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Old 07-10-2008, 09:49 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by KarlChev View Post
Hidden mark ups? Why is the dealer the bad guy? I didn't know that there was anything wrong with trying to make money.

I guess all the people that sold Wii's and Xbox360's on ebay are the devil too? If you are going to be mad at anyone, be mad at the people who can afford to pay a premium for a premium vehicle.
So exactly WHY do they have laws against scalping tickets then? I could make loads of money from people who want to pay a premium for them but for some odd reason it's considered illegal!!!
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:14 PM   #52
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So exactly WHY do they have laws against scalping tickets then? I could make loads of money from people who want to pay a premium for them but for some odd reason it's considered illegal!!!

A dealer selling a car - wait, scratch that - refusing to sell a car for less than "X" dollars OVER MSRP - is different from a scalper selling tickets right in front of the gate at Yankee Stadium.

You (dealer) are selling the cars new, untitled, and untill they change the insipid franchise laws in this country, the only way to buy a new car (can't buy directly from GM and pick it up right at the front door of Oshawa Assembly, but boy how I'd love to). A ticket is purchased at face value from the Yankees and being resold privately - same way those Wiis and X-Boxes are auctioned at insane prices on ebay. It would be like the Yankees hiring a department to sell their tickets, paying them to sell their tickets at face value, and making them the only resource for getting your tickets. But then that department decides to add their own fees on top of that, which do not make it back to the Yankees.

If anything, it should be legal for Joe Shmoe to scalp a World Series ticket right in front of the Stadium and illegal for dealers to refuse to sell any of their cars for more than the manufacturer has suggested the retail price is.

Or, at the very minimum, GM should have some fair game practice laws that might stipulate "if you add any fees beyond MSRP and state/county required fees for taxes and registration, we will limit how many cars you get next month".
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:49 AM   #53
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If they offered, I don't see a problem with that. If you asked them to pay 5k more, that's immoral/greedy.

At least thta's how I see it.
You hit the proverbial nail on the head. Very good, Mindz.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:31 AM   #54
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I bought Chicago/STL tickets on stubhub.com (legally promoted by mlb, btw) last month to a sept game already sold out and I have to say that I felt legally scalped. I'm not about to tell my wife we're not going to Wrigley Field (her lifelong dream) because we'll have to pay a premium price for the tickets.

And yeah, all the people that sold Wiis and Xbox360s on ebay are the devil too... When my 3 year old boy couldn't get a diecast Mater for Christmas because greedy bastards bought them all up from walmart to sell on ebay to make a dollar, yeah I have a problem with that...
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:19 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by KarlChev View Post
Hidden mark ups? Why is the dealer the bad guy? I didn't know that there was anything wrong with trying to make money.

I guess all the people that sold Wii's and Xbox360's on ebay are the devil too? If you are going to be mad at anyone, be mad at the people who can afford to pay a premium for a premium vehicle.
Look, there's nothing at all wrong with trying to make money. I wouldn't be mad at anyone for paying extra for a vehicle, either. I'd just feel sorry for them for their lack of common sense and business savvy. I just would rather not have to "wheel and deal" with someone who thinks that they should tack on an extra 5000 bucks for something that's already going to make them a profit. What value are you adding for that 5,000? The car will still depriciate (sp?) when I pull it off your lot and your inflated value won't apply to the blue book value on said car as it accrues mileage, etc. The same thing goes with dealer add-ons like pin-striping and undercoating/paint coating. I've never had a good experience with either undercoating or paint coating and I keep my cars immaculate (just like my Grandpa who worked in paint/body on the Corvette line back in the 60's and 70's taught me). So for me, your 5grand is like a "stupid tax" that you can't apply any REAL value to. Therefore, you're just sticking it to people dumb enough or IMPATIENT enough to pay it. You were 1/2 right about me. I didn't think that people marking up the Wii and 360 on eBay were evil, I just thought the people paying more than store prices for them were out of their minds. I waited 2 years to get my 360 and a year to buy my Wii, hence I didn't pay over store value for either.

