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Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission Tune and diagnostics for engines and auto transmission.

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Old 11-08-2009, 08:38 PM   #51
GaryTucker
 
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Originally Posted by axis View Post
What were the circumstance behind the vette's being denied? There's always 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs, then the truth. I have seen 4th gens and vettes taken into service with the nitrous solenoids mounted to the firewall and loped like sombitch when they fired it up, yet performed tranny service UNDER WARRANTY. It has a lot to do with the dealer you choose to do service with.
The dealer that is "free-playing" with warranty claims will eventually get "caught" and you may be the lucky one whose car is sitting there when this happens. The circumstances of the Vette denials were pretty simple...tuned car trashes a part...goes to dealer...GM happens to request a snapshot of the ECM...warranty denied.

ANY dealer that does warranty service on the powertrain of the cars you've mentioned is truly on borrowed time...especially in the lean days we are in. I wouldn't be suprised to see manufacturers "spot-checking" dealerships as they tighten their belt financially. This will lead to even tighter standards to keep warranty costs down.

I'm not saying that every vehicle with a tune is going to get caught-I'm saying the odds are going up and that people that choose to mod need to realize this fact. 5 years ago...I wouldn't have thought twice about tunes...today, the manufacturers are being forced by financial situations to be more discerning about controlling improper warranty work.
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by hot ss View Post
dirt in the outter belt moulding = dodge crap? unrealistic end user.
Absolutly so. When you rolled the window up and down it put a LOT of pressure on the molding. I have a 1080i video of it. This over time warped the shape of the molding creating a ledge for dirt to catch/rest on. The window trim literally turned into a arch. After dirt was trapped on there, when you rolled the windows down it was sucked/pulled into the window track. I have 26 scratches vertically up and down the passenger side window. 3 on the drivers side. They did, eventually, fix the problem. After I made it 100% clear, with testing and a lawyer, that I was not going away.

Or it was a FLAWED DESIGN that they didn't want to pay for. Many people have the same issue with their Dodge.

Originally:

|
|\

Over Time:

|. <-- DIRT
|(
^^
| L TRIM
L WINDOW


Still, best to have a Good Name and Good Product. I am always 100% fair in a deal. I screw no one - EVER. If it wasn't thier fault I would have never asked it be warranty repaired. I almost didn't anyways because I knew Dodge was shister!
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Old 11-09-2009, 12:50 AM   #53
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Yeah right. Lets put this in perspective. GM, in 1980's, could BUY AND SELL the GDP of every country in the world except the G20 members. Today, they LOOSE MONEY ON EVERY CAR THEY SELL. They are weak and government subsidised.

This idea of screwing your base, your customer, is a flawed idea. I can afford this car, at 27, because I have devoted my life to making a good work product. I make things for customers and I stand by my work. I make it work even if it means that I don't make money on that job. Even if I loose money. I have very little in this life, my WORD is by far the most valuable. I have been ripped off many times too. No one person ever got me twice. For the honor of serving the whole world with a product I would gladly let everyone screw me once. Most people are honorable and try to keep their things nice. Most people care. That's business. This new age economic style management crap is for the birds and it has destroyed this nation. This down sizing micro managing good enough attitude leads to a bunch of Walmart crap that no one made any money off of and no one cares about. Most imporantly none of it works or lasts more than 6 months.

If GM would have never tried to compete with a far inferior product and kept all the old timers (poke poke) that swore they would never buy anything but American they wouldn't be in this mess. You can't screw your customer and expect a resell. There are also only SO MANY FIRST TIME BUYERS. PERIOD. Only a sucker would fall into a race to the bottom and GM was that sucker!

If you can't honor your word then don't give it. If you cannot sell a 400hp muscle car with a warranty then don't do it. Don't sell someone a car that by EVERY DEFINITION is made to GO FAST AND HARD, then tell people you went TOO FAST TOO HARD. That is bullshit. Now watch that bottom line - FALL!

So this is my first GM car. I bought it because it had 400hp. I bought it because it is a CAMARO known WORLD WIDE as one of the fastest production cars in the world, especially for the money. I expect a well rounded working car that is stable and a pleasure to drive. I expect all contracts to be honored fairly and equitable. If they sell a stock model in 2 years with 700hp and a supercharger then I expect I can put the same stock parts and make that mod. If I am failed in this manner then this is the first and last GM car I buy. Someone will get it right and that is the company I will buy from time and time again - for a life time.

In fact, EACH GM warranty should include 2 engines and 2 trannies with NO QUESTIONS ASKED. GM would do much better to look at making money off people rather than A CAR. In my lifetime, at the rate I have currently bought cars, I will spend an additional $364,800 on vehicles by the time I am 65. Better to loose $17,000 on 1 transmission than $348,000 on that same tranny.

To be clear, I will NEVER buy another Dodge, Chrysler, or Jeep vehicle again because of this. 2 weeks after I bought a 2008 Dodge Avenger they came out with an unlimited lifetime warranty. I was excluded. Their reason? That was a program to attract new buyers, I had already bought the car so they didn't need to worry about the fact that they made me feel like I got ripped off. Then after owning the car for 2 years, the window glass started scratching every time it went up and down because of the defective window trim. They claimed "Environmental Conditions" and I traded the car in. I now Claim they make crap. I will forever discourage people from buying a Dodge. They are now never going to sell me another car. I have had 4 jeeps and 1 car from them and have spent at least $65,000 on their cars. They have lost out on the $364,800! I buy a new car every 1-3 years. I know it is a "waste" of money. Don't care. I like new cars. I never lease ALWAYS BUY.

