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Old 11-08-2009, 04:49 PM   #1
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Anyone here try the Hotchkis Max Rear Chassis Brace kit?

Is this more suited for drag racing? Sorta reminds me of the old school traction bars they used to install.
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:02 PM   #2
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not like a traction bar.

just a chassis stiffner. Tieing together different parts of the chassis. I'm sure it helps stiffen the car but not sure its worth the weight penality??
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:05 PM   #3
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hasn't pedders already stated that chasis bracing is not really necessary on this car, or was that only if you didnt plan on an all out race car?
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:46 PM   #4
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Hi guys, we did extensive track testing (including mounting cameras on the rear subframe) and determined that it IS necessary on cars with increased power or that will see even casual track time. A company that doesn't make one might suggest it's not necessary... but we also caught a certain engineer from a certain company in our booth before the start of the SEMA show with a camera and a micrometer writing down the specs on all our parts.

The brace works really well and makes a discernible difference, it was also engineered in conjunction with Lingenfelter, since they also found stock SS cars had excessive rear subframe movement under hard acceleration and were worried about what would happen in a car with 700hp.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotchkis View Post
Hi guys, we did extensive track testing (including mounting cameras on the rear subframe) and determined that it IS necessary on cars with increased power or that will see even casual track time. A company that doesn't make one might suggest it's not necessary... but we also caught a certain engineer from a certain company in our booth before the start of the SEMA show with a camera and a micrometer writing down the specs on all our parts.

The brace works really well and makes a discernible difference, it was also engineered in conjunction with Lingenfelter, since they also found stock SS cars had excessive rear subframe movement under hard acceleration and were worried about what would happen in a car with 700hp.
well i guess i was wrong then. hey just going off what i have been reading, but this makes me reconsider. i used hotchkis on my srt-4 and it was awesome.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:00 PM   #6
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... but we also caught a certain engineer from a certain company in our booth before the start of the SEMA show with a camera and a micrometer writing down the specs on all our parts.
That's just wrong
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:03 PM   #7
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but we also caught a certain engineer from a certain company in our booth before the start of the SEMA show with a camera and a micrometer writing down the specs on all our parts.
Dude I think I might have chased him out of there for something like that. Seems kinda shady.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:11 PM   #8
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Will this be help the car hook though? I know the bushings need to be replaced first. Any other products to help traction? Didn't seem to find anything at SEMA.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:59 PM   #9
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Hotchkis thanks for jumping in the thread I posted.

Will this be a good upgrade for cars driven on the street around 500hp mark?

We all know the subframe in the rear sucks ass the way it wiggles does the brace eliminate the wiggle? Does the brace solve the problem that everyone feels urethane subframe bushings will solve?


Give us more details. Also why did you guys use aluminum versus steel?
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:15 PM   #10
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I had the Hotchkis TVS on my old Dakota R/T truck and that suspension made the truck handle like most sports cars. Once I stiffened up the chassis with a Kenny Brown X-Brace it further increased the handling and reduced wheel hop. Bottomline is the track pack from Hotchkis looks to be incredibly well engineered for the new Camaro.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:59 PM   #11
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nhss, and 55designs,

Those are good questions, and I'm happy to be able to answer them for you.

Will this be help the car hook?

Yes in testing we found it substantially reduces wheel hop

Will this be a good upgrade for cars driven on the street around 500hp mark?

This is highly recommended for any car with increased HP.

We all know the subframe in the rear sucks ass the way it wiggles does the brace eliminate the wiggle? Does the brace solve the problem that everyone feels urethane subframe bushings will solve?

Yes it resolves the wiggle without adding the harsh ride caused by other solutions.



Give us more details. Also why did you guys use aluminum versus steel?

We met with our engineers and our metal supplier (we only use domestic steel and aluminum - not everyone can claim that and it makes a BIG difference in long-term product durability) and they assured us that this special extruded elliptical aluminum tubing, when TIG welded and diagonally braced would be stronger than a single rectangular steel subframe brace tube. This way we save weight on the already heavy 2010 Camaro and create a more rigid brace in the process - plus the eliptical tubing is essential for maintaining ground clearance and a stealth appearance under the car.
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:56 PM   #12
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Sold! Great video man!
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:28 PM   #13
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Nice! Is any ground clearance lost?
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:14 PM   #14
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I will have one of the first production units before Thanksgiving. Cant wait to report back to everyone on what it does.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotchkis View Post
Yes it resolves the wiggle without adding the harsh ride caused by other solutions.

See a video here
You insinuate that the 'other solutions' cause a harsh ride, I have no found that in any of the cars that we have done, Our EP1201 Sub Frame Bushings help to keep the cradle secure in all directions, not just certain directions. Your video shows a ton of movement in the subframe.