I guess to cut it to the chase, if the salesperson in question or the finance manager or the whoever at the dealer wants to be an asshat, I just won't do business with them. Tacking an extra 5 g's onto a car that already is making you a profit to me means you're not too interested in making customers for life. Soo... that leads us back to my first statement: "Meh, I'll order mine through GMS."
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:35 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by KarlChev View Post
Hidden mark ups? Why is the dealer the bad guy? I didn't know that there was anything wrong with trying to make money.

I guess all the people that sold Wii's and Xbox360's on ebay are the devil too? If you are going to be mad at anyone, be mad at the people who can afford to pay a premium for a premium vehicle.

Compare a Wii to a Car? Seen the price difference those lately?
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:37 AM   #57
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Compare a Wii to a Car? Seen the price difference those lately?
ROFL! I was thinking the same thing, Ming.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:44 AM   #58
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Hidden mark ups? Why is the dealer the bad guy? I didn't know that there was anything wrong with trying to make money.

I guess all the people that sold Wii's and Xbox360's on ebay are the devil too? If you are going to be mad at anyone, be mad at the people who can afford to pay a premium for a premium vehicle.
Dunk hit it on the head. No one said the dealer is the 'bad guy' or 'the devil'. But just as the dealer wants to make money, we want to save money.

If GM told your dealership that they now sell cars to distributors instead of directly to dealerships and one distributor sold you the cars at $50 over invoice and one dealership told you that you'd get the cars at $5000 over invoice, which would the dealership choose? We're just doing the exact same thing that a dealership would.

I'm sure you'll find people who will pay the $5k premium, but don't expect to be treated like a hero when you try to justify it with 'supply and demand' and 'the dealership just wants to make money'. Consumers vote with our dollars. The people who don't know any better or who have money to spare will pay a premium -- the smart consumers won't.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:43 AM   #59
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If I walked into a dealership and saw a "Market Value" add-on...I'd say to the salesman, "I can see we are already on WAY different wavelengths, Have a nice day." Then, drive up and honk the horn with the $5000 in my pocket

(I did this actually)

I previously owned a 350Z. The first dealership I went to wouldn't even let me test drive it unless I signed a paper stating that I would purchase.

I laughed at him, went down the street...bought one on the spot after my test drive and drove back the next day (he was standing outside...in the same spot he was the previous day) and said, "Maybe the test drive wouldn't have been a bad idea afterall?"
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:48 PM   #60
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If you don't want to pay a dealer's mark up go somewhere else. When I bought my G8 GT in April I paid a $1500 mark up on it. I wanted the vehicle, they had the only one in the color I wanted in the area with the exception of one dealer that had a $8,000 mark up on theirs.

I don't feel like I was ripped off at all. The G8 GT is a "limited availability" vehicle for it's first year, and I love it, so I paid it. No problem.

HOWEVER...I would NOT have paid a mark up of $5k.
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:22 PM   #61
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If you don't want to pay a dealer's mark up go somewhere else.
I think the general consensus is that, we will!
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:42 PM   #62
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The dealership I work at is in the top 20 in the country. We do not charge over sticker for anything including the 5 ZR-1's we have sold. We do not have hidden fees are prep charges. This is how a dealership should work. My dealership is not in a big town and stays in the top ten dealerships in the country alot because of this fact.
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:45 PM   #63
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The dealership I work at is in the top 20 in the country. We do not charge over sticker for anything including the 5 ZR-1's we have sold. We do not have hidden fees are prep charges. This is how a dealership should work. My dealership is not in a big town and stays in the top ten dealerships in the country alot because of this fact.
10 or 20?! LOL
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:02 PM   #64
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I believe we're all here for several reasons. The love of the Camaro, to meet other fans of the Camaro, to share what we know/believe about the Camaro, but also because we are smart consumers. I think that we as a whole have shown to communicate well enough with each other that when we find a dealership not putting a premium price on their vehicles (limited supply vehicles included, hint hint) that these dealerships will be the ones floating around the threads. Everyone will be praising these dealerships and promoting them. They will be the one's receiving our repeat business. Those paying, say 5k over invoice/MSRP whatever will be the one's pissed off and looking for a new dealership to take their buisness to the next time they decide to make a new car purchase. And guess where they'll go... Like I said we communicate well enough that they'll know who's happy with what they spent and who's not. IMHO

