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Old 01-20-2009, 07:47 AM   #76
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The Mustang was first. The Camaro was built in response to the Mustang. The Z/28 was developed to race against the Mustang in sanctioned road racing competition, something the SS was never designed to do (unoffical street racing is another thing all together).

The Mustang was soundly beaten by the Z/28 on the road race track. The Z/28 is the "Hero" to the true rabid Camaro fans because when there were rules in place in an effort to even the playing field, the Z/28 defeated the Mustang. That made the Z/28 a legendary icon. The SS is an icon too but it will never have that historic championship racing heritage that the Z/28 has.

Sure we had the SS models with more power and fancy options BUT on the race track where Mustangs and Camaros were fighting it out, the Z/28 won the championship and earned the spot at the top.

This is the reason for some of the Z/28 fans.

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Old 01-20-2009, 08:31 AM   #77
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:21 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingr69 View Post
The Mustang was first. The Camaro was built in response to the Mustang. The Z/28 was developed to race against the Mustang in sanctioned road racing competition, something the SS was never designed to do (unoffical street racing is another thing all together).

The Mustang was soundly beaten by the Z/28 on the road race track. The Z/28 is the "Hero" to the true rabid Camaro fans because when there were rules in place in an effort to even the playing field, the Z/28 defeated the Mustang. That made the Z/28 a legendary icon. The SS is an icon too but it will never have that historic championship racing heritage that the Z/28 has.

Sure we had the SS models with more power and fancy options BUT on the race track where Mustangs and Camaros were fighting it out, the Z/28 won the championship and earned the spot at the top.

This is the reason for some of the Z/28 fans.

-Mark.
If I'm not mistaken, Z28 took a drag race championship or two also in the 1st Gen. I don't know how many SSs there were on tracks with turns but know there were Z28s kicking taillights on the quarter mile. This is the only referrence I could find:

http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html

I'm not suggesting Z28 is better, only that IMVO that you can't have Camaro without Z28
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:51 AM   #79
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The Mustang was soundly beaten by the Z/28 on the road race track. The Z/28 is the "Hero" to the true rabid Camaro fans because when there were rules in place in an effort to even the playing field, the Z/28 defeated the Mustang. That made the Z/28 a legendary icon. The SS is an icon too but it will never have that historic championship racing heritage that the Z/28 has.

I Would have never thought of that but its one hell of a good reason. My argument is you have an SS on so many Chevy names and the Z/28 means Camaro.
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Old 01-20-2009, 05:40 PM   #80
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If I'm not mistaken, Z28 took a drag race championship or two also in the 1st Gen. I don't know how many SSs there were on tracks with turns but know there were Z28s kicking taillights on the quarter mile. This is the only referrence I could find:

http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html

I'm not suggesting Z28 is better, only that IMVO that you can't have Camaro without Z28
Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins built 302 Z/28 engines for some other drivers in addition to Dave Strickler's "The Old Reliable", Z/28s ran well in their classes, they just had a difficult time with the higher performance big blocks. Back in 1969, the Chevy performance club I belonged to went to the drag strip for the day (and there were about 10-12 Z/28s in that club as well as other Camaros and Chevelles), several of the Z/28s ran and as I've often posted never had problems with the 396/325HP or 396/350HP Camaros (much less the SS350/295HP Camaro), it was the 396/375HP Camaros that could and often did give them problems, the 396/375 also ran high compression and solid lifters with a much higher redline like the smaller Z/28 and it made a difference. And of course one of the DZ302 engines claim to fame was it's ability for high RPM.
Check this video to see some DZ302 high revs.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/6...-DZ_156232.htm
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:29 PM   #81
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D@MN, 'paws!!! Now that you mention it, I remember reading there were a lot of big block guys spinning those engines to like 7 or 8. I can't believe that, solid lifter or not. Even with technology nowadays, that's hard. I mean to do it reliably, aren't people running shaft-mount rockers, titanium valves and such, and billet cranks and rods? These were stock engines, and they weren't even blue-printed, where they?...

