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Old 11-05-2009, 10:54 PM   #18
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I have spent alot of time researching this issue and can not find any evidence GM can tell if you have HAD a tune or not. The calibration verification numbers go back to stock numbers when the factory tune is programed back into the PCM.GM wants to see a snapshot of the CVN's to see if they match the calibration numbers so they can decide whether or not the numbers are GM released or not and decide to warranty or not based on that information, not because they can "see" something the dealer tech can't. Also there is not an active flash counter on the PCM.Iave not done a tune on one but do have a customer that used a Hypertech max Energy to turn of AFM. I see no reason his warranty should be voided because of this. I'm sure there are many of these cars that are abused way more than his that have a stock tune. IMHO if you are abusing your car with or without a tune you should loose your power train warranty. You know you have to pay to play, right?
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by GaryTucker View Post
I also beg to differ...it isn't what the tech can see at the dealership...it is what GM can see when the dealership is REQUIRED to send the computer upload to them. My guess is that there is alot more going on "behind the scenes" that the techs can't even see. When you have a powertrain failure...it seems that GM is requiring an upload on nearly every one that happens. If GM couldn't see anything more than the techs...the really wouldn't need this as a screenshot printout would suffice.
Can you show me where GM REQUIRES anything, before drivetrain warranty work can be done? The only bulletin that i've seen, addressing this issue, says they are required ONLY if the dealer wishes to document the case which I assume means they want to deny warranty work. Now if something else has come out, i'd like to see it.

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,
3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L
Gas Powered Engines Only

Models: 2006–2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2006–2009 HUMMER H2, H3
Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

1. Go to TIS2WEB
2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
3. Enter VIN
4. Select "Get Cal ID"
5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
6. Select "Next"
7. Select "Complete History"
8. Print
9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®
10. Plug in the Tech 2®
11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
12. Select "Powertrain"
13. Select "Engine"
14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"
15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

So if everyone can agree that the flash counter is disabled and if putting the stock tune back in wipes all traces of the "tune", then it's safe to say they can't see it at the dealership. It appears as though you don't have to send the ECU in, just the CVN's, so how is GM suppose to see anything from a report that the dealer can't see?

Last edited by axis; 11-06-2009 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:47 AM   #20
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Now that makes sense. If a tuned car goes in for a broken transmission the CVN will not match. GM then wants to see the data to determine what was tuned. If you only tuned out AFM or adjusted the CEL for your long tube headers and left all torque management, etc the same as stock there is no reason GM can deny your warranty. They just want to know if you tuned out the safety factors for the drivetrain.
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:01 AM   #21
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Lets muddy the waters even more...

Let say I have minor mods and I want to get a dyno tune. I take it to my favorite tuner and the results are minimal. I decide that the +6 hp is not worth risking my warranty and have the stock tune put back on right then and there.
Following the logic of some of the posters, I'm screwed. My warranty is now void! Really???
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:34 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by axis View Post
Can you show me where GM REQUIRES anything, before drivetrain warranty work can be done? The only bulletin that i've seen, addressing this issue, says they are required ONLY if the dealer wishes to document the case which I assume means they want to deny warranty work. Now if something else has come out, i'd like to see it.

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,
3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L
Gas Powered Engines Only

Models: 2006–2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2006–2009 HUMMER H2, H3
Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

1. Go to TIS2WEB
2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
3. Enter VIN
4. Select "Get Cal ID"
5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
6. Select "Next"
7. Select "Complete History"
8. Print
9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®
10. Plug in the Tech 2®
11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
12. Select "Powertrain"
13. Select "Engine"
14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"
15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

So if everyone can agree that the flash counter is disabled and if putting the stock tune back in wipes all traces of the "tune", then it's safe to say they can't see it at the dealership. It appears as though you don't have to send the ECU in, just the CVN's, so how is GM suppose to see anything from a report that the dealer can't see?
I'm guessing it depends on the situation and the dealer...but really, will you know that you've got the right dealer at the right time when you take in your car. GM is cracking down on warranty fraud as it has increased as dealers have struggled to make ends meet during these lean times. If a customer comes in with "xxx" problem and I can turn it from a $100 bill to GM into a $1000 bill with GM I can pay my bills. This is what has driven GM to ask for verification.