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Old 07-11-2008, 03:08 PM   #65
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I believe we're all here for several reasons. The love of the Camaro, to meet other fans of the Camaro, to share what we know/believe about the Camaro, but also because we are smart consumers.
I'm just here for the free donuts.

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Old 07-11-2008, 03:10 PM   #66
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I'm just here for the free donuts.

Darn it! I always miss the free donuts when I come here!
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:03 PM   #67
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Wow, this thread has taken a major turn in the wrong direction.

The dealership that I work at has built its reputation by making sure that we take care of our customers. We are a top 10 Chevy dealer, and have led the Nation the last 3 years in pre-owned GM Certified vehicles sold. That doesn't happen by accident. Yes people do spend more money at times to do business here, but they know our reputation and know that they will be very well taken care of. We have over 2000 vehicles on 32 acres. Our owner just received a key to the city. We are far from the enemy.

Bottom line is this: V6 and "normal" V8's will not be sold for over sticker. I have no concrete information about what type of market adjustment would be made, if any, on limited availablilty (don't even know if there will be anything). I do know that when we have had limited edition vehicles (Indy Pace Cars, 427 badged Z06, and ZR1's) that we have "asked" for more than MSRP. Do we always get it? NO! Is there anything wrong with asking for it? Not in my opinion.

As far as allotments go. If we are allotted 50, and we have a list of 75, then the 1st 50 people with deposits have the 1st shot to buy a vehicle. I don't see how there is anything wrong with that.
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:41 PM   #68
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Wow, this thread has taken a major turn in the wrong direction.

The dealership that I work at has built its reputation by making sure that we take care of our customers. We are a top 10 Chevy dealer, and have led the Nation the last 3 years in pre-owned GM Certified vehicles sold. That doesn't happen by accident. Yes people do spend more money at times to do business here, but they know our reputation and know that they will be very well taken care of. We have over 2000 vehicles on 32 acres. Our owner just received a key to the city. We are far from the enemy.

Bottom line is this: V6 and "normal" V8's will not be sold for over sticker. I have no concrete information about what type of market adjustment would be made, if any, on limited availablilty (don't even know if there will be anything). I do know that when we have had limited edition vehicles (Indy Pace Cars, 427 badged Z06, and ZR1's) that we have "asked" for more than MSRP. Do we always get it? NO! Is there anything wrong with asking for it? Not in my opinion.

As far as allotments go. If we are allotted 50, and we have a list of 75, then the 1st 50 people with deposits have the 1st shot to buy a vehicle. I don't see how there is anything wrong with that.
Because #51 figures they don't have to look anymore. It's a waste of that person's time.

Also, taking a deposit for a vehicle that you don't have seems like you're selling on a chance. How about this...you give me $1000...for a Lamborghini. When it comes in, I'll call you. If it never comes in, now I have your $1000 when you could've had it in the bank collecting the interest or taking it somewhere else that actually HAS the vehicle in house.

Why not just take an email address or information from everybody that comes in asking...when you find out how many you are being allocated...call the first people that came in. If they've decided against the purchase...move on to the next person.