Thanks for the video. That was friggin' cool. The last stock engine I heard that sounded that good was a Gen IV LS7, LOL!
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:51 PM   #82
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D@MN, 'paws!!! Now that you mention it, I remember reading there were a lot of big block guys spinning those engines to like 7 or 8. I can't believe that, solid lifter or not. Even with technology nowadays, that's hard. I mean to do it reliably, aren't people running shaft-mount rockers, titanium valves and such, and billet cranks and rods? These were stock engines, and they weren't even blue-printed, where they?...

Thanks for the video. That was friggin' cool. The last stock engine I heard that sounded that good was a Gen IV LS7, LOL!
Back in the day, I ran my bone stock (not balanced, not blue printed, no special parts) '69 Z/28 very often to 7,500 RPM, the only issue I ever had was some collapsed valve springs which the dealer was not going to cover under warranty (accused me of abusing the engine believe it or not!). Once I ranted and raved with the zone service rep for two days they did fix it under warranty. I was back in the dealer a couple of months later and the service manager came over and apologized, it seems I was just the first one they saw with that issue, there had been a run of springs tempered incorrectly and they had several Zs come in with the same issue. I loved that high winding DZ302, I really wish I had never sold it.
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:55 PM   #83
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:56 PM   #84
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Back in the day, I ran my bone stock (not balanced, not blue printed, no special parts) '69 Z/28 very often to 7,500 RPM, the only issue I ever had was some collapsed valve springs which the dealer was not going to cover under warranty (accused me of abusing the engine believe it or not!). Once I ranted and raved with the zone service rep for two days they did fix it under warranty. I was back in the dealer a couple of months later and the service manager came over and apologized, it seems I was just the first one they saw with that issue, there had been a run of springs tempered incorrectly and they had several Zs come in with the same issue. I loved that high winding DZ302, I really wish I had never sold it.
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I can only imagine what you feel regarding getting rid of that car. You're like an encyclopedia of Camaro Your information is always
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:15 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins built 302 Z/28 engines for some other drivers in addition to Dave Strickler's "The Old Reliable", Z/28s ran well in their classes, they just had a difficult time with the higher performance big blocks. Back in 1969, the Chevy performance club I belonged to went to the drag strip for the day (and there were about 10-12 Z/28s in that club as well as other Camaros and Chevelles), several of the Z/28s ran and as I've often posted never had problems with the 396/325HP or 396/350HP Camaros (much less the SS350/295HP Camaro), it was the 396/375HP Camaros that could and often did give them problems, the 396/375 also ran high compression and solid lifters with a much higher redline like the smaller Z/28 and it made a difference. And of course one of the DZ302 engines claim to fame was it's ability for high RPM.
Check this video to see some DZ302 high revs.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/6...-DZ_156232.htm
Clyde
Are correct! I had a 396/325 in my 69 SS Chevelle. I liked the car but it was a SLUG Brother-in-law had a 68 SS Chevelle 396/375 with 4.10's! What a beast. Always snorted my 65 Malibu SS 327/350 but with my 3.31? rear I would top end the snot out of him.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:10 PM   #86
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I can only imagine what you feel regarding getting rid of that car. You're like an encyclopedia of Camaro Your information is always
Thank you radz282003, I know the first gens. pretty well having bought a new '67 and then a new '69 (and I was an absolute maniac about wanting to know every detail), the 2nd gens. I know a little about, 3rd and 4th gens. I know absolutely nothing about, I got away from Camaros for a number of years. I hope we see a new Z/28 at some point, however they decide to build it if they indeed do so.
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:00 AM   #87
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Z28

what if they made a Z28 that was lighter because gutted out or they used lighter body parts. Engine with less HP than the LS3 but revved higher and weighed substantially less than the LS3. Special Z28 tuned suspension that would make this car handle on a closed course track and be virtually unbeatable by the competition. That would keep the Z28 history alive and true to its roots and all this for about the same MSRP as the SS?
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:08 AM   #88
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what if they made a Z28 that was lighter because gutted out or they used lighter body parts. Engine with less HP than the LS3 but revved higher and weighed substantially less than the LS3. Special Z28 tuned suspension that would make this car handle on a closed course track and be virtually unbeatable by the competition. That would keep the Z28 history alive and true to its roots and all this for about the same MSRP as the SS?
..........yeah.......lighten the car..........higher rev motor............and different suspension............yeah and all for the same amount of money........yeah.......sure
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:17 AM   #89
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lol

