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Old 10-18-2009, 07:44 PM   #1
Cmicasa the Great XvX
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Saturn/Hummer Simply Should've Never Been "Other" Brands

Whelp.. The Saturn deal is supposedly DEAD, duly noting that it was the fact that Penske was unable to obtain cars for the brand from the Koreans after GM stopped supplying them. Confirming what the WSJ was saying. I saw this whole deal as bullshit anyway considering GM would be essentially competing with the newly owned Penske Saturn initially with its own sourced vehicles and then with Samsung sourced ones.

Personally I am of the opinion that we simply don't need anymore brands here in the U.S. as it is already over saturated. Ideally GM will see that the peanuts that they were getting for Saturn would not even remotely make up for the money that they could potentially lose if Penske's Saturn introduced yet another brand into the U.S. market. I simply don't see the need for anymore IMPORTS being brought into our market. It's ridiculous to believe that this is cool just to say that the brand was saved. Penske would have gotten the Saturn brand for about $100-$200 Million. CHUMP CHANGE in fact, with Fritz's belief that he is getting rid of more of a loss than he could possibly incur if they have to compete with another brand. When all is said and done.. U will have Hummer and Saturn sold for a combined amount less than $500 Million. I hate seeing more Asians entering into this market. It makes me kinda sick.. especially the Hummer one.

As I said before... my real wish is that the Hummer deal falls thru as well, leading GM to merge it with GMC. It was a very profitable brand and doesn't actually need it's name to do what it was doing. The Hummer name could be made into a Trim level in line with the Denali one. Denali being the upper-level near lux version of GMC and the Hummer line being the off-road part of the Division. OR take the opportunity for GMC to actually differentiate itself even further from Chevy. Certainly U would keep the more moderate vehicles as they appeal to the mainstream buyers.. but why not merge the H2, H3, H3T, and that gorgeous Hx (H4) into the line-up of GMC calling them all the Denali trim level. Just replace the HUMMER insignia with GMC. Why in the world would GM want to sell this brand to another Foreign entity just to make a quick buck? How is this gonna pose competition for the GMC Brand??? Why did they not just merge the two brands and forgo the minuscule possible $100 Million-200 million? That amount is less than last year's gross made on the brand... In this whole shake up, we have now a situation where we witness two more automakers entering into the U.S. market.. a market that is as diluted as any in the world with exception to China.

Don't get me wrong.. I am still in love with the idea of a 4 core Brand GM. But any consideration of selling these "bad brands" off to the highest bidder kinda makes me sick.. and makes me seriously in favor of simply killing them altogether.


Saturn Should have been the "New Olds" Division called "Aurora" and Hummer should have been simply called GMC's "Denali" H2, H3, H... etc.


Saturn, an Experiment that should have never been implemented in the first place, was in my opinion bound to fail. It was not even widely known to be American, let alone apart of GM, yet despite all of that, a a cult following of "nice people" it still continued to never truly contribute to the bottom line of it's encouraging parent.




Keep in mind that when GM green-lighted the Saturn brand in 1985 GM already had Chevy, Buick, Olds, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Roger Smith, in all his wisdom , ****in idiot :banghead: , created the brand to combat the growing menaces from Japan... instead of just revamping one of the brands already under his charge... like OOOOOH... Oldsmobile. That brand could have certainly been the one to get the Saturn treatment, as it was in line to be revamped anyway in just 5 short years.

Yup... the Olds revamp was already being put into motion in 1990. The Aurora, Intrigue, and Alero were not just pulled outta the air in 1995. Ironically.. they all looked like more substantial Saturns of the time than anything else (See Below). Oldsmobile’s general manager even suggested renaming the brand "Aurora." Of course that didn't go over well and in the end, he just left the name off the Intrigues and Aleros, or rather made the Olds name so small U would barely notice it there.






The Same thoughts go out to Hummer... and Ricky Boy not simply making it a part of GMC from the start. IN the year 2000... there was the Terradyne. A Hummer if I've ever seen one.