Ya know what I mean? We're the damn customer. Their whole reason for existence, and somehow your acting like we need to bend to their rules? You have all the power in the world with your ability to choose, and your giving it up for? What? You act like we HAVE to buy GM.

You're forgetting the fact that they are standing behind their product 100%, the way they built it. They are standing behind it 5yr/100k miles. No one suggested that they aren't, as long as YOU don't mod it. NO CAR COMPANY will maintain a warranty on a car that YOU modded. While most will do it professionally, many won't and you can't quality control individuals. Instead of having the dealers try to decide what is acceptable and what isn't, it's easier to just say NO MODDING. I think you have a unrealistic view of how car manufacturers do business. If Jannety, Hennesy, or any of the others builds you a highly modded engine and you blow a rod out the side from too much nitrous or too much boost, do you really think they are gonna cover it? HELL NO they won't. They will warranty for a while, not 5yrs/100k miles, on parts defects and installation but won't cover you for screwing up a tune and running lean or running a massive amount of nitrous. It would be nice if companies would let us do whatever we want to our cars and still cover them under warranty but it's unrealistic to expect that. If you HONESTLY thought GM would let you do all that, you can add them to the list of companies you'll never buy from again.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:07 AM   #54
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Well that's different

I am talking about factory available mods, computer mods, and air intakes. Or, as I would call them, efficiency mods. The super charger
example was if GM decided to sell one later. If they can sell it on one car, you can put it on another! Period. (Assuming the same tranny/heads/etc.)

Also, the way my car is currently driving I have EVERY RIGHT IN THE WORLD TO TUNE IT. There is no freakin way this rig is putting out 400hp! I bought a 400 hp car and the clunker is MAYBE putting out 315! We will know for sure later, I plan to wait another 500-1000 miles and have it dyno'd.

Its cool, if you want GM to dictate to you how to do business, you can end up in the new GM showroom floor that isn't staffed, can't test drive the cars, and order everything through their touchscreen computer - all to save costs while the fat guy at the top takes home $15.7 million. Or, 373 fold that of the average worker/YOU. If you wanna be a smuck.. (Don't believe me? See the Walmart checkout stands!)

Bottom line they made a car for a consumer. The consumer wants something that GOES FAST. Why else are they marketing 400hp and 4.7 0-60? How bout that speedometer that goes to 180mph.. what good is that @ the maximum legal road speed of 75? If they don't want to deliver, then DON'T DO IT! Don't sell it with a warranty then. I don't care. Wouldn't have bought it but maybe someone else would. Whatever you do just don't come up with bullshit excuses of why your customer is not included when really you had a lacking product. Sure if the guy uses too much nitrous and melts the engine THAT IS VERY EASILY DETERMINED. If the engine ran too lean or too rich, THAT IS EASILY DETERMINED. Either the damn car IS or IS NOT there. The rest = bullshit excuses for failure. Also, the reason why the country is no longer #1 in anything but expenditures on nothing. We pay the most for the worst performing systems and can't even figure out where it went.

A FREAK'IN $40,000 FACTORY BUILT MUSCLE CAR WITH 400 HP SHOULD NOT BREAK WHEN YOU HIT THE DAMN GAS PEDDLE! It should be as strong at the $40,000 1966 Camaro built by Rod the Red Neck in his garage. Believe me I have seen some WELL built rigs and they didn't cost that much to build and they kicked the shit out of this thing.

Don't take me wrong, I get a bit excited, but its a fun/interesting debate.

Last edited by Temper; 11-09-2009 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:54 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by axis View Post
It's just a drive train computer, not some super secret module that holds the access codes to the long range nuclear missiles. Programs can be accessed and subsystems can be accessed, despite what the "GM programmers" told you. If they can access it, I can guarantee you that others can. Despite that, it really doesn't matter if you can access those subsystems anyway. All they're doing is tweaking the stock tune and putting it back in. It's not like they are rewriting a brand new engine management program, although i'm sure many of them could do just that.

It all comes down to whether or not GM can tell if you've swapped a "cooked" tune in and then reverted back to OEM. If they don't have a WORKING counter to tell if it's been swapped, then they can't. Do you have proof that the GM engineer can figure it out? How many of these "GM engineers" are out there? They're gonna have to have a shit load of them to go all around the country checking ECUs. I think you either give them too much credit or the private sector too little. If you ghost the stock tune out, then put it back in, it's EXACTLY the way it was when it was taken out and will match all the CVN codes perfectly. If you go by the bulletin that GM put out, as long as the CVN codes match, it's OEM.


Very well said. To those of you who believe that you have to sacrifice fuel economy for performance, then I'd ask you to talk to one of our 800+ TBSS/G8/2010 owners and ask them where there extra 2-3 MPG came from. We have NEVER had a warranty denied beacuse of a tune being detected from removing it and replacing it with a factory calibration.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Alvin View Post
You got to pay to play just like anything else. The thing is the dealer has to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure. So if you tune a PCM they can't say thats the reason why your fuel pump quit, or your radio isn't working anymore.

Any tune is ulimately visible to GM. Period.

