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Old 02-17-2009, 02:55 PM   #101
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Not sure how valid any of this is as I've also seen one magazine report the 87 IROC-Z with a 350 run 15.3 @ 98, while the 305 ran 14.9 @ 95 and then another magazine will show the 350 at 15.7 @ 96, with one more magazine showing the car at 14.4!!!

the times however are possible considering that the 305 came with an M5 and the 350 came with an auto trans. and depending on the option codes, G92 and L98 cars got a 7.75" 4 pinion rear end which might have had a little to play in there as well.

the 350's also came with 3.27 gears. and another tidbit of info... All 5 spd 305 TPI '87 Camaros came with a better cam (25hp advantage) over the 305/autos which jumped the power from 190 up to 215hp
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:59 PM   #102
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the times however are possible considering that the 305 came with an M5 and the 350 came with an auto trans. and depending on the option codes, G92 and L98 cars got a 7.75" 4 pinion rear end which might have had a little to play in there as well.

the 350's also came with 3.27 gears. and another tidbit of info... All 5 spd 305 TPI '87 Camaros came with a better cam (25hp advantage) over the 305/autos which jumped the power from 190 up to 215hp
Without spending the time to research, I'm going to risk looking like a bigger moron by asking: didn't all IROC converts' come with the 305, or were those not IROCs?... I remember reading that GM didn't put 350s in the ragtops because the torque was too much for the chassis. I'm not 3rd Gen. guy though. That's the one generation I never gave much attention, for whatever reason.
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Old 02-17-2009, 03:19 PM   #103
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Without spending the time to research, I'm going to risk looking like a bigger moron by asking: didn't all IROC converts' come with the 305, or were those not IROCs?... I remember reading that GM didn't put 350s in the ragtops because the torque was too much for the chassis. I'm not 3rd Gen. guy though. That's the one generation I never gave much attention, for whatever reason.


well, the ragtops were made from t-top cars that already had extra bracing added to them. the convertable option was available for the Sport Coupe, Sport Coupe LT, Z28, and IROC-Z versions. but you are right that they were not offered with a 350.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:03 AM   #104
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Why Z/28 higher model than SS?

Why would a Z/28 Camaro out perform a SS model? I mean the excitement of announcing the Z is great but seriously... I think that traditional the SS is the Top of the line.

Supercharge the V6 and give it 340-360HP and call it a Z/28 with great Gas mileage. Just a thought.



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Old 09-22-2009, 09:06 AM   #105
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The obvious reason a Z28 would outperform the current SS model - the Z28 as envisioned would come from the factory with a supercharger.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:16 AM   #106
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I guess I am thinking in current line up... but is this presuming that the SS release at the time would be somewhere in the 600HP range?

I would have to say I hope so. I don't own one yet but obviously I will one of these days. Probably be a used 2010 2SS LOL
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:17 AM   #107
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I guess I am thinking in current line up... but is this presuming that the SS release at the time would be somewhere in the 600HP range?

mmmmm, keep dreaming.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:35 AM   #108
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Not dreaming, just find it absurd that a RPO traditionaly below the Super Sport will outperform it.

Interesting indeed... guess I am alone in this train of thought.

While we are dreaming... Hows about the ZL1, 700hp release by GMPP? LOL
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:52 AM   #109
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There's about 1000 different opinions on this. The Z/28 was always a more "limited" model than the SS in years that they were both produced. Would you rather have a 1st gen SS or Z/28?

I have a feeling when it does come back it'll be a limited model and have the pricetag that only limited people will be able to afford. If you want a 600hp SS, you'll have to go aftermarket.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:23 AM   #110
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I always thought the ss (super sport) was a base camaro with Z28 performance parts and the Z28 was the top of the line.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:26 AM   #111
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I always thought the ss (super sport) was a base camaro with Z28 performance parts and the Z28 was the top of the line.
That was true for the First Gen, and it's true for the Fifth Gen. Z28 played second fiddle to the SS in the Fourth gen, and it played second fiddle to the IROC in the Third. Not sure about Second gen, maybe somebody can chime in?
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:29 AM   #112
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this debate can go on and on...and I'm sure there's already 128698235 threads on it.
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Old 09-22-2009, 01:53 PM   #113
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Probably true... I am ashamed to say that I was not aware that the Z/28 was a top dog in the 1st Gen era... That makes sense now and kinda settles it for me.

Oh and there was only one year in the Third Gen's that had a coinciding Z/28 and IROC-Z model. 1985... and the IROC-Z stands for IROC-Z/28.

It was the Top of the line. In this and the Fourth Gen era... (btw what i am used to) the SS model was top dog... and Third Didn't have one at all. Z28 in all cases were it.

So... that settles it then for me anyway... makes sense 5thGen is a Modern Retro Spin and the RPO's follow GEN 1 tradition. I am good.