When I was a tech, I found that it was safer to document everything because you never knew when you were going to be the "lucky" one to get to answer questions on an audit from the regional service person. If you couldn't prove your situation...guess what...the dealer ate it. It's much like that now, GM may require the dealer to call in for approval for certain repairs...and that approval usually requires screen shots.

We had this happen in the early days of the LS-1 in the F-Body...remember how they were bending pushrods? We had to document the hell out of those engine replacements as the cost to GM was pretty extreme.

I'm not trying to say that GM is looking at EVERY repair...but it truly is a luck of the draw and I don't know that I'd want to play those odds. Usually at the point you find out you are denied, they are pretty far into whatever they are looking at and you are stuck with fix it there on your dime or pick up your car in boxes, pay tear down time and go somewhere else.
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:36 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Davis View Post
Lets muddy the waters even more...

Let say I have minor mods and I want to get a dyno tune. I take it to my favorite tuner and the results are minimal. I decide that the +6 hp is not worth risking my warranty and have the stock tune put back on right then and there.
Following the logic of some of the posters, I'm screwed. My warranty is now void! Really???
Potentially.

No one can say 100% for sure. That is the issue here. We have tuners claiming GM can't tell you've untuned your car and others, like myself, that believe that there are probably some things that the tuners may not be able to see. No one has proven anything either way...no matter what they tell you. It comes down to the fact of whether you've got the money to gamble on losing your powertrain warranty. If you don't...then don't mess with mods.
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:56 PM   #24
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This has been beat to death and back. The problem I see is people who REALLY don't know are injecting opinion that only serves to confuse. I gotta believe the reputable tuners have a pretty good idea whats going on but the bottom line is if you're worried or can't pay for a rejected warranty repair DON'T TUNE!

The service manager at my dealer said a CAI would'nt void the powertrain warranty and neither would a cat back exhaust and those two mods made mine run a lot better so stick with whats safe and enjoy the ride!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:06 PM   #25
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Its funny that doing something good for your car can void your warranty. Once a tune is correctly set the motor runs more efficiently with less chance of a problem. Ig GM was smart they would introduce a tuning service...

But whatever it just sucks... and im just venting...:seesaw:
I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:11 PM   #26
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I don't get how my car has been subjected to any undo stresses and subsequently have my warranty declined if the ONLY thing I had changed was the AFM taken out. So what if I lose some MPG, that affects my wallet not GM's(environmentalist sit back down). Is it fair to me if a claim is denied that actually was legit?
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Its funny that doing something good for your car can void your warranty. Once a tune is correctly set the motor runs more efficiently with less chance of a problem. Ig GM was smart they would introduce a tuning service...

But whatever it just sucks... and im just venting...
I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........
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Dude, every motor is different... GM makes the tune so broad that it can handle variances in engine performance. Once your car is tuned by a pro, he can make the parameters alot closer to the specs that your engine is commanding...


Do you even know what a tune is?
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:13 PM   #28
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This has been beat to death and back. The problem I see is people who REALLY don't know are injecting opinion that only serves to confuse. I gotta believe the reputable tuners have a pretty good idea whats going on but the bottom line is if you're worried or can't pay for a rejected warranty repair DON'T TUNE!

The service manager at my dealer said a CAI would'nt void the powertrain warranty and neither would a cat back exhaust and those two mods made mine run a lot better so stick with whats safe and enjoy the ride!!!!!!!!!

thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:18 PM   #29
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btw, sorry for blowing up i just hate when people directly attack my intelligence....
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:30 PM   #30
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thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.
Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?
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Old 11-06-2009, 03:53 PM   #31
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I bet there are tuners out there with the same educational degree and maybe even higher, than those working at GM and reading computer mambo-jambo has become second nature to them. I know a guy who is an awesome tuner dealing mainly with Mustangs and this guy quit his job as a mechanical engineer, opened his speed shop, and can read data and tune cars with the best of them.
Oh yeah, he says he would never tell a customer that a tune can be deleted and never be detected by the manufacturer. He put it simply, "think about your personal computer, you press delete, you don't see the stuff anymore but we know the crap you deleted is still there. It just takes someone with know how and look at the hidden tables to see it. There may or maybe not be other tables I can see that only the manufacturer can see, I don't know that and no tuner can say 100% they see and know everything. But you can bet your car if Ford (or GM) engineers wanted to investigate a car's computer, they'll see what they are looking for. "
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:30 PM   #32
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btw, sorry for blowing up i just hate when people directly attack my intelligence....
Who attacked your intelligence? Hoping you aren't thinking it was me. The guys who know me here know I don't do that.

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Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?
I am a Validation Manager at General Motors. I work with the teams to develop the Validation Plan for new programs and to define and content goes on the MILLIONS of dollars of prototypes that it takes to properly calibrate a powertrain. Further, I anther Manger from my group on our Hybrids. You want to talk about a calibration nightmare. And one of my oldest friends works for Ford in the Dyno where they do the preliminary calibration where hundreds of hours of Dyno work and computer simulation are used before you can even drop the engine into a car and drive it.

So, yes, I have a pretty good idea on what it takes to calibrate a powertrain and a pretty good idea what tests and evaluations are done over several YEARS to get it right.

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I bet there are tuners out there with the same educational degree and maybe even higher, than those working at GM and reading computer mambo-jambo has become second nature to them. I know a guy who is an awesome tuner dealing mainly with Mustangs and this guy quit his job as a mechanical engineer, opened his speed shop, and can read data and tune cars with the best of them.
Oh yeah, he says he would never tell a customer that a tune can be deleted and never be detected by the manufacturer. He put it simply, "think about your personal computer, you press delete, you don't see the stuff anymore but we know the crap you deleted is still there. It just takes someone with know how and look at the hidden tables to see it. There may or maybe not be other tables I can see that only the manufacturer can see, I don't know that and no tuner can say 100% they see and know everything. But you can bet your car if Ford (or GM) engineers wanted to investigate a car's computer, they'll see what they are looking for. "
Not higher, but I am quite confident there are good technical folks out there working on tunes. Yep, I'm sure there are. And I'm sure some are absolutely brilliant and GM would be better to have them. They just don't have the resources, manpower and equipment to do what GM does (and it isn't just GM by the way, all OEMs). Do they have a PG? One in the desert and another in the cold frigid North? Hot and Cold chamber dynos? Multiple grades for stop/start, trailering? What they do have that GM doesn't is the benefit of not having to worry about FE or Emissions or Warranty.

I have no problem with the guys getting mods on their cars. I just try to explain why you shouldn't epxect GM to warranty your car if you do modify it and yes, I get defensive when you guys make claims that your "tune" makes your car better (especially more durable.........not). It might make more HP and if that is your deffinition of better, cool. But any OEM optimizes the powertrain calibration on a wide range of requirements. You are focussing HP. I've said it before and I'll say it again..............if there were some magic formula that resulted in HP and Fuel Economy and it met emissions, it would already be in your car. There are engineers that do nothing but optimize these calibrations.

GM provides a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on your powertrain. That warranty is based on millions of dollars spent to engineer and validate the car under the conditions it is delivered to you. You can't expect any company to warranty a product when you modify it outside those boundry conditions.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:01 PM   #33
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Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?

just a couple of people that actually wrote the programming for the Camaro's ecu. and I'm not saying the tuners dont know a lot. I know they do know a massive amount on tuning. but some of them are claiming to know more than they do when it comes to this ECU.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:02 PM   #34
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Thanks number 3. A lot of consumers just don't understand the Validation process: Design, Testing, Expected Results, Pass/Fail, Deviations, etc. aspects that are done/met/passed before putting this type of product out there. Many think you just slap and engine and tranny together, tie them to a module, install some cats and mufflers to meet those requirements, and it is done. VALIDATION is a huge pain but necessary.
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