I'm not sure if the people who advertise "stealth tunes" have thought about legal issues. I'm no expert but it seems not to be a good idea to deliberately cheat your warranty contract. It seems like it could constitute fraud
The " Stealth Locked tune " will leave a tech questioning why he can not write to the ECM/TCM for software revision ... an unlocked tune will alow them to write as normal [ no they arn't looking a cvn numbers in most cases ] This happens more then youd think or are lead to believe ... If something happens to your drivetrain what are you going to do swap out a ECM ? reload a stock tune ? no in most cases you call onstar and have them pick it up of the side of the road ... but this is all realitive to what happens ... FYI we reflash to stock if the customer asks but I have never had a calim denied with my tune in the car ...
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:19 AM   #57
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Never have and never will...two very different things maybe.

This is the "new" GM in a time of economic trouble. Back in the "good" days...GM could afford to overlook violations of warranty terms (way back you were happy to have 12months/12,000 miles...then we increased all the way up to 36months/36,000 miles and warranty costs increased)...now we are at 5yr/100,000 miles...so we KNOW that warranty costs are going to go up. One way to control costs is to deny warranty claims that are in violation of terms.

I'm not against tuning or any other modification to cars...I just think the average newbie is being misled by many companies when they say "nah, this won't void your warranty-Magnuson/Moss covers ya" or "just pull the tune out before you take it in." That's all well and good in a perfect world, but I think everyone, including GM, is operating a little more aware of their surroundings after the last year.

For the record, I'm not saying any sponsors of this forum are misleading customers. There are quite a few "tuners" out there that don't know their *ss from an OBDII connector...One in Oklahoma isn't in business anymore thank goodness! These are the tuners that are really risking their customer's money.

I do think it would be smart for any tuner doing what I'd call "basic" tunes for cars with no other modifications (looking for that 'free' horsepower we all know is there from the factory) to inform their customers that this could result in a voiding of their powertrain warranty. I'd think in today's litigious society it would be good sense.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:42 AM   #58
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Never have and never will...two very different things maybe.

This is the "new" GM in a time of economic trouble. Back in the "good" days...GM could afford to overlook violations of warranty terms (way back you were happy to have 12months/12,000 miles...then we increased all the way up to 36months/36,000 miles and warranty costs increased)...now we are at 5yr/100,000 miles...so we KNOW that warranty costs are going to go up. One way to control costs is to deny warranty claims that are in violation of terms.

I'm not against tuning or any other modification to cars...I just think the average newbie is being misled by many companies when they say "nah, this won't void your warranty-Magnuson/Moss covers ya" or "just pull the tune out before you take it in." That's all well and good in a perfect world, but I think everyone, including GM, is operating a little more aware of their surroundings after the last year.

For the record, I'm not saying any sponsors of this forum are misleading customers. There are quite a few "tuners" out there that don't know their *ss from an OBDII connector...One in Oklahoma isn't in business anymore thank goodness! These are the tuners that are really risking their customer's money.

I do think it would be smart for any tuner doing what I'd call "basic" tunes for cars with no other modifications (looking for that 'free' horsepower we all know is there from the factory) to inform their customers that this could result in a voiding of their powertrain warranty. I'd think in today's litigious society it would be good sense.
Well said.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:56 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Temper View Post

Also, the way my car is currently driving I have EVERY RIGHT IN THE WORLD TO TUNE IT. There is no freakin way this rig is putting out 400hp! I bought a 400 hp car and the clunker is MAYBE putting out 315! We will know for sure later, I plan to wait another 500-1000 miles and have it dyno'd.



A FREAK'IN $40,000 FACTORY BUILT MUSCLE CAR WITH 400 HP SHOULD NOT BREAK WHEN YOU HIT THE DAMN GAS PEDDLE! It should be as strong at the $40,000 1966 Camaro built by Rod the Red Neck in his garage. .

You have every right to do whatever you want to your car. No one is stopping you from that. The subject is, if you mod your car and your car breaks, dealer may or may not repair it under warranty.

How do you know your car is only making 315? Have you measure it at the flywheel. The 400hp adverstised for the L99 is the # at the flywheel, not RWHP. If you are getting 315 at the rear wheels, then that is about right for the advertised 400flywheel hp and automatic tranny.


All cars break, $10k car or a $250k car. The argument is whether GM should repair your modded car when it breaks. I just don't understand why people choose to mod their car but are unprepared to deal with consequences.

Plain and simple, if you can't afford to pay the cost to play, stay stock!
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:04 PM   #60
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You have every right to do whatever you want to your car. No one is stopping you from that. The subject is, if you mod your car and your car breaks, dealer may or may not repair it under warranty.

How do you know your car is only making 315? Have you measure it at the flywheel. The 400hp adverstised for the L99 is the # at the flywheel, not RWHP. If you are getting 315 at the rear wheels, then that is about right for the advertised 400flywheel hp and automatic tranny.


All cars break, $10k car or a $250k car. The argument is whether GM should repair your modded car when it breaks. I just don't understand why people choose to mod their car but are unprepared to deal with consequences.

Plain and simple, if you can't afford to pay the cost to play, stay stock!
First of all, EVEN IF YOU STAY 100% stock it is still very possible the company will claim "ABUSE" or some other bullshit to keep them from paying. Dodge, can simply claim that while it is broken, they don't believe it is from a "factory defect" meaning they still don't have to fix it. They are also the supreme decider on what constitutes a factory defect.