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..........yeah.......lighten the car..........higher rev motor............and different suspension............yeah and all for the same amount of money........yeah.......sure
thats why i said what if?
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:20 AM   #90
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what if they made a Z28 that was lighter because gutted out or they used lighter body parts. Engine with less HP than the LS3 but revved higher and weighed substantially less than the LS3. Special Z28 tuned suspension that would make this car handle on a closed course track and be virtually unbeatable by the competition. That would keep the Z28 history alive and true to its roots and all this for about the same MSRP as the SS?
um.... why wouldn't they just do that to the SS then?? and there's no need to make it rev higher and make less power. That would make it worse. You can just overrev the LS3 and take it out of it's powerband if you wanted to rev higher and make less power. You'll get the same effect, and maybe even be a little faster in the process.
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:25 AM   #91
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good point

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um.... why wouldn't they just do that to the SS then?? and there's no need to make it rev higher and make less power. That would make it worse. You can just overrev the LS3 and take it out of it's powerband if you wanted to rev higher and make less power. You'll get the same effect, and maybe even be a little faster in the process.
Guess we will just have to wait and see.
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:17 AM   #92
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The z/28 was the purpose built race car back when it was released. Sadly, now days no one would buy a purpose built race car, which is why I think most people are expecting something like a LSA to overcome the weight, as opposed to a stripper with something high revving like the old 302's. I also think, given the price range the SS has been put into, if there was a new z/28, it would only fit into the puzzle above the SS.

Hate to add some fuel to the speculative fire, but everyone knows that there were only 602 z/28's made in 67. And that gm didn't release the first z/28 until late in the year.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:53 AM   #93
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what if they made a Z28 that was lighter because gutted out or they used lighter body parts. Engine with less HP than the LS3 but revved higher and weighed substantially less than the LS3. Special Z28 tuned suspension that would make this car handle on a closed course track and be virtually unbeatable by the competition. That would keep the Z28 history alive and true to its roots and all this for about the same MSRP as the SS?
light weight components of equal functionality cost more than heavy ones. Variations in production (more models, trims, and options) cost more, even if it is deleting some features available on other models (sounds crazy but its true).

That said, an LS7 in a Camaro with fibreglass body panels (carbon fibre costs too much for minimal benefit), the Corvette's Z51 suspension, applied to a 1SS without any options might keep the car in the mid $40K range and put the weight down to 3700 lbs or so. That would be enough to equal the power to weight ratio of the GT500 but give it better handling. It would be a real stretch but I think its possible, in the theoretical sense. But given the fact that the LS7 is on its way out (along with a lot of other factors) it is practically impossible.
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Old 02-17-2009, 12:40 PM   #94
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Question to the experts:

In any given year (where the SS and Z28 were sold side by side), which one of the two had the best 0-60 and 1/4 times???

Assuming both vehicles had the highest HP motor for that package??
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:36 PM   #95
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Doing some digging, I found this information published online for the 69 model year.

Z28
0-60 mph, sec: 7.4
1/4 mile, sec @ mph: 15.12 @ 94.8

SS 396/375
0-60 mph, sec: 6.8
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 14.7 @ 98.7

ZL1
0-60 mph, sec: 5.4
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 13.5 @ 105

Then I found this info from Popular Hot rod magazine when they tested both cars. I have seen numbers all over the board for all cars, depending on the magazine that did the testing.

