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Old 11-05-2009, 02:07 PM   #1
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What my personal research has turned up...

Ok, before you burn me as a troll...i am not trying to stir up controversy. These were my honest findings and my reasons on my purchase. I am very interested to see what sort of PRODUCTIVE, counter-arguments get made (ohter then the OBVIOUS fan boy "but camaro is better" or "it just looks bad ass" logic please).

Thanks:

Consumer Report says Mustang better than Camaro: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/01/chevy-camaro-and-dodge-challenger-better-than-fords-mustang-i/
Camaro 4 star frontal crash rating/mustang 5 star frontal crash rating: http://wot.motortrend.com/6570677/auto-news/chevy-camaro-gets-4-star-crash-test-rating-short-of-mustangs-5-star-rating/index.html
Recommended fuel for camaro (and challenger) is UNLEADED PREMIUM…while the Mustang runs happily on the recommended UNLEAD REGULAR. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_ch allenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/specs_and_road_test_data.html
Camaro is not a drivers car…the mustang is. Almost universally, every review I have read that isn’t ONLY looking at straight line performance, picks the Mustang ahead of either the Camaro or the Challenger:
. “In this company, the steering trumps—it’s fast, direct, and, though still a bit isolated, far more naturally weighted than that of the other two” Car and Driver.
Angus MacKenzie: The best steering in an American car. Ever. Direct, linear, good feel. Astounding turn-in response -- helped in no small way by the PZero tires. Superb pedal placement -- brake and clutch and gas pedals nicely aligned; heel-and-toe downshifts a cinch. Five-speed manual lighter, crisper shift than Tremec 6060 in the other two. Motor trend.
Ed Loh: The biggest surprise here. I thought the Camaro would leave the Mustang in a ditch by the side of the road, but I was genuinely surprised at how capable the Mustang is. Its long and meaty third gear sends the car roaring up Sunrise Highway. Similar to the Camaro, though the downhill is where the Mustang begins to separate itself. Sharper more communicative steering (a result of that Track Pack?) gives the Mustang more confidence through corners. Motor Trend
I could post 10 more just like this but you get the point.
I keep seeing fan boy posts saying “the SS camaro just blows away the mustang gt”…nothing could be further from the truth. The performance of the camaro would be “photo finish” compared to a mustang GT if anything. The performance advantage of a camaro SS over a mustang GT is nothing short of marginal at best. See below:’
Acceleration to mph:
0-30 2.0/2.2 sec** camaro 1.9 sec/mustang
0-40 2.7/3.0** camaro 2.9 sec/mustang
0-50 3.6/3.9** camaro 3.8 sec/mustang
0-60 4.7/5.1** camaro 5.1 sec/mustang

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_ch allenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/specs_and_road_test_data.html#ixzz0W0t2vKWz