I just don't understand the need to "hold money" when you don't even know if you'll get the product to begin with.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:15 PM   #69
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I think we can all agree the Camaro is being reborn under some murky skies. GM stock is at a record low, there's talk about divisions merging/closing/selling, oil prices, and meeting CAFE in the future. If dealers all over, every single one of the over 4,000 Chevy dealers in the country, wanted to help GM, help us, and help everyone else ensure the solid foundation for a long life for Camaro, sales must be strong. Slapping a markup - ANY markup - on ANY Camaro, no matter how limited it's production may be, only slows the sales. While the dealer will wait untill someone is willing to pay the exhorbitant fees (a penny over MSRP is exhorbitant), they could have sold that same Camaro for sticker or under to numerous people who decided they won't pay and feel it's not worth the hassle to get it under MSRP.

We ALL want the Camaro to survive healthy for years to come, and not be just a one or two generation model and be finished again.

Could some of you dealers just put that in to perspective and think is it really worth the hassle, negative feedback, and slower sales that comes with holding out for a few extra bucks in your pocket?
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:45 PM   #70
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I never said mark up.
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Old 07-12-2008, 02:25 AM   #71
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Dealer Holdback

Dealer Holdback


Many car buyers don't understand what the dealer holdback is, what it is used for and what its role is, if any, in the deal-making process. Let's try to clear up some of the confusion.

Dealer holdback is a percentage of either the MSRP or invoice price of a new vehicle (depending on the manufacturer) that is repaid to the dealer by the manufacturer. The holdback is designed to supplement the dealer's cash flow and indirectly reduce "variable sales expenses" (code words for sales commissions) by artificially elevating the dealership's paper cost.

Contrary to what some consumers think, the holdback itself can't really be used as a bargaining chip. However, knowing about it might help you get a better deal on a new car. How? Well, first here's a little background:

Dealerships must have an inventory on hand so that consumers can browse and ultimately select a vehicle. Dealerships must pay for this inventory when it is obtained from the manufacturer, and the amount it pays is the price reflected on the invoice from the manufacturer to the dealer, the so-called "invoice price."

Now the twist: with the introduction of holdbacks some years ago, most manufacturers inflated the invoice prices for every vehicle by a predetermined amount (2-3% of MSRP is typical). The dealer pays that inflated amount when it buys the car from the manufacturer. But later, at predetermined times (usually quarterly), the manufacturer reimburses the dealer for that excess amount. This is the "holdback," so named because funds are "held back" by the manufacturer and released only some time after the vehicle is invoiced to the dealership.

Why the sleight-of-hand you might ask? Because holdbacks can benefit dealers in three ways:

Dealerships borrow money to finance cars based on an invoiced amount that includes the holdback. So the higher the invoiced amount, the more the dealership can borrow from its lender.

Inflating the dealership's "cost" can have the effect of increasing profit, since sales personnel are paid commissions based on the "gross profit" of each sale. Holdbacks have the effect of lowering the gross profit and thus the sales commissions.

Holdbacks enable dealerships to advertise "invoice price" sales and sell their vehicles at or near invoice and still make hundreds of dollars on the transaction.

This holdback amount is "invisible" to the consumer because it does not appear as an itemized fee on the window sticker. For example, let's say you're interested in a Chevrolet with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $20,500, including optional equipment and a $500 destination charge. Let's also say that dealer invoice on this hypothetical Chevy is $18,000. The cost of the car includes a dealer holdback that, in the case of all Chevy vehicles, amounts to 3% of the MSRP, or $600. (Note that the $500 destination charge should not be included when computing the holdback.) So, on this particular Chevy, the true dealer cost is actually $17,400. Even if the dealer sells you the car for the invoice price, which is unlikely, he would still be making as much as $600 on the deal (when his quarterly check from GM arrives).

Dealer holdback allows dealers to advertise attractive sales. Often, ads promise that your new car will cost you just "$1 over/under invoice!"

Almost all dealerships consider holdback money "sacred" and are unwilling to share any portion of it with the consumer. Don't push the issue. Your best strategy is to avoid mentioning the holdback during negotiations. Mention holdback only if the dealer gives you some song-and-dance about not making any money on the proposed deal when you know that isn't true.