Thank you for your input and for setting this straight.
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Old 09-22-2009, 01:59 PM   #114
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I thought the SS was the top HP car in the first gen and the Z/28 was the track/performance car?

Also...the 4th gens...didn't SLP make the SS's then since GM only made Z/28s?
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Old 09-22-2009, 02:01 PM   #115
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I too don't understand why the Z28 is coming out as the top of the line camaro....
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Old 09-22-2009, 02:06 PM   #116
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I thought the SS was the top HP car in the first gen and the Z/28 was the track/performance car?

Also...the 4th gens...didn't SLP make the SS's then since GM only made Z/28s?
You are right!
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Old 09-22-2009, 02:20 PM   #117
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the Z/28 should stay true to it roots, higher revving naturally aspirated car that was lighter and handled better. I think they are straying from what a real Z/28 was with the 1st Gen. To me it would be an LS7 with a track pack of some sort, instead of some blown ground pounder

An yes the Z/28 from the first gen is the most collectible production car (COPOS and Yenkos excluded) mainly because rarity of one with original drivetrain that were not blown up and scattered all over hell
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:49 PM   #118
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Very good info here. The first gen Z/28s were built with the 302 CI motor to make them eligible for Trans Am racing. They used the 283 crank (stroke) in a 327 block (bore). The cars were light and handled extremely well. Rated HP was only 290, although many argue that they put out at least 350. Either way, the SS has always been the big dog on power.

I agree that they got it backwards this time around...
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:02 AM   #119
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as far as I know, the 2nd Gen was more like its sister, the Trans Am, with the standard bigger sway bars, more often seen with t-tops, bigger sway bars, the hi-po motors. Whether it may be like a T/A WS6=Z-28 then Formula=SS im not sure, but I havent seen a "bare" 2nd gen Z28. most ive seen have power windows, flares, and whats not.
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:05 AM   #120
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Very good info here. The first gen Z/28s were built with the 302 CI motor to make them eligible for Trans Am racing. They used the 283 crank (stroke) in a 327 block (bore). The cars were light and handled extremely well. Rated HP was only 290, although many argue that they put out at least 350. Either way, the SS has always been the big dog on power.

I agree that they got it backwards this time around...

From Wiki-pedia:

The SS included a 350 cu in (5.7 L) V8 engine and the L35 and L78 396 cu in (6.5 L) big-block V8's were also available. The SS featured non-functional air inlets on the hood, special striping and SS badging on the grille, front fenders, gas cap, and horn button. It was possible to order both the SS and RS to receive a Camaro RS/SS. In 1967, a Camaro RS/SS convertible with a 396 engine paced the Indianapolis 500 race.

The Z/28 option code was introduced in December 1966 for the 1967 model year. This option package wasn't mentioned in any sales literature, so it was unknown to most buyers. The Z/28 option required power front disc brakes and a Muncie 4-speed manual transmission. The Z/28 featured a 302 cu in (4.9 L) small-block V-8 engine, 3" crankshaft with 4" bore, an aluminum intake manifold, and a 4-barrel vacuum secondary Holley carburetor of 780CFM. The engine was designed specifically to race in the Trans Am series (which required engines smaller than 305 cu in (5 L) and public availability of the car. Advertised power of this engine was listed at 290 hp (216 kW). This is an under-rated figure. Chevrolet wanted to keep the horsepower rating at less than 1hp per cubic inch, for various reasons (e.g. insurance and racing classes). The factory rating of 290 hp occurred at 5300 rpm, while actual peak for the high-revving 302 was closer to 360 hp (268 kW) (with the single four barrel carb) and 400 hp (298 kW) (with optional dual-four barrel carbs) at 6800-7000 rpm. The Z/28 also came with upgraded suspension, racing stripes on the hood and trunk lid, '302' front fender emblems on the early cars, and 'Z/28' emblems in late 68 & 69. It was also possible to combine the Z/28 package with the RS package.

Hope this helps
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:06 AM   #121
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CALLING WILDPAWS!!!

I don't think I'd consider a 1st Gen SS a base car with Z28 parts because probably the most notable highlights of that generation Z28 was the little DZ302. You couldn't get that engine in an SS, or any other model because the torque wasn't there to move the car, so-to-speak. If I remember correctly, one couldn't even order a slushbox with the 302 because of the lack of low-end torque. That's not to say you couldn't swap converters with a TH350 or 400 and get all crazy at the strip, but I believe there were only M21s and M22 4-speeds available for that engine. The smallest engine in the SS was a 327 or 350. The other big highlight with the Z28 was the chassis; available disc brakes and other goodies made it handle at the track really well. The SS was the 1320' and street bruiser. You couldn't get anything but the 302 in Z28, while you could go as high as 454 (at the very end of the 1st Gen if I remember correctly - LS6) if you knew the right people; I know, for sure, there were L72 427s, L78 3696s, and ZL1 427s to be had too.

