tubes, torque arm mounted to the transmission tailshaft, etc.

things can break at any power level. however, unless you are running slicks or some damn good tires, you more than likely wont be dead hooking often.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:07 PM   #21
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1/8 mile times are one thing, but what are those two cars running in the 1/4? LS series engines have some stupid rediculous top end power
I don't know what the ZR1 runs in the 1/4.. With a 6.5 in the 1/8th it's probably around 10.7 or so.....

I ran a 9.20@151mph on that 5.88 1/8th mile pass so ridiculous top end power i have covered.... LS motors are just like anything else when it comes to top end power. They have great head flow and make good power in the upper RPM band which is where you need it past the 1/8th mile....

Having an LS vs LT discussion isn't that smart. The LT was a 5 year run in the F-body while they were developing the LS series of motors. It's truly a red headed step child if you will.... Aftermarket parts availability was not bad but once the LS1 motor came out all the companies started producing parts for it and not the LT motors. Which is why there is NO aftermarket block availability for LTx motors which would allow us to produce ALOT more power.

HOWEVER, the caveat to that is that the LT1 is basically a 23 degree headed reverse cooled small block chevy. Take away the funky front mount distributor and cam driven water pump and you have a 2 bolt main small block from the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc... There are ups to that fact. Alot of parts that work for SBC's will work for LT1's. Cranks, rods, pistons are pretty much the same and can make for a killer bottom end. 4 bolt conversions are available with a good machine shop. Reverse cooled 23 degree heads from AFR flow very well and allow you to run quite a bit of compression since the heads and combustion chambers stay cool. The manifold on the LT is where you run into issues. At RPM levels above 6500 the manifold is complete garbage. Air reversion and turbulence cuts power at those levels and above. So you have to convert to a single plane fuel injected manifold which can be costly. Yes the LT1 stock vs stock is not as good as the LS motor. The LS has a better aftermarket, heads flow better, bottom end is strong, aluminum blocks are a plus, etc..... However if you pour 10K into an LS1 and put 10K into an LT1 you'll find that the LT is not very far behind in performance.....

My motor for example. Custom built 4 bolt main stock block LT1. Stroked to 383 cubic inches, 6" rod, JE nitrous pistons. AFR 227cc reverse cooled heads (stock is 190cc), single plane edelbrock manifold with accufab 1250cfm throttle body.... it's QUITE a serious piece and the price tag is not for the faint of heart. But in my 3400 lb car it will run 10.6@127 on motor (which is about on par with a stock ZR1 which is lighter AND supercharged) and on nitrous which is what it was built for it has the power to run in the 8.90's full tilt on everything we can throw at it.... My motor was built to run up to about a 500hp shot of nitrous oxide. currently we have only sprayed it with a 325 shot (which resulted in the 9.20@151).... So the point of this post was to show that it doesn't matter what engine you have. LT, LS, LX, TQ, PS... doesn't matter. you throw enough money at a small block chevy and it'll run. It's all in your COMBINATION of parts and having smart people around you to help you make the decisions about what will work and what won't. I've been lucky to have guys like that around me along the way....
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Old 10-27-2009, 05:13 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
how are LT1s any harder to work on than any other engine? their "jacked up" design issues are where the LS1 takes its roots. the optispark mounting location was not the best choice when they designed this motor, but the water pump weep hole can be taken care of by a small piece of hose. not to mention, the water pump on the LT1 is not belt driven. meaning if your belt snaps, you can still drive a good distance without worrying about overheating the engine. the opti... when it works, it works. ive seen 1000+hp combos running a stock GM optispark without fail. and ive seen optis crap out from morning mist. not to mention the reverse flow cooling that allows higher stock cr.

but ive never seen an LT1 with piston slap like an LS1.

They can be made fast just like anything else, but a much better engine is the ls1.
lt1s are harder to work on becaust they take up more space in the engine bay.

opti spark placement sucks and its good to know theres a fix for it

SPEAKING OF OVERHEATING an if an lt1 loses its coolant or if the water pump fails, the engine WILL overheat and possibly kill its self. Ls1s and the 3800s around those years will both shut down if the temp gets too high and save the engine from further damage...