Second, if the mod does not alter the machine to the point of exceeding FACTORY SPECIFICATIONS then the warranty should cover it PERIOD. And yes it should be on GM to prove this before they get to walk out on THIER CONTRACT.

All this other non-sense is either GM workers flooding the forum with crap (propaganda) or really delusional people.

So where does this argument that your trying to make end?
Should GM be able to restrict your gas use to say, Only Shell Gas?
How about only GM staff can change the oil or its void?
Only factory tires (make/model/size) can be used?
Only factory rims?
Only GM approved air filters? (No K&Ns either)
Only GM replacement parts for break pads, rotors, clutch, etc?

This can get a lot dumber too. The main point is that screw that which sustains your life and you will cease to exist. GM has proven that!
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:10 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Temper View Post
I am talking about factory available mods, computer mods, and air intakes. Or, as I would call them, efficiency mods. The super charger
example was if GM decided to sell one later. If they can sell it on one car, you can put it on another! Period. (Assuming the same tranny/heads/etc.)

Also, the way my car is currently driving I have EVERY RIGHT IN THE WORLD TO TUNE IT. There is no freakin way this rig is putting out 400hp! I bought a 400 hp car and the clunker is MAYBE putting out 315! We will know for sure later, I plan to wait another 500-1000 miles and have it dyno'd.

Its cool, if you want GM to dictate to you how to do business, you can end up in the new GM showroom floor that isn't staffed, can't test drive the cars, and order everything through their touchscreen computer - all to save costs while the fat guy at the top takes home $15.7 million. Or, 373 fold that of the average worker/YOU. If you wanna be a smuck.. (Don't believe me? See the Walmart checkout stands!)

Bottom line they made a car for a consumer. The consumer wants something that GOES FAST. Why else are they marketing 400hp and 4.7 0-60? How bout that speedometer that goes to 180mph.. what good is that @ the maximum legal road speed of 75? If they don't want to deliver, then DON'T DO IT! Don't sell it with a warranty then. I don't care. Wouldn't have bought it but maybe someone else would. Whatever you do just don't come up with bullshit excuses of why your customer is not included when really you had a lacking product. Sure if the guy uses too much nitrous and melts the engine THAT IS VERY EASILY DETERMINED. If the engine ran too lean or too rich, THAT IS EASILY DETERMINED. Either the damn car IS or IS NOT there. The rest = bullshit excuses for failure. Also, the reason why the country is no longer #1 in anything but expenditures on nothing. We pay the most for the worst performing systems and can't even figure out where it went.

A FREAK'IN $40,000 FACTORY BUILT MUSCLE CAR WITH 400 HP SHOULD NOT BREAK WHEN YOU HIT THE DAMN GAS PEDDLE! It should be as strong at the $40,000 1966 Camaro built by Rod the Red Neck in his garage. Believe me I have seen some WELL built rigs and they didn't cost that much to build and they kicked the shit out of this thing.

Don't take me wrong, I get a bit excited, but its a fun/interesting debate.
What country are you from???

Name me a SINGLE car company or performance shop that allows you to tweak their product how YOU see fit, yet will still cover it under warranty.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:57 PM   #62
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I didn't say ANY WAY I WANTED. I said WITHIN FACTORY SPECS. EACH ITEM IN THE CAR IS DESIGNED AND BUILT TO EXACT FACTORY SPECS OF THE LIMITS OF TORQUE/STRESS IT SHOULD HANDLE. Upgrades to available FACTORY CONFIGURATIONS. And alter parameters and tuning to allow for MY TASTES.

Like, to add a borla exhaust to make the car sound more to my choosing.
Tune out the variable cylinder/displacement stuff. Maybe alter the transmission shift points.

And there are shops that will add a supercharger and sell you a warranty with that supercharger for your entire drive train. See: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31553 for a $11k supercharge 510 rwhp and a 3yr/36,000 mile warranty. ..?? I thought you said no one would do that? I never said I WAS going to mod the car. I am a computer programmer, I am going to pay a good mechanic to make the mods.

The way this whole forum starts is ANY device that modifies the computer in any NON-GM standard way will come back as modified and your warranty will be void. All it takes is a download, a screenshot, and some number matching. No match - No Repair. Like a superchips tune would really damage your engine.

All that is other stuff is bullshit. I live on plant EARTH in the United States of America. Where the people get what they want/pay for. If this isn't GM then this is my last GM car.

I mean how can you justify that they screw you on $14000 on a transmission just because you modified the computer? Especially, when you take into account the fact that with their contacts, leverage and other advantages GM does not pay even 1/2 what you would to do the same repair. That is so off the wall stupid I can't even understand your nonsense.

In the days of a carb and a wire, would they void your warranty for "tuning" the idle/linkage? NO. Hell No. The damn engine is still essentially the same damn design. You have gas, you mix it with air, you explode it, and harness the explosion's energy to do work. On an old stock car there was a carb linkage, and that controlled the gas, in what way could you move that linkage that would justify "moving it wrongly" and thereby "voiding your warranty". You just think that now, since there is a computer, and you don't understand that part and how it works, you'll just bend over and take any amount of abuse from GM while they look at nothing but how to take more of your money while giving you an inferior product.