More to you question, probably no one would know, outside of GM. I think the SSs from the 4th Gen were REALLY popular; I don't have production figures handy, but I'd be willing to bet there was a higher demand for them than Z28s, mostly because of body and some subtle chassis refinements. This time around though, I just don't know why. I'll be the first to admit I recognize the Z28 it looks like we could likely see will not be a blast from the past, in that it's going to be heavier and have more power than the SS. Shoot, if it handles better, that might be a miracle, especially if they can keep the price reasonable to most regular Camaro-nuts. I think the SS fell in line with the rest of the Chevy line, being they had Cobalts, Impalas, Silverados, Trailblazers, all with SS credentials. Maybe Chevy thought they could grab more attention, right out of the gate. Personally, I think that was the case, and that they wanted to release a higher performing car a few years later. It seems, more often than not, that the Big Dawg model usually comes out a little later than the more mainstream models (except for the Challengers). Anyways, I think it's fair to say that Z28 will, at least, be a higher-performance car, considering the Mustang GT with the Track Pack does so well; and I won't even mention the elephant in the room... Whos though? It's definately safe to say that even if it doesn't come back, that we have one Hell of a Camaro with SS and I'd be pretty happy to roll one of those babies too

JMVHO.
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:21 AM   #122
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The reason to use the Z28 moniker is because it has brand recognition, and many of the people that recognize Z28 simply expect a V8 engine. There really isn't room for another V8 in the Camaro lineup unless it's supercharged so there you go.

Personally I still think GM would do well to consider a Z28 option as counter to Ford's trackpack. Z28 is waay cooler than trackpack and if they do make a topdog with a supercharger they still have a classic legendary tag to draw from with the '69 ZL1 which also happens to pair nicely the Corvette's topdog ZR1 branding.
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:51 AM   #123
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That was true for the First Gen, and it's true for the Fifth Gen. Z28 played second fiddle to the SS in the Fourth gen, and it played second fiddle to the IROC in the Third. Not sure about Second gen, maybe somebody can chime in?
Except for early 67's which some had drums, the SS had disc brakes, a different hood, console gauges, a tach in the dash, muncie transmission, 12 bolt rear end and multi-leaf springs, 350 had four, 396 had five leafs. The 350 had a nose stripe.

The 67 Z was plain looking I don't believe it even had emblems. The raised hood came out sometime for the 69.

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Old 09-23-2009, 12:56 AM   #124
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CALLING WILDPAWS!!!

I don't think I'd consider a 1st Gen SS a base car with Z28 parts because probably the most notable highlights of that generation Z28 was the little DZ302. You couldn't get that engine in an SS, or any other model because the torque wasn't there to move the car, so-to-speak. If I remember correctly, one couldn't even order a slushbox with the 302 because of the lack of low-end torque. That's not to say you couldn't swap converters with a TH350 or 400 and get all crazy at the strip, but I believe there were only M21s and M22 4-speeds available for that engine. The smallest engine in the SS was a 327 or 350. The other big highlight with the Z28 was the chassis; available disc brakes and other goodies made it handle at the track really well. The SS was the 1320' and street bruiser. You couldn't get anything but the 302 in Z28, while you could go as high as 454 (at the very end of the 1st Gen if I remember correctly - LS6) if you knew the right people; I know, for sure, there were L72 427s, L78 3696s, and ZL1 427s to be had too.

More to you question, probably no one would know, outside of GM. I think the SSs from the 4th Gen were REALLY popular; I don't have production figures handy, but I'd be willing to bet there was a higher demand for them than Z28s, mostly because of body and some subtle chassis refinements. This time around though, I just don't know why. I'll be the first to admit I recognize the Z28 it looks like we could likely see will not be a blast from the past, in that it's going to be heavier and have more power than the SS. Shoot, if it handles better, that might be a miracle, especially if they can keep the price reasonable to most regular Camaro-nuts. I think the SS fell in line with the rest of the Chevy line, being they had Cobalts, Impalas, Silverados, Trailblazers, all with SS credentials. Maybe Chevy thought they could grab more attention, right out of the gate. Personally, I think that was the case, and that they wanted to release a higher performing car a few years later. It seems, more often than not, that the Big Dawg model usually comes out a little later than the more mainstream models (except for the Challengers). Anyways, I think it's fair to say that Z28 will, at least, be a higher-performance car, considering the Mustang GT with the Track Pack does so well; and I won't even mention the elephant in the room... Whos though? It's definately safe to say that even if it doesn't come back, that we have one Hell of a Camaro with SS and I'd be pretty happy to roll one of those babies too

JMVHO.
M20 was wide ratio, M21 was close ratio and the M22 was a HD close ratio with a high 1st gear that you had to have at least a 4:11 rear to get it.

The 454 came out in 1970 and wasn't in a 1st Gen.

The SS was either a 350 or a 396. The 327 was never a SS in a 1st Gen.
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Old 09-23-2009, 01:41 AM   #125
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