I respect the lt1 also, but I wouldn't touch one due to the fact that there are other cheap and more efficient ways to go.

and yea, I agree anything can be made fast.
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Old 10-27-2009, 05:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
you cant usually spot the damage (ie wear and tear) that gets put on the car during hard accelleration. that is, until something breaks.
Yes you can... You get an oil analysis

They tell you averages on wear for your kind of engine and where your engine stands. They look at all the different elements inside your engine and tell you if excess iron is showing up in your oil for instance. That would mean your crank is probably wearing away faster than it should as well as all the other parts.

I got one and they told me that my oil, engine wear, oil filter, and air filter are all doing a great job. This lab told me I can do 8000 oil changes as long as I keep using the stuff I'm using
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 7CAMARO7 View Post
lt1s are harder to work on becaust they take up more space in the engine bay.

opti spark placement sucks and its good to know theres a fix for it

SPEAKING OF OVERHEATING an if an lt1 loses its coolant or if the water pump fails, the engine WILL overheat and possibly kill its self. Ls1s and the 3800s around those years will both shut down if the temp gets too high and save the engine from further damage...

I respect the lt1 also, but I wouldn't touch one due to the fact that there are other cheap and more efficient ways to go.

and yea, I agree anything can be made fast.
both engines fill up the engine bay.

as for the overheating... if you arent smart enough to shut your car down when you are overheating, you deserve to blow a head gasket. lol
my point was that if you snap your belt with an LS1, (unless you have an electric w/p), you can drive till the car overheats and shuts itself down. with an LT1, you can continue to drive till the battery is completely dead.


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Originally Posted by 7CAMARO7 View Post
Yes you can... You get an oil analysis

They tell you averages on wear for your kind of engine and where your engine stands. They look at all the different elements inside your engine and tell you if excess iron is showing up in your oil for instance. That would mean your crank is probably wearing away faster than it should as well as all the other parts.

I got one and they told me that my oil, engine wear, oil filter, and air filter are all doing a great job. This lab told me I can do 8000 oil changes as long as I keep using the stuff I'm using

but then YOU arent seeing the wear and tear. and say you changed the oil 2k ago, and you went out and dead hooked and twisted the crank just slightly, you wouldnt be able to notice that right away. maybe at the next oil change you might see some shavings or your oil analysis might show something, but you wont know then and there unless something breaks.

I do recommend people send their oil off for analysis at every other oil change or so depending on the age and mileage on the vehicle.
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:26 PM   #25
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Who twists the cranks in lt1s and ls1s? Not normal people with less than 1000rwhp I'm guessing.

and I think the ls1 takes up less space in the engine bay. I've worked around both and I'd seriously hate to long tube an lt car. They were bad enough on my ls1 but doable.

and the overheating lt1 shutdown thing has nothing to do with how smart you are. Everybody doesn't know what their car will do if it doesn't usually happen everyday.

I did my coolant flush on my car and everything went fine.

I helped my buddy do his on his lt1 and neither he or I know that while the radiator looked full that his car could still over heat. We were waiting for the coolant level to drop to add to the radiator and his car was just idling like normal the whole time. A few min later the coolant was still at the top and we looked at the temp and the mfer was like at 300*!!! it was idling perfect too, but we knew the guage was saying shut it down.

point is we had no other indication it was over heating besides the guage inside the car. It continued to run perfect.

an ls1 or l36 car will start missing badly and eventually turn itself off instead of screwing around with your head gaskets which can be costly to replace.

And back to the oil analysis. Yea an oil analysis will tell you of things that can be a problem down the road if you do not catch it soon enough. But when something is broken it is broken. And yes, you are seeing where and tear in an oil analysis as far as what is going on in the engine, otherwise it would be pointless to do.