Not only would you do that, you would be on their side as some sort of ring/cheer leader for them. You would actually believe that they have no requirement to make a machine to specs and then deliver. You also would think that it is perfectly fine that they engineer/build their vehicles to an acceptable failure rate, and if you just happened to mod a defective vehicle then you would think that you should have to pay for that defective part. Even though GM knows that a certain amount of their components WILL FAIL and they do that to MAKE MORE MONEY OFF YOU. (This is also the reason for warranties, manufacturers started lowering their machining standards to save costs and off set the customer complaints with a promise to go back and fix all the defective parts they sold.)

Now what, your going to say that you should wait to mod so that you can see if you got one of the defective parts? Whatever.
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:00 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Temper View Post
I didn't say ANY WAY I WANTED. I said WITHIN FACTORY SPECS. EACH ITEM IN THE CAR IS DESIGNED AND BUILT TO EXACT FACTORY SPECS OF THE LIMITS OF TORQUE/STRESS IT SHOULD HANDLE. Upgrades to available FACTORY CONFIGURATIONS. And alter parameters and tuning to allow for MY TASTES.

Look at your last line. TO YOUR TASTE. That's where the problem is. The rest is pefectly fine.

Like, to add a borla exhaust to make the car sound more to my choosing.
Tune out the variable cylinder/displacement stuff. Maybe alter the transmission shift points.

Once you alter the tune, you've gone beyond what the manufacturer considers "safe" for them to keep up with your warranty.

And there are shops that will add a supercharger and sell you a warranty with that supercharger for your entire drive train. See: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31553 for a $11k supercharge 510 rwhp and a 3yr/36,000 mile warranty. ..?? I thought you said no one would do that? I never said I WAS going to mod the car. I am a computer programmer, I am going to pay a good mechanic to make the mods.

I know about this company but take that supercharger, add a higher PSI pulley, throw on 150 shot of nitrous, then tune it to the bleeding edge of safety, without them knowing. Once it blows, take it back and demand they fix it for free. I can promise you, they won't.

The way this whole forum starts is ANY device that modifies the computer in any NON-GM standard way will come back as modified and your warranty will be void. All it takes is a download, a screenshot, and some number matching. No match - No Repair. Like a superchips tune would really damage your engine.

All that is other stuff is bullshit. I live on plant EARTH in the United States of America. Where the people get what they want/pay for. If this isn't GM then this is my last GM car.

I mean how can you justify that they screw you on $14000 on a transmission just because you modified the computer? Especially, when you take into account the fact that with their contacts, leverage and other advantages GM does not pay even 1/2 what you would to do the same repair. That is so off the wall stupid I can't even understand your nonsense.

In the days of a carb and a wire, would they void your warranty for "tuning" the idle/linkage? NO. Hell No. The damn engine is still essentially the same damn design. You have gas, you mix it with air, you explode it, and harness the explosion's energy to do work. On an old stock car there was a carb linkage, and that controlled the gas, in what way could you move that linkage that would justify "moving it wrongly" and thereby "voiding your warranty". You just think that now, since there is a computer, and you don't understand that part and how it works, you'll just bend over and take any amount of abuse from GM while they look at nothing but how to take more of your money while giving you an inferior product.

Not only would you do that, you would be on their side as some sort of ring/cheer leader for them. You would actually believe that they have no requirement to make a machine to specs and then deliver. You also would think that it is perfectly fine that they engineer/build their vehicles to an acceptable failure rate, and if you just happened to mod a defective vehicle then you would think that you should have to pay for that defective part. Even though GM knows that a certain amount of their components WILL FAIL and they do that to MAKE MORE MONEY OFF YOU. (This is also the reason for warranties, manufacturers started lowering their machining standards to save costs and off set the customer complaints with a promise to go back and fix all the defective parts they sold.)

Now what, your going to say that you should wait to mod so that you can see if you got one of the defective parts? Whatever.
You just don't get it so I give up. You're absolutely right, you should be able to do what you want to your car and GM should buck up and fix what you mess up for free. I hope you plan on building your own next car cause you won't find a car company that will let you do what you want, while maintaining the warranty. Hell build two and i'll buy one and mod the hell out of it under YOUR warranty. I hope you have DEEP POCKETS.
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:09 AM   #64
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Sorry, had one more thing to add.

Have you even looked at Magnussons 3yr/36k warranty?

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Limited Warranty:
Magnuson Products, Inc. warrants and will repair or replace, at our option and after inspection in our facility, any new Eaton manufactured product found defective by means of material and/or workmanship for a period of three years from invoice date. This warranty does not cover products which fail because of accident, alteration, misuse, neglect, racing, improper installation, abuse, or when used in applications for which they were not designed or approved. Removal, installation, transportation, labor, inconvenience, damage of other components, personal damage or injury and/or any injury or liability to other persons or property are not covered under this warranty. For warranty service, contact you selling dealer. Warranty for all components must be supported by the proper registration documentation including the original purchase invoice.
Care to find me another example of a great company that will allow you to do what you want to their products?
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:23 AM   #65
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even magnuson, doesnt allow you to alter their tune, so whats the difference?
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:42 AM   #66
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You just don't get it so I give up. You're absolutely right, you should be able to do what you want to your car and GM should buck up and fix what you mess up for free. I hope you plan on building your own next car cause you won't find a car company that will let you do what you want, while maintaining the warranty. Hell build two and i'll buy one and mod the hell out of it under YOUR warranty. I hope you have DEEP POCKETS.