There are 2 sets of times for the Camaro…using the automated throttle system (performance mode?) and one just using a driver skill for good measure….either way the Mustang is actually FASTER to 30mph…no surprise there considering the weight.
Can someone BESIDES a fan boy explain to me how these times constitute “blowing away”…???
Camaro has less rear passenger room:
Camaro, COMPLETELY non functional JOKE of a trunk. My girl friend and I decided to take the new mustang to the mountains for the weekend last weekend. I managed to get no less than 2 full size rolling suitcases, 2 full size toiletry bags, 2 lap tops, a back pack, a dirty clothes bag full of clothes, a car wash kit, 2 beach towels, 2 full size heavy coats, a pool stick, 2 bowling ball bags with bowling balls in them, and 2 umbrellas in the trunk NO PROBLEM….. try that with ANY OF THE COMPETITING MUSCLE CARS AND ONLY the challenger would measure up. Nit picky??? Yes, until you and YOUR girl friend decide to take the camaro to the mountains and you end up in the drive way arguing for an hour because nothing will fit….then get back to me about how “nit picky” this issue is.
Camaro, very poor visibility/HUGE blind spots
Camaro, untested plat form. Will likely have a significantly higher maintenance cost out of pocket.
Camaro price currently about 25% higher than comparable equipped mustang, haven’t seen them cheaper than in the upper 30s (don’t know WHERE you guys are finding these in the low 30’s as I have visited 5 or 6 dealerships in the south east and have not seen any for that price) while I got mustang for 27k out the door.
Camaro….have to exit the vehicle when pulling up to a bank ATM or gated community style call center to reach the key pads. Believe me, I am not making this up…the side window opening is comparable to my RX8 and it is ridiculous in these situations.
Mustang wins in the steering and skip pad categories basically ties in the handling department.
Not as fast but and has less horsepower per pound but you get much more performance per dollar, which is basically where it really counts when you are dealing with such close competition.
In 0-60 performance, the mustang is basically 8% slower or rather then mustang gives you 92% of the camaros performance. 4.6 versus 5.0seconds
In costs the cheapest mustang gt is basically 23% cheaper than the cheapest Camaro SS I have seen for sale. (27k versus 35k), or rather the camaro is 23% more expensive. 27k versus 35k
So with a camaro you get +8% performance for +23% the cost. I will concede that in the future this is when the dealers stop screwing the customers this is likely to be more like 8% more performance for 10% more costs which is VERY reasonable….however, cost per performance being near equal at that cost….I don’t know that I’d be willing to give up a usable trunk and actual traffic visibility for “bragging rights” of the fastest 0-60…. Or .5 second faster ¼ mile.
Yes i know the argument "but thats the PURPOSE of a muscle car"..i will concede you are right there and if value comparisons and practical arguments are not considered, the Camaro does rule on attitude/looks and speed. However i will also actually BE DRIVING this car, which means things like value and practical matters are important.... If i were only buying it to look at in the drive way and race teenagers on friday nights....id concede that line of thinking....but i do not think that line of thought is at all realistic???

Well, those are my thoughts...
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:19 PM   #2
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Im not going to argue your findings or your thoughts on this. Here are the facts for me:

Ive wanted a Camaro for over 25+ years
I very carefully watched the development of this particular car for several years.
Im completely satisfied with the acceleration, handling, power, and trunk size.

Unarguably in my mind the Mustang is a very nice looking car (wouldnt have told you that 20 years ago) but I see 150 mustangs to every Camaro. That in my mind makes it unique and I like to be unique and not like every other cookie cutter person out there who calls himself a car guy.

Ive built cars in the past, raced them, crashed them, and admired them. I have no doubt in my mind I made a good choice for me.

So it really doesnt come down to whos better, faster, lighter...bla bla bla..It comes down to what makes you happy and my SS makes me pretty damn happy.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:26 PM   #3
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Smith View Post
Im not going to argue your findings or your thoughts on this. Here are the facts for me:

Ive wanted a Camaro for over 25+ years
I very carefully watched the development of this particular car for several years.
Im completely satisfied with the acceleration, handling, power, and trunk size.

Unarguably in my mind the Mustang is a very nice looking car (wouldnt have told you that 20 years ago) but I see 150 mustangs to every Camaro. That in my mind makes it unique and I like to be unique and not like every other cookie cutter person out there who calls himself a car guy.

Ive built cars in the past, raced them, crashed them, and admired them. I have no doubt in my mind I made a good choice for me.

So it really doesnt come down to whos better, faster, lighter...bla bla bla..It comes down to what makes you happy and my SS makes me pretty damn happy.
well said mr. smith...i felt i bought my car because it "spoke" to me most out of the 3, which i admire as well. i grew up with my dad's 73 road runner around so i always had that warm fuzzy feeling for mopars. i've owned a camaro as well and got love for it too. almost bought a mustang in 05 when they went retro, but waited when i saw the challenger concept pictures start to leak.

and mr smith...nice car man...my old camaro was black, so i got a soft spot for that color too!
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Smith View Post

Unarguably in my mind the Mustang is a very nice looking car (wouldnt have told you that 20 years ago) but I see 150 mustangs to every Camaro. That in my mind makes it unique and I like to be unique and not like every other cookie cutter person out there who calls himself a car guy.