Your part does look pretty, but i'm not sure i'd take the stance of saying it's better than a bushing upgrade, of course a company that doesn't make one might suggest it's not necessary...
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:07 PM   #16
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I'll be looking into running this Hotchkis brace. With the power I'm running, I need all the help I can get.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:07 AM   #17
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:32 PM   #18
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I was at SEMA and was thinking how much lower is on the the car as i have lowered the car some 2 1/2 " in the rear and 2" in the front and as sone as i pur on the new rims this car will go lower some more, Can you let me know if this part on the car removes ground clearance please.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:43 PM   #19
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Corning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotchkis View Post
nhss, and 55designs,

Those are good questions, and I'm happy to be able to answer them for you.

Will this be help the car hook?

Yes in testing we found it substantially reduces wheel hop

Will this be a good upgrade for cars driven on the street around 500hp mark?

This is highly recommended for any car with increased HP.

We all know the subframe in the rear sucks ass the way it wiggles does the brace eliminate the wiggle? Does the brace solve the problem that everyone feels urethane subframe bushings will solve?

Yes it resolves the wiggle without adding the harsh ride caused by other solutions.



Give us more details. Also why did you guys use aluminum versus steel?

We met with our engineers and our metal supplier (we only use domestic steel and aluminum - not everyone can claim that and it makes a BIG difference in long-term product durability) and they assured us that this special extruded elliptical aluminum tubing, when TIG welded and diagonally braced would be stronger than a single rectangular steel subframe brace tube. This way we save weight on the already heavy 2010 Camaro and create a more rigid brace in the process - plus the eliptical tubing is essential for maintaining ground clearance and a stealth appearance under the car.
I this make my Camaro drive on Pocono country roads at 50 to 55mph easier than any other one. Why?
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Old 11-16-2009, 05:07 PM   #20
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I saw this unit at SEMA and it was very nice! We've used a lot of Hotchkis products in the past and I'd recommend them to anyone.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:41 PM   #21
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I have used Hotchkis parts for years on a number of products. Their quality is outstanding overall.

I too saw their unit at SEMA and it appears to be made again in a very high quality manner.

With that said, to advise or make reference to bushings creating a harsh ride is not accountable. A countless amount of GM engineers have roadtested and evaluated our set ups for the rear ZETA platforms. All of them, without exception, were at a loss as to explain why there was a very high quality ride, and the abilities of the bushings to keep noises to a very low level. GM put Pedders thru a lot on the Camaro. They came to us to help them with issues related to the Koni Series GS Camaro they were building. With that said, I can only comment on our bushings, and not others. Other bushings may look the same because of the design of the OE components, but that is where the similiarities end. Raw poly materials cost between $35 to $450 per gallon. Our Pedders poly bushings for the Zeta platforms and others is well into the upper $300 range per gallon. We did this out of choice, due to understanding load requirements, durability, noise abatement, and ride quality. I cannot say other companies will use such a high quality poly base.

Now to relate this to the Camaro, there is a reason the Camaro is as heavy as it is. It is one of the most structurally sound vehicles made in the world. Other vehicles like Mustang, earlier Camaros, etc, require more bracing than is available. Adding the bracings for the Camaro that are or will be available will make the undercarriage look great, but will have little to no functional improvement by themselves.

It is true that the Pedders approach and massive R&D has been slower than we hoped. But considering the level of the R&D, it has been seriously fast. It is true that the rear suspension specifically, is really sensitive to high hp (450hp rear seems to be the magic number), tire sizes, and the use of drag radials, more than many other performance cars. Because of this, Pedders has taken the posture that we should not make 1 kit fits all issues. We have multiple choices in the rear cradle bushing and differential mounts bushing opportunities. We did this primarily out of costs to the consumer. We offer engineered inserts that make the OE bushing solid. Over the 450hp and the use of drag radials, the rubber in the OE bushing moves too much under that radically increased loads. Therefore, we offer a complete solid bushing that is engineered for noise abatement, structure, and reliability. This is a serious upgrade, but is more expensive and requires a higher amount of degree of installation ability, probably equal to the bracing, than the 30 minute installation of the insert bushings.

These parts will be in the warehouse within weeks. But we have been fanatic on the design and functionality thru our testing. But for us, it must be right and it is.

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Old 11-17-2009, 04:38 PM   #22
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The Camaros that were designed by GM at the Milford Proving Grounds for racing do NOT use chassis braces. They use denser bushes. A chassis brace adds weight to a vehicle that is already heavy and does not address the issue at the source of the problem. Further, why add weight when you can simply replace the bush to an already heavy vehicle? Pedders does not make a chassis brace because the Camaro does not require a chassis brace. It requires improved denser sub-frame bushes.

The solution being used by the Camaros running the Grand Am Challenge is bush replacement with Delryn. Delryn is a very hard very dense plastic. The down side to using Delryn is that is wears quickly and requires frequent replacement. Urethane is a better solution for anything but a dedicated race car. Pedders offers three different solutions for this particular issue on the Camnaro chassis.

EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts
EP1201 Sub-Frame Bushes
EP1201HD Delryn for the Street Bushes -- New Part

The EP1200 has eight insert for the sub-frame bushes. They fill the voids and make the bush far more stable than the OEM bush. The inserts are all that most in the Camaro community will ever need. There is no noticeable change in the NVH characteristics of the vehicle, but you will notice that the IRS is more controlled and composed. The inserts are simple to install for a DIY and extremely cost effective. Sub-frame inserts and radius bush snubbers are the low hanging fruit for the Camaro owner in search of improved handling.