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Sorry, had one more thing to add.

Have you even looked at Magnussons 3yr/36k warranty?



Care to find me another example of a great company that will allow you to do what you want to their products?


hey temper, you sure have a temper

you should read the Magnuson optional powertrain warranty before you make it a reference for your argument. And yes, a Magnuson Supercharger is being installed in my car, I should pick it up in a few days. And yes, I bought the optional warranty to help with the cost in case my drivetrain takes a dump. And no, I don't expect GM to cover the repairs IF they can prove damage to the drivetrain is caused by any mod I have done but it would be pretty obvious, right? and what leg would I have to stand on against them if they deny warranty claim? But I won't even bother taking my car to them if my engine blows up! You obviously would, right? Because in your belief, GM SHOULD still fix it unless they can prove that the supercharger did cause the blow up.
Okay, your example, you install an aftermarket exhaust and one day, the plastic around the exhaust ports starts to melt, you seriously have the face to go crying to a dealer to warranty the damage because you are assuming they have to prove beyond the obvious?
You said you are a computer programmer. Ok, say you have a client that paid you to program an application or whatever. It took you many man-hours to design, test, and implement the program. It worked flawlessly. The client then wanted new features to the program and hired a different programmer to re-write your program to add the "upgraded" feature. Consequently, the upgrade caused your original program to break or run poorly or caused corruption. The client brings the program back to you. You quickly determined that the upgrade caused the damage. You didn't even have to dissect the program to determine the cause and it is going to take many man-hours to rewrite or rebuild the program. Now, the client demands you fix the program on your dime because he insists the upgrade did not cause it to fail. Get the point?
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:25 AM   #67
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hey temper, you sure have a temper

you should read the Magnuson optional powertrain warranty before you make it a reference for your argument. And yes, a Magnuson Supercharger is being installed in my car, I should pick it up in a few days. And yes, I bought the optional warranty to help with the cost in case my drivetrain takes a dump. And no, I don't expect GM to cover the repairs IF they can prove damage to the drivetrain is caused by any mod I have done but it would be pretty obvious, right? and what leg would I have to stand on against them if they deny warranty claim? But I won't even bother taking my car to them if my engine blows up! You obviously would, right? Because in your belief, GM SHOULD still fix it unless they can prove that the supercharger did cause the blow up.
Okay, your example, you install an aftermarket exhaust and one day, the plastic around the exhaust ports starts to melt, you seriously have the face to go crying to a dealer to warranty the damage because you are assuming they have to prove beyond the obvious?
You said you are a computer programmer. Ok, say you have a client that paid you to program an application or whatever. It took you many man-hours to design, test, and implement the program. It worked flawlessly. The client then wanted new features to the program and hired a different programmer to re-write your program to add the "upgraded" feature. Consequently, the upgrade caused your original program to break or run poorly or caused corruption. The client brings the program back to you. You quickly determined that the upgrade caused the damage. You didn't even have to dissect the program to determine the cause and it is going to take many man-hours to rewrite or rebuild the program. Now, the client demands you fix the program on your dime because he insists the upgrade did not cause it to fail. Get the point?
First, to address you computer program example. I have been held for 3rd party failure. I did deliver - on time and within budget. I am also a controls engineer, so EVERY PLANT I do a startup on the electrical gc and other gcs change all sorts of things. I certainly would be without a job if I didn't make the changes to make it work. I have had to reprogram as many as 25% of the IO which the last system I worked on had 750. The one before that had 2500. I have even had the EGC wire something to the wrong input because it was easier for them. That meant more work for me without additional money. In fact ONE system I work on runs the ENTIRE factory making ethanol. That's every pump, valve, switch, sensor, and SAFETY! SAFETY is a huge deal - AND YOU ALWAYS GET LEFT HOLDING THE BAG. It better be 100% or someone could DIE. AND YES that INCLUDES protecting from OPERATOR ERROR. (Like sticking their hand into a saw blade while moving!) You can bet your ass that the Plant manager doesn't care about anything except that it doesn't work and your the computer guy. Nothing else matters. All is on you. How about being in a building that makes 100,000,000 gallons of PURE ETHANOL per year? One spark and the whole place can go BOOM! That means brass tools - still on you.

Second, this shows your lack of computer knowledge. Computers are REQUIRED to interop these days. If that other programmer messed up my program I designed it wrong. Think of it this way, would you be happy if Microsoft Zune broke your install of iTunes? Hell no. Still on you. Unless, he intentionally broke it, then your Microsoft and you get SUED for that.

You guys are comparing a freak'in TUNE to a SUPERCHARGER. First, __IF__ GM MAKES A FACTORY RUN CAR WITH A SUPER CHARGER, then YES I should be able to bolt those parts on to mine. They should cover it. I would OFCOURSE hire someone GM would think is competent to do the job.

You guys completely missed the analogy of the old time car with a WIRE and a CARB - in what way can you tune the idle, move the wire, or otherwise to that setup that would void the warranty? None. Not one. Cause just because it is a "computer" all the rules change. I see it every day. Tuning a carb can be just as damaging - but no computer. Too lean and you ruin the engine - too rich just the same. But they can't void your warranty just for touching it.