So it really doesnt come down to whos better, faster, lighter...bla bla bla..It comes down to what makes you happy and my SS makes me pretty damn happy.
I agree with those points COMPLETELY. I think the Camaro wins in the "wow" category. Of course that does not even BEGIN to excuse the fan boy flame comments about mustangs i have seen on this web site or all the comments about buying one IF you are a teenage girl i have seen. (Steve Mcqueen would be offended)

My point here was that while the Camaro wins on "wow" (which to me seems MORE LIKE A TEENAGE girl argument in favor of Camaro by the way)....the Mustang is the over all "better buy", pound for pound, speed for speed, dollar for dollar, and use vs wow...

Again before ya flame me...someone has to be the counter-argument of all the fan boy posters who are pro-camaro i have seen on here.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by 2SSARME View Post
The Camaro beats the GT in everything except handling.
Absolutely NOT true, try reading my original post. There is some trade off and give and take between the two....when you say "wins" you are referring mostly to that .5 second quarter of mile time or .2 to .3 second quarter of a mile time...that my friend is not "everything", not by a long shot. That would be as ridicluous as me arguing in favor of the mustang because it came up .1 second faster in 0-30.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allentown View Post
Absolutely NOT true, try reading my original post. There is some trade off and give and take between the two....when you say "wins" you are referring mostly to that .5 second quarter of mile time or .2 to .3 second quarter of a mile time...that my friend is not "everything", not by a long shot. That would be as ridicluous as me arguing in favor of the mustang because it came up .1 second faster in 0-30.
i think its pretty safe to say that all 3 modern muscle cars are too close performance wise to call any a landslide victory and that it all comes down to personal preference when choosing which to buy. none are far enough ahead of the others and none of them destroy the other ones in any category...at least the ones in the same class.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:45 PM   #8
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Thanks for the comment mjf...I like the new Challengers also...Heck I like all three of these vehicles. I happen to be a GM person and always have. I like Jay Leno's comments on how GM is really changing things around with this car and agree whole heartedly...GM has had allot of crap for many years and is finally starting to get back into the mode of making stuff we want that doesnt fall apart.

And yes Allentown I think you are right about the Mustang being a better buy pound for pound. However I think im probably the most farthest away from a "Fan boy" or "Teenage girl" stereotype as you can get. Like I said, I know cars...Ive built and raced them, rebuilt my first 327 (remember those?) when I was 14 and put it into a 57 Chevy truck. The fact of the matter is its personal taste...My best friend I grew up with built a bad ass mach1 and it was cool and wicked fast but Fords and Chryslers for that matter just dont have the look and feel that suites my taste and like I said...Theres 400 billion Mustangs out there. I think I read somewhere here that someone said.."Camaro lovers are a different breed of people"..I believe that to be true and dont think that most are Fan Boys or Teenage girls.

Is the Mustang faster, nicer looking, etc? Depends on who you ask and whos driving it..Hell my 7000 lb 3/4 ton Duramax has embarrassed a few mustangs around here...Maybe because it is faster or maybe because I know how to run it and the Mustang drivers didnt...
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:53 PM   #9
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I guess you want to talk about logical decision making about illogical cars-

This isn't fanboi-ism, this is an absolute truth: You cannot separate out fanboyism from the purchase of any of the pony cars because the pony cars are purchased on a strictly emotional basis. You want to sit down and get all Spocky on cars that just don't fit anyone from a logic basis. These cars, at least in V8 form are dream cars, playthings, whatever- but no one bought it with the thought of "how can I get through the ATM" in mind.

If you really want to compare things on the practical level, I'll point you toward a Subaru Wagon- the most practical car on the face of the planet. Otherwise you are making a point out of the pointless.