If your engine is still stock, you've got nothing to worry about when getting on it... It'll take it. If you've got a 6spd just upgrade your pushrods, maintain excellent maintenance, and have a blast... you won't twist your crank, I promise... Even if you do dead hook with a stock engine.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:15 PM   #26
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LS1s are smooth, easy power.
LT1s are hard, rough power. and I like it rough.
I like rough, raw MUSCLE! That why I've never like small little rubber band cars (ie. rice rockets). Just pure numbers.

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no such thing as a stupid question...You can beat a zr1 with 100hp if the vehicle is light enough(i.e. street bike).
I always forget about weight...it makes a big difference too.

wHEW! I hope you guys don't mind these, lol:

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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
cast iron blocks (good for racing)
Like drag strip racing, track racing, street racing, or...?

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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
that really depends on if you spin or hook.
if you dead hook, you are putting a strain on the drivetrain and suspension. the stock rear end in these cars is one of the weakest links in the car.
now, if you spin, you are still putting some strain on the same parts, but not as much as dead hooking 3700lbs. and part of that is just due to the way the car is built. stamped steel control arms, non-welded axle tubes, torque arm mounted to the transmission tailshaft, etc.
So what would be an example of Spinning/Hooking?

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Having an LS vs LT discussion isn't that smart. The LT was a 5 year run in the F-body while they were developing the LS series of motors. It's truly a red headed step child if you will.... Aftermarket parts availability was not bad but once the LS1 motor came out all the companies started producing parts for it and not the LT motors. Which is why there is NO aftermarket block availability for LTx motors which would allow us to produce ALOT more power.
Why would inavailability (i pulled that word outta my @$$), make us able to produce more power?

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anyways, built can be better than bought. Street legal is not decided by hp.
I've always liked building things than just BUYING it, it's always more fun...

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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
you cant usually spot the damage (ie wear and tear) that gets put on the car during hard accelleration. that is, until something breaks.
Makes sence, until something breaks is probably what I had in mind.

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as for the overheating... if you arent smart enough to shut your car down when you are overheating, you deserve to blow a head gasket. lol...
The thing is, I know people who are like that...people who get their car info from Need For Speed.

That's a good thing to know too, you can drive 'till your battery dies if you snap a belt.

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Who twists the cranks in lt1s and ls1s?
What does it mean to twist a crank?
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:22 PM   #27
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you know the big pulley at the front center bottom of your engine? It is connected to a crank shaft that goes all the way through the engine to the back. The crank shaft makes the pistons go up and down and lubricates the cylinder walls with oil that it splashes up.

To twist the crank would be like twisting anything else I guess. Get a peice of paper roll it into a roll squeeze as hard as you can and twist it, something like that lol. But from what I remember, the crank and block on an ls1 is rated to 1000hp or rwhp. Either way it is only a couple more hp than what I have

Outlawz was saying there is not a ltx block which is truly badass like there is the lsx block. The lsx block is rated to like 2400-2500hp and the ltx just does not exist for those power levels
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:51 PM   #28
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Having an LS vs LT discussion isn't that smart. The LT was a 5 year run in the F-body while they were developing the LS series of motors. It's truly a red headed step child if you will.... Aftermarket parts availability was not bad but once the LS1 motor came out all the companies started producing parts for it and not the LT motors. Which is why there is NO aftermarket block availability for LTx motors which would allow us to produce ALOT more power.
I misread it...oops.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:09 AM   #29
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and I think the ls1 takes up less space in the engine bay. I've worked around both and I'd seriously hate to long tube an lt car. They were bad enough on my ls1 but doable.

depends on the LT's you go with and how worn the motor mounts are. my hooker LT's went in just fine. a lot easier than the LT's I helped install on my buddy's 01 t/a.
if the motor mounts are worn and the engine is sitting low it does make things dificult. and since most LT1 cars are 13+ years old now, most have saggy mounts that make header installs a pain.