Like, when Napster was sued by the record companies, the court found that Napster was liable because they "provided" the means to infringe copyright violations. Well, when Libraries were sued for having COPYMACHINES, that is machines that are made to copy paper, in the library, a place filled entirely of copyrighted material, they were found not to be liable because it was the user's responsibility to abide the copyright and law. So, besides the fact that it was a nifty super duper computer with gizmos no one understands, WHAT THE HECK CHANGED? The computer allows a user to copy the song/file and the copymachine copies copyright text. Everyday even. WHY PROTECT THE LIBRARY AND DESTROY FINACIALLY THE INTERNET FILE SHARE?

Yeah, nothing. Only ignorance and attitude!

I am not talking about drastically altering the car. I am talking about tuning the characteristics of the car to the way I drive. Like turning off the variable displacement crap. That does not effect the rev limiter or the safety systems of the car. BTW, I WOULD NOT advance the rev limiter -I know some would but I wouldn't. That should all be covered, BUT AGAIN GM HAS TAKEN THE STANCE, CHANGE IT AND YOU'RE ON THE HOOK. All they do is compare some numbers - different? NO COVERAGE! I also SAID that SHOULD they DEMONSTRATE with SOME SORT OF SCIENTIFIC METHOD, that I damaged the car I should be liable. I am NOT trying to get GM to pay for my ****up - I AM HOLDING THEM TO THEIR LACK OF QUALITY ASSURANCE. When they manufacture a part they CHOOSE a rate of FAILURE based on COST. Higher the failure the less it costs them. Again, the whole reason for a warranty. That is why many of them talk about MANUFACTURER'S DEFECTS. Do YA KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? It means they messed up. That is also not what they are doing. Like, BURNT cylinder walls would be proof. They LITERALLY compare some number and boom - VOID. Well what if the computer has bad memory and so the checksum or whatever fails? Your still screwed. Do you think that THEY are going to pay the costs of proving that the computer program wasn't modified? NO. Because this is all just a ploy to make more money by ripping off a small minority while still keeping a happy majority. That way when you hear a complaint it is NOT believable because you've dealt with GM for years and hundreds of times but you never had a problem. Its like your ASSUMING that the car was perfect and the tune broke it.

SEE:

http://www.crash-worthiness.com/gene...al_motors.html
http://www.chevylemon.com/
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
http://www.automotive.com/2004/12/gm...lls/index.html
http://www.ohiolemonlaw.com/safety-r...-seat-belt.htm
1>>> http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/0...ctims-cheated/
2>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124614495545265019.html
http://www.butlerwooten.com/Practice...el-Systems.asp

Not that any of the above is gospel, just inferences to the fact that GM cars are NOT PERFECT and modding that does not excude them.

Oh, that Mitsubishi EVO (or whatever) with a button you can push to void your warranty - DEFINATELY bullshit.

So do you guys work for GM, Ford, or ? Cause you seem really behind the auto maker for no good reason! The equivalent would be you being a constitutionalists proclaiming the constitutionality of the Patriot Act!

Also, to be fair, IN ANY CONTRACT you enter into you SHOULD BE REQUIRED to abide your obligations unless you can DEMONDSTRATE non-conformance from the other party or force majeure from the state. Here, GM is playing the same game insurance companies do - they are betting that you don't (can't afford to) sue and if you do they can afford to run you broke. Your like their ring leaders! Your actually promoting this behavior. Well, I hope they claim "abuse" on your car when your tranny goes out because GM saved 4% on parts by reducing quality assurance 50%.

Yeah, I chose my handle well, TEMPER. If you wanted to know its been my handle for 15 years. Always a spot on match for me. Your not the first to notice.

Oh, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I actually just like the debate. I get a bit excited too. I don't mean anything by it. You all seem like decent people. I don't really wish you or your tranny any grief. I was just trying to make a point. I don't really know how GM handles their affairs, I know Dodge is lacking and have been left with some disdain from dealing with them.
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:34 AM   #68
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I also know that my radio doesn't quite work right and that they should have to fix that too.

And, I think they should add my phone's bluetooth phonebook to the car too. Simply as a safety thing.
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:56 AM   #69
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I know about this company but take that supercharger, add a higher PSI pulley, throw on 150 shot of nitrous, then tune it to the bleeding edge of safety, without them knowing. Once it blows, take it back and demand they fix it for free. I can promise you, they won't.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT WHAT I SAID. I said I should be able to TUNE THAT CAR. I also said that IF ____IF____ they sell the same config, that is with a higher PSI pulley, a 150 shot nitrous, and warranty, THEN I should be able to do the same to my car because it is OBVIOUSLY within factory specs. They have PROVEN it by selling that configuration WITH THE SAME WARRANTY.

I also said WITHIN MANUFACTURERS SPECS. I didn't say I should be able to exceed factory specs and it be covered. I said WITHIN TOLERANCES. I am sure that nitrous alone would exceed numerous specs including heat and pressure. So no. NOT COVERED. You broke it. Literally, and by definition, ON PURPOSE. I mean seriously, overloading and engine on purpose is to purposely BREAK IT. However, if the engine says that is can withstand 20.00 PSI, and I put a factory type supercharger and put 19.999 PSI on it then YES COVERED! PERIOD. None of this, we didn't sell it to you like that.

Like, if an elevator is rated for 15,000 lbs, and I put 14,999.9999LBS I DO EXPECT IT TO WORK! I expect it to go up and down all day long with JUST REGULAR MAINTIANCE. I do not expect them to say, "Well, you ran it at 99.99% of spec for too long..." or "You ran it too hard." or "You abused it."