The EP1201 are complete replacement bushes and mandatory for those that exceed 500 RWHP. There is more than a 750% increase in the control surfaces between the sub-frame and the monocoque. Couple the increase in control surface with a denser material and the improvement is truly impressive. There is a change in the NVH, but you'll NEVER HEAR IT. Why, because to make more than 500 RWHP your car is a bit louder than stock and that will mask the slight change in NVH. Even if it didn't your hard launches would make you forget about it.

The EP120HD was conceived way back when when the GS Camaros were being built at the proving grounds. They said Delryn and we thought Delryn for the street. How can we do Delryn for the street. Then we did our testing. Then we did track days. Until Paul Tracy hung the Camaro to the very edge of the envelope there was no need for the EP1201HD. With Paul behind the wheel and rowing down harder and faster through the gears than I our our other test drivers we didn't find the ever so slight oversteer at this edge. We doubt many of our customers will either, but for those up to finding the extreme edge of the envelope we have the thisclose to Delryn EP1201HD. I installed them on our Pedders Camaro yesterday. They are crisp and provide a razors edge to what is by all measures the best handling street driven 2010 Camaro. They will be in our catalog shortly.

Pedders addresses all chassis issues at the source. Where there is a weak link, we redesign the weak link and make it a strength. The bottom line on Camaro performance is where the rubber meets the road. Pedders has shown a 3 second increase on a bone stock Camaro in our Autobahn testing with Nickey. We bench marked the Camaro on track. Installed Xa coilovers, EP6579 Radius Bush Snubbers and aligned the car. The same day, with the same driver we showed a 3 second improvement.

We took a group of cars to Gingerman and tested an OEM Camaro, a C6 Corvette and a the Pedders Camaro. The Pedders Camaro was a full 7 seconds faster than the OEM Camaro pulling 1.385 Gs on the track consistently. In relation to the Corvette... we are still on a gag order.

We took our Camaro to the Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge and produced the 3rd fastest time at the event behind a 2,400 pound Cobra and a custom built 68 Camaro that weighs in at 3,100 pounds both on D.O.T. legal slicks. We weighed in at two tons and ran street tires. The closest 2010 Camaro was just over 6 seconds behind the Pedders Camaro.



When it comes to what works on a Camaro we highly recommend you look at what GM is doing and what is proven on the street and track. Forget about marketing and get a test drive in a Camaro with the modifications you are considering. If you want your test drive in what appear to be the fastest best handling Camaro on the street -- come and see me. I'll be happy to take you out.
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:50 PM   #23
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Pedders once again you spent lots of time on a thread for a different product while promoting your product that ISNT IN STOCK and Hasnt been in stock . It seems your test car has the bushings and no other out of the 65k Camaros built so far. I want the bushings just like eveyone else but like myself and quite a few others we sought a quick alternative to the lack of supply on the bushings. I am not being rude I hope but once you guys are fully stocked you should come on here to promote.
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:53 PM   #24
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I am happy to get this part soon because it seems nothing from Pedders or is ever in stock. I have spoken to so many guys who are frustrated over this. If parts are not on the ground then why promote them at SEMA, Camaro 5 and via PM its just outright annoying for an enthusiast like myself to be teased when money is always in my right hand.

I still want to do the subframe inserts but when there is no stock and contant promoting its making me and many others look elseware for solutions.

Cant wait to get this and I hope to have my real deal coilovers by then.
I am sorry you are frustrated.

To those who are interested in our bits, please allow me to make a suggestion. Contact your Dealer our Pedders directly and place your order. As parts arrive we ship them with retail sold parts being the highest priority. Many of our parts never make it to the online catalog because of our retail sold comes first policy. None will take more than six weeks to fill. If they do call me.

The Camaro market is unlike any we have experienced. The owners are ridiculously passionate and buying parts to personalise their cars at a pace that no one would have expected or continue to expect. I am the person that schedules production and take full responsibility for what we have in stock. GM purchased 10 sets for SEMA cars. We have Dealers like Nickey and Hennessy ordering by the dozens. Berger ordered 20 car sets to get started in production. Fessler Moss is a bottomless pit. It is a high quality problem to have and sure beats having the warehouse stuffed to the ceiling and dust on the phone.

I just got of the phone with a Camaro buyer with his car on order. He just purchased Xa coilovers, radius snubbers and sub-frame inserts so they will have the parts when the car delivers about Christmas. That is unheard of and we greatly appreciate it.
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:55 PM   #25
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Pedders once again you spent lots of time on a thread for a different product while promoting your product that ISNT IN STOCK and Hasnt been in stock . It seems your test car has the bushings and no other out of the 65k Camaros built so far. I want the bushings just like eveyone else but like myself and quite a few others we sought a quick alternative to the lack of supply on the bushings. I am not being rude I hope but once you guys are fully stocked you should come on here to promote.
Excuse me sir for having offended you.
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