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Old 10-18-2009, 07:45 PM   #2
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Where Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer owners Should Go

Without its four "gone" brands... GM is set to post an actual increase in Market share for the month of October 2009. Before they were closed or sold last month... 3 of the 4 brands only contributed about 3800 Vehicles to GM's sales numbers. Pontiac, heavy in fleet and low on profit, sold less vehicles than the extremely profitable Cadillac.

I would also like to point out that CHEVY alone had an almost equal market share last month to all of Ford (including Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, and Volvo).

Truth is that Hummer's buyer's may balk at the fact that the "All-American" brand is no longer American.. and is in fact... Chinese. GM could easily change the buyers into GMC buyers with new product. Saturn and Saab shouldn't be much of an issue either... as their sales numbers were either small or completely unprofitable. Having their sales numbers to boost Market Share was like having a $1M gold coin sitting in the middle of a back room, in a desk, in secure location in the Pentagon and U don't have Gov't clearance to even get on the grounds... :unsure: What U don't have (profit) U shouldn't miss.

Pontiac Buyers are another story. Then again Pontiac sold almost 40% of it's sales to Fleet. One of their cars was a Toyota, one was a direct rebadge of the Equinox, and the other two were niche, limited sales vehicles.

In truth.. all GM has to do to is convert G6 buyers to Chevy.. or even upgrade them to Buick. I own a G6, and constantly mentally cheat on it by imagining it was a Malibu :( .

As good as my G6 has been to me... I'm not in denial that it was anything more than "2004 Malibu version 2.0." Chevy could convert me with their Ep I Malibu, certainly Buick could convert me with it's superior Ep II based Regal. Then again, the Malibu gets a redo in 1 year on Ep II.

When surveys are done and Pontiac buyers say they will more than likely go to Ford, two things have happened; one is that the interviewer is talking to someone who probably hasn't purchased a Pontiac in over 10 years. Next is the failed belief by some hurt Zeta G8 admirers that Ford sells a car in their line-up other than the Mustang that actually is RWD. Which is weird, because Ford's line-up is almost identical to Chevy's... minus the super car Quadruplets under the "Corvette Division."

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Old 10-18-2009, 07:47 PM   #3
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Ford is On a Roll... Where??? I Ask 4 Proof

Ford is on a ROLL.

These are the words of a certain fellow Forum goer who seems to be a Fan of the company that Stephen Wozniak help found.

I ask Where???? Seriously. Where???

Ford's one claim to fame seems to be the Fusion. But from what I've seen is that the Fusion enjoyed a decent sales uptick after it was introduced for about 2 months. It is now selling in numbers that are almost even with the 2 year old Malibu which has the Impala still selling right next to it on the lots. The Taurus is a nice new car, but that has not translated into sales success unless U are directly comparing it to the previous Taurus's sales.. which were rightfully low due to a very mediocre vehicle. I have to in fact liken the Taurus at it's current pace in sales as being very similar to the GENESIS.. in that so much hype is surrounding it by non-buyers that a "halo" of success is automatically surrounding it even though it barely leaves the lots. That is not to say that the Taurus will not in in sales, but one can hardly say that they have been "on a roll" when only one product (Fusion) has surfaced showing any real numbers.. and even they have slacked off. The MKS, revised MKz, elephant MKT, and MKX are nothing impressive unless U lean them up against an Acura or something not on my radar

If we are talking future vehicles please don't... Bring up the Fiesta and I will absolutely fall over. It isn't a hit until it at least goes on sale. It would seem that by the time it gets here the new Aveo and Cruze will be ready to go as well. Buick will be getting ready to release the Regal, "Astra," Volt will be less than 8 months away along with the Orlando, and Cadillac will be readying the ATS, and XTS to hit the market in the latter part of 2010 or early 2011.

Truth is Ford, over the last year, has been a big fat HYPE machine. They gained good PR by not taking Gov't Funds, but the BK of GM and Chrysler might have done more harm to them than good. While Chrysler is a mess GM seems to be seriously benefiting from this entire mess by way of serious pent up demand for its new and improved products, more profit via less languishing product and no-need for UAW Strike inspired over-production, a reawakening of marketing genius, creative sales tactics, and squashing of age old perceptions.