See the difference? I am saying right up to your word. If you say the car has 400 hp then I want 399.99999999999999999999999999 HP. PERIOD. If not you failed and need to fix it.

I did not say one unit of measurably over. I don't even think GM should have to cover bad gas, that is the gas station's fault (if you can PROVE that AS YOU HAVE NO WARRANTY AGREEMENT WITH THEM.)

You might as well just said that I think I should be able to blow my damn car up and someone else should fix it. I did not. I said to the agreement NO MORE NO LESS.

Like, it says that my Zune should work with the car, it doesn't. That should be fixed. It also makes NO MENTION of a 2,500 song limit. So that should be removed (and as a programmer I know MANY WAYS TO DO SO, like storing the indexing on the device itself instead of internal memory).

AND YES I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE TO FIX IT UNDER THE WARRANTY. I think things should work, and they should work as prescribed. To say, well it works with the iPOD and that is good enough is UNACCEPTABLE. They advertised that it worked with both the iPOD and Zune and "Plays for Sure" devices. So ANYTHING that complies with the spec for PLAYS FOR SURE - SHOULD WORK. PERIOD.

I am so tired of this good enough or defeatist attitude.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:13 AM   #70
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Who attacked your intelligence? Hoping you aren't thinking it was me. The guys who know me here know I don't do that.



I am a Validation Manager at General Motors. I work with the teams to develop the Validation Plan for new programs and to define and content goes on the MILLIONS of dollars of prototypes that it takes to properly calibrate a powertrain. Further, I anther Manger from my group on our Hybrids. You want to talk about a calibration nightmare. And one of my oldest friends works for Ford in the Dyno where they do the preliminary calibration where hundreds of hours of Dyno work and computer simulation are used before you can even drop the engine into a car and drive it.

So, yes, I have a pretty good idea on what it takes to calibrate a powertrain and a pretty good idea what tests and evaluations are done over several YEARS to get it right.



Not higher, but I am quite confident there are good technical folks out there working on tunes. Yep, I'm sure there are. And I'm sure some are absolutely brilliant and GM would be better to have them. They just don't have the resources, manpower and equipment to do what GM does (and it isn't just GM by the way, all OEMs). Do they have a PG? One in the desert and another in the cold frigid North? Hot and Cold chamber dynos? Multiple grades for stop/start, trailering? What they do have that GM doesn't is the benefit of not having to worry about FE or Emissions or Warranty.

I have no problem with the guys getting mods on their cars. I just try to explain why you shouldn't epxect GM to warranty your car if you do modify it and yes, I get defensive when you guys make claims that your "tune" makes your car better (especially more durable.........not). It might make more HP and if that is your deffinition of better, cool. But any OEM optimizes the powertrain calibration on a wide range of requirements. You are focussing HP. I've said it before and I'll say it again..............if there were some magic formula that resulted in HP and Fuel Economy and it met emissions, it would already be in your car. There are engineers that do nothing but optimize these calibrations.

GM provides a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on your powertrain. That warranty is based on millions of dollars spent to engineer and validate the car under the conditions it is delivered to you. You can't expect any company to warranty a product when you modify it outside those boundry conditions.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:09 AM   #71
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Temper, I don't pretent to be knowledgeable in computer stuff. I was just making an example and yet, you completely missed the point. Yes, I can understand you fix stuff but if you work for a company, you do it because you are getting paid to do what the company tells you to do. On the other hand, if you own the company and people are coming to you to fix 2nd or 3rd party mistakes and expect you to do it for free, I think you would be singing a different tune. I am willing to bet you don't get the point I just tried to make either.
Why the hatred for a car manufacturer's stance on possibly voiding your car warranty if/when you alter their product? Why did you buy a damn car to begin with??!!?? Put some wheels on your computer and ride it to work!
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:16 AM   #72
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Someone needs to put a fork in this thread and put it out of its misery, the conversation has digressed from its original intent to a shouting match...lol
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:33 AM   #73
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I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........

So my car is supposed to run pig rich from the factory? You guys didnt want me to pick up a few hp and a mpg on purpose? A stock tune is no different...at all than any mail order aftermarket tune. Its a generic one size fits all tune. Some will lack in performance, some will lack in economy. But to say the factory tune is optimized is ridiculous otherwise my a/f ratio would of been dead on from the factory instead of leaning out to normal ranges with a CAI. If your tune was so optimized it should of not budged. That leads me to believe you guys tuned the motors without the Camaros intakes on them, maybe some sort of generic shop intake? Because it was off, no ifs ands or buts about it.


Furthermore if the cars went through thousands of hours of tuning you would think they would of caught that the l99 cpus were getting stuck in low octane mode. Maybe in those thousands of hours of tuning (b.s.) they never thought to run different octanes to see what happens? LOL about as good of testing as the guys who made the PDIM.


EDIT: Let me add though, I believe the transmission to be a different story. It can easily be broken through tuning and should not be messed with at all if you expect warranty work to ever be done on it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:09 AM   #74
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Someone needs to put a fork in this thread and put it out of its misery, the conversation has digressed from its original intent to a shouting match...lol


I am guilty. Sorry guys.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:24 PM   #75
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I am guilty. Sorry guys.
well... that's an honest post right there. Ur A-OK in my book
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