However, there are many other holdback-types of dealer credits, such as flooring assistance, wholesale credits, advertising credits, etc. In addition, the dealer stands to reap further benefits if there is "dealer cash" being offered by the manufacturer on the car you are considering. In many instances you can learn about dealer cash in our Incentives and Rebates section. However, unless you know all of these other fees (and who does?), establishing the dealer's true cost can be frustratingly elusive. It's for this reason that Edmunds.com has established True Market Value pricing that accurately reflects "what others are paying" by taking into account all of these fees. The Edmunds.com True Market Value Price is the "bottom line" and what you really need to know in order to negotiate a fair deal. Check it out at: http://www.edmunds.com/tmv/new/.

In summary, holdback is nice to know, but is just one small piece of a complex puzzle.

Domestic manufacturers (Ford, General Motors and the Chrysler half of DaimlerChrysler) generally offer dealers a holdback equaling 3% of the total sticker price ( MSRP) of the car. Foreign manufacturers (Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen etc.) provide varying holdback amounts that are equal to a percentage of total MSRP, base MSRP, total invoice or base invoice, as indicated in the list below.
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Old 07-12-2008, 02:33 AM   #72
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I never said mark up.
I’m playing Devils Advocate here… I noticed you said “no mark up on all order out Camaros”. Does that mean the first wave of Camaro you’re allocated are going to be marked up??? Just trying to read between the lines on the small print at the bottom of the page…
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:19 AM   #73
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another thing that has always bugged me.....destination charges. If you go to the Chevy website you will get the MSRP that includes destination charges. Why is it when you buy from the dealer they add on destination charges again?
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:37 AM   #74
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Wow, this thread has taken a major turn in the wrong direction.

The dealership that I work at has built its reputation by making sure that we take care of our customers. We are a top 10 Chevy dealer, and have led the Nation the last 3 years in pre-owned GM Certified vehicles sold. That doesn't happen by accident. Yes people do spend more money at times to do business here, but they know our reputation and know that they will be very well taken care of. We have over 2000 vehicles on 32 acres. Our owner just received a key to the city. We are far from the enemy.

Bottom line is this: V6 and "normal" V8's will not be sold for over sticker. I have no concrete information about what type of market adjustment would be made, if any, on limited availablilty (don't even know if there will be anything). I do know that when we have had limited edition vehicles (Indy Pace Cars, 427 badged Z06, and ZR1's) that we have "asked" for more than MSRP. Do we always get it? NO! Is there anything wrong with asking for it? Not in my opinion.

As far as allotments go. If we are allotted 50, and we have a list of 75, then the 1st 50 people with deposits have the 1st shot to buy a vehicle. I don't see how there is anything wrong with that.
I think people on this forum are making Karl out to something he is not.
How many dealers do you think will give you MSRP when the Camaro comes out?
It's still a good deal. He was just being honest about the Z28 or whatever it will be, although it's not even confirmed yet. When that car comes out for say, 42,000$, most dealers are going to try to make 15k off of it initially. The Shelby GT500KR sold for 50,000$ above sticker initially. If the buyer is willing to pay it, the dealer should accomadate the buyer. If you don't want to pay a higher price, it won't hurt to wait a couple of months. It's just how the business works, and he's just being honest. The seller is going to try to make as much money as possible, the buyer is going to try to make as much savings as possible, and they make a comprimise.

As for the allotments, that is sort of shady unless you tell them what could happen with the allotments.
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Old 07-14-2008, 07:09 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLER74Z28 View Post
I’m playing Devils Advocate here… I noticed you said “no mark up on all order out Camaros”. Does that mean the first wave of Camaro you’re allocated are going to be marked up??? Just trying to read between the lines on the small print at the bottom of the page…
My reference to a possible Z28 edition.....someone saying "we'll this car would typically have an additional $5000 mark up...."

Again, this is THEIR dealership.

I would guess our lot cars would be held very firm to MSRP. But then again, if all our our allocation is sold via the internet on order outs - I don't see the Camaro sitting idle on our lots for quite some time.
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