Camaro SS396 396ci/375hp n/a 14.5 sec @ 100.6 mph PopularHot Rod
Camaro Z/28 302ci/290hp n/a 14.7 sec @ 95.9 mph PopularHot Rod

Not sure how valid any of this is as I've also seen one magazine report the 87 IROC-Z with a 350 run 15.3 @ 98, while the 305 ran 14.9 @ 95 and then another magazine will show the 350 at 15.7 @ 96, with one more magazine showing the car at 14.4!!!
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:58 PM   #96
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Doing some digging, I found this information published online for the 69 model year.

Z28
0-60 mph, sec: 7.4
1/4 mile, sec @ mph: 15.12 @ 94.8

SS 396/375
0-60 mph, sec: 6.8
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 14.7 @ 98.7

ZL1
0-60 mph, sec: 5.4
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 13.5 @ 105

Then I found this info from Popular Hot rod magazine when they tested both cars. I have seen numbers all over the board for all cars, depending on the magazine that did the testing.

Camaro SS396 396ci/375hp n/a 14.5 sec @ 100.6 mph PopularHot Rod
Camaro Z/28 302ci/290hp n/a 14.7 sec @ 95.9 mph PopularHot Rod

Not sure how valid any of this is as I've also seen one magazine report the 87 IROC-Z with a 350 run 15.3 @ 98, while the 305 ran 14.9 @ 95 and then another magazine will show the 350 at 15.7 @ 96, with one more magazine showing the car at 14.4!!!
I think those times (PHR) were more realistic with a good driver behind the wheel. Likewise with the IROCs, mid-14s.

I think for the most part, when both were run at the same time, SSs were a tick or two faster. LT1 SSs were a little faster; LS1s, though, were about the same unless you opt'd for the SLP catback - but then, it wasn't strictly an OEM car, since it has aftermarket parts on it. That's debatable I guess though.

Using the LS3 as the higher revv'ing more powerful example just makes it an LS7. With the durability testing requirements that I can remember reading about, it takes the forged crank and titanium rods for that LS7 to maintain that level of reliability that they are looking for under the testing they do. By making an LS3 rev' higher and make more power, you're talking about pretty much building an LS7, and that's going bye-bye.

I'm interested in seeing what replaces the LS7. Is that going to be an LSA or Gen V? I think this will give us a better idea of what is going into a Z28 down the road. I think it'll probably be a Gen V because they want a Z06 to be light, but I don't think that'll be the way Z28 goes. Maybe they'll just get rid of the Z06 altogether... Anyways, I think if GM keeps the Z06, there's a good chance they'll get that into Camaro somewhere to help spread out the R&D money for that engine.

I still have my own personal favorite for Z28, but to each his own
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:04 PM   #97
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why do you think they detuned the LS3 for the camaro?...so vette owners wouldnt bitch about it.
That's lame, even with the same HP rating the vette is still going to be faster. It's lighter by almost 600 pounds. I own a 400HP LS2 and don't have Camaro 426HP envy. It's because I know I'm still faster.

BTW look at the intake, the lower HP is caused by the different intakes, not DE-TUNING. It's the exact SAME motor.
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:13 PM   #98
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That's lame, even with the same HP rating the vette is still going to be faster. It's lighter by almost 600 pounds. I own a 400HP LS2 and don't have Camaro 426HP envy. It's because I know I'm still faster.

BTW look at the intake, the lower HP is caused by the different intakes, not DE-TUNING. It's the exact SAME motor.
It's about power-to-weight ratio. To me, it seems that adding another ~120 horsepower is easier than coming up with a cost-effective way to loose 300+ pounds. It's going to cost more to weigh less, as far as I can tell. I'm no engineer, so I'm talking out my arse (like most of the time) but we've already read countless times that the car weighs what it does because it was necessary, not because they wanted it to weigh 2-tons. Like DG' said in another thread, going carbon fiber wouldn't be cost effective (not to mention using aluminum and titanium). I don't see people paying more to get less. I don't see Z28 costing less than SS, only more, IMVHO. But hey, the car will be what it will be. If I don't like it, I don't have to buy it
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:48 PM   #99
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Dude, that was this thread. Read post 96
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:50 PM   #100
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Dude, that was this thread. Read post 96
:bangdesk:

LOL - What a dumbs**t! My bad!
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