I helped my buddy do his on his lt1 and neither he or I know that while the radiator looked full that his car could still over heat. We were waiting for the coolant level to drop to add to the radiator and his car was just idling like normal the whole time. A few min later the coolant was still at the top and we looked at the temp and the mfer was like at 300*!!! it was idling perfect too, but we knew the guage was saying shut it down.

the LT1 has those nice bleeder screws that you have to open to bleed down the system. but that's awesome that it was still running fine.... a testament to the LT1.

point is we had no other indication it was over heating besides the guage inside the car. It continued to run perfect.

remember that there are two water temp sensors for the LT1, one on the w/p and one on the head. and one sends a signal to the pcm (which will pull timing and modify operating parameters) while the other sends the signal to the dash. so even if the dash is saying its hot, it might still be w/in safe limits.

an ls1 or l36 car will start missing badly and eventually turn itself off instead of screwing around with your head gaskets which can be costly to replace.

head gaskests are like 40 bucks...

And back to the oil analysis. Yea an oil analysis will tell you of things that can be a problem down the road if you do not catch it soon enough. But when something is broken it is broken. And yes, you are seeing where and tear in an oil analysis as far as what is going on in the engine, otherwise it would be pointless to do.

If your engine is still stock, you've got nothing to worry about when getting on it... It'll take it. If you've got a 6spd just upgrade your pushrods, maintain excellent maintenance, and have a blast... you won't twist your crank, I promise... Even if you do dead hook with a stock engine.
what do you mean by upgrade your pushrods? meaning swap to hardened?

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Originally Posted by MrCool View Post
I like rough, raw MUSCLE! That why I've never like small little rubber band cars (ie. rice rockets). Just pure numbers.



I always forget about weight...it makes a big difference too.

wHEW! I hope you guys don't mind these, lol:



Like drag strip racing, track racing, street racing, or...?



So what would be an example of Spinning/Hooking?
spinning is just that, spinning the wheels. watch some drag race vids where the car is basically doing a burnout out of the hole.
hooking.... when the light turns green.... the car goes.


What does it mean to twist a crank?
just what it sounds like. your crankshaft rotates in the engine. and instead of it turning uniformly, one end of it rotates at a different speed than the other end, twisting it. hard to do with stock power levels.

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Originally Posted by 7CAMARO7 View Post

Outlawz was saying there is not a ltx block which is truly badass like there is the lsx block. The lsx block is rated to like 2400-2500hp and the ltx just does not exist for those power levels

that used to be true

however, Dart has been finalizing an LTX block that will be similar to the LSX block in that it can be bored and stroked all to hell and back, accept any OEM or aftermarket LTX head and provide us LTX guys with a decently priced aftermarket block that we can beat the piss out of.

and there are 1000+hp LT1's out there, most of them have filled or half filled blocks tho.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:57 AM   #30
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Howdy All,
I don't know if this is a dumb question, but oh well:

What kind of damage happens to the engine (Camaro or a regular car) when you accelorate hard, and how would you spot this damage?

You know, like



Just Curious...
This can be hard on any motor,but some more than others. Some stock motors don't oil the top end of the motor all that great which can cause the top end to be starved at higher Rpms. The rpms is what will kill the motor the quickest.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:45 PM   #31
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camarospike23, yes hardend push rods... the chromoloy part too.

I hear the 6spd cars can mechanically over rev and bend push rods that way. I've mechanically overrevved quite a few times by accident in the past but I decided to upgrade them for insurance.
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:57 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 7CAMARO7 View Post
camarospike23, yes hardend push rods... the chromoloy part too.

I hear the 6spd cars can mechanically over rev and bend push rods that way. I've mechanically overrevved quite a few times by accident in the past but I decided to upgrade them for insurance.
hardened pushrods arent what you want. unless they have a thicker sidewall than stock. hardening is really only good for if you are running guideplates to reduce pushrod shaving.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:28 PM   #33
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hardened pushrods arent what you want. unless they have a thicker sidewall than stock. hardening is really only good for if you are running guideplates to reduce pushrod shaving.
My oil analysis indicated that everything is better than it is in the average ls1. Everything is within or way better than spec
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:31 PM   #34
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My oil analysis indicated that everything is better than it is in the average ls1. Everything is within or way better than spec
oil analysis wont tell you if you bent a rod...
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