Now you can sit and talk about numbers all day, and I can tell you that as long as the car gets up and moves- only the most rabid of fans care. All 99% care about is that they bought the car that they are happy with. I'll give you points for summarizing 6 months of reviews though.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:55 PM   #10
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Not a big fan of Dodge any more, although i LOVE the Challenger and the Camaro. My Durango has had more repairs then ANY CAR i have EVER OWNED. LOL. I did see an interview over the summer of an irate and out of buisness Dodge dealership owner who remarked "the only reason Chevy is not last on consumer reports is because Dodge holds that position"

Do not kill the messenger, i am just quoting a dealership owner, However, after owning a Durango, i am inclined to believe him. Personal experience counts for a lot and my 05 Mustang got a grand total of a set of tires and a new battery in 103k miles of driving... :P

Anyway, truth be told i went to buy a Camaro twice and just could not BELIEVE the dealer mark up on em....it soured me pretty bad on the idea. They were from 38k to 48k...granted, over the top equipped but still... There was just no way.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:58 PM   #11
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Thats the dealer...not the car. See you are a closet lover of the Camaro...Admit it...FanBoi...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allentown View Post
Not a big fan of Dodge any more, although i LOVE the Challenger and the Camaro. My Durango has had more repairs then ANY CAR i have EVER OWNED. LOL. I did see an interview over the summer of an irate and out of buisness Dodge dealership owner who remarked "the only reason Chevy is not last on consumer reports is because Dodge holds that position"

Do not kill the messenger, i am just quoting a dealership owner, However, after owning a Durango, i am inclined to believe him. Personal experience counts for a lot and my 05 Mustang got a grand total of a set of tires and a new battery in 103k miles of driving... :P

Anyway, truth be told i went to buy a Camaro twice and just could not BELIEVE the dealer mark up on em....it soured me pretty bad on the idea. They were from 38k to 48k...granted, over the top equipped but still... There was just no way.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:59 PM   #12
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Allentown, you put 103k miles on your 05? That's alot of miles. Just curious, did it ever start feeling 'old' or not?
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:03 PM   #13
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You seem to be selectively researching the comparisons that put the Mustang ahead. Expand your "personal research" to include at least a few of the major publications that rate the Camaro a better all-around car than the Mustang. Maybe they'll have something new to tell you, or maybe you'll dismiss everything they say out of hand as more fanboyism. After all, the term "fanboy" usually just means "person who strongly disagrees with me."
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:03 PM   #14
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I don't know whether you are quibbling or just ignorant, but your price numbers are wrong.

Typically this is what a base Mustang will cost you-
Base 2010 Mustang GT MSRP: $27,995.
Destination Charge: $850
Total: $28,845

However, you can't get a "base" Mustang if you want its amazing handling. What all those reviews say is that the Track Pack makes handle so well. The only way to add a track pack is getting a Mustang GT Premium. So here your real price:

Premium 2010 Mustang GT MSRP: $27,995.
Track Pack: $1,530
Destination Charge: $850
Total: $33,375


Compare to a Camaro 1SS. I don't include any extra's on the Camaro because none of the extra's affect performance. Unlike what the reviews wrote, the RS package does NOT add 20-inch wheels; those are standard.

2010 Chevy Camaro 1SS MSRP: $30,745
Destination Charge: $850
Total: $31,595

So right now you have to pay $1780 MORE for a Mustang with 110 less HP, slow 0-60 times, and slower 1/4 miles.

One more thing, here are the following discounts for a Mustang and Camaro:

Ford-
Cash Back: $1000
Military: $500
New total with both incentives: $31,875

Chevy-
60 day rebate: $500
USAA member (even non-military can join for free): $750
New total with both incentives: $30,345

Still a $1530 difference, or $2030 if you are not active duty. You would only get the $500 military Ford discount if you are on active service, which most people ARE NOT. Plus, these numbers WITHOUT getting a supplier pricing discount from GM. I don't know if Ford has supplier pricing, so I didn't include. Feel free to respond back with those numbers if they do.

So don't come in here with that cost/performance BS, because you are paying MORE for LESS with the Mustang.
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