The problem with Americans often comes from the basic truth that we very quickly forget. We often jump from one band wagon to another. I mean within a year:

1) Michael Jackson went from Child Molester to being essentially Canonized.

2)
Something Political... So I edited it not wanting to bring it here.

3) Toyota went from being the company that cares to the company that covers up, while Hyundai went from shitty ass cars to shitty ass cars that look better because they copied better looking cars,

Well U get the picture

The myriad of "I'll never buy from Government Motors, Ford is my brand if I'm buying American" advocates seemed to abandon that idea about a month ago. A fellow leaser in my office complex shouted that very same silly ass drivel when GM came out of BK... About a week ago I see that SOB pulling up in a Dark Blue Camaro SS.

"The new Mustang just didn't do it for me... Listen to those 426 Horsies rumble" HIS WORDS

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Old 10-18-2009, 07:48 PM   #4
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A Collage of "Friendly" Thoughts about the Cadillac XTS

An issue that I see with people doubting Cadillac's full return is that they seem to rest those laurels on the possibility of them having a front wheel drive based platform for their soon to arrive flagship. The SRX is a great example. Many detractors biggest issue with the vehicle before it was tested was the fact that it was not RWD like the previous one. Keep in mind the previous one with all of it great features failed so miserably, in terms of sales, that rumors had it that the idea would be abandoned altogether. Subsequently, we find that the new SRX equals or beats the two benchmarks on each end of the spectrum in the handling dept. not to mention interior and exterior design.

Might I remind people within that train of thought that if this flagship is, from what I've read, Awd, larger, wider, more luxurious than the German competitors such as the A8, 750i and S550, with similar sport aspirations, quality and reliability in check, and their current detail in attractive styling, Cadillac will be quite capable of competing with a those aforementioned Germans.

From sightings of magazine reviews of the new SRX, and my own test drive of the vehicle after comparing it to both the Audi Q5 and BMW X5 I see no viable reason why, in terms of handling and feel, should the AWD inclusion be overlooked if it is used in lieu of the RWD standard. Truth is the only think I noticed different in driving the SRX vs the X5 was the difference in obtainable power in lower bands. Both having almost identical power enabled me to see not much of a determinable difference in overall performance. Could Cadillac be on to something using a similar config. for the XTS, hopefully with more powerful engines of course?

(OK) 95% of the car buyers don't know a thing about platforms. I'm a "car guy" and with the exception of GM and some BMWs I have almost no clue what the other makers are using under which vehicle. What matters to me is ultimately performance, prestige, and comfort in a vehicle such as this.

(A) suggestion of AWD only only endears me to the possibility of this vehicle, possibly more so than a RWD other. I wouldn't think that I, for instance, would consider an S8 if it were not for the fact that it is AWD, but it would seem as though "what is ok for the Europeans, is not ok for Cadillac."

And that perplexes me on so many levels as to why VW gets a way with providing Audi and Lamborghini with FWDAWD-Only cars but GM gets roasted over the coals, so to speak.

I once got into a heated debate, in fact, about the fact that Bentley was using a OHV design in their $300K Arnage, but the very notion of the superior LS2 or LS3 in the STS was ludicrous.

Out of curiosity, because I haven't driven the new Lacrosse or the Insignia, what is wrong with the Epsilon II platform that it can not be good enough for Cadillac, BMW, or Benz. All that I have read about it in both of the aforementioned, GM vehicles says that the platform is world class, and above other vehicles in their respective classes. I theorize that if the Epsilon II platform were a Benz platform, for instance, no one would question it's ability to compete as a top tier luxury vehicle underpinning

If the XTS improves upon the Lacrosse at by at least 30%, then Cadillac will have a non-flagship that equals the 7series.
I would also like to defend my position on the "XTS rivaling the 7series" thing. I believe that it is completely doable even at that price point. Keep in mind that the CTS currently rivals the more expensive 5series, A6, and XF despite often being at least $5-7K less expensive. The CTS-V does it to the M5 while being $25K less expensive. And while I will agree that in some instances the Europeans certainly have a better grade of leather in their cars, they absolutely should be when one considers the hike in cost. I speak not of interior layout/design though. The Cadillacs win on that notion hands down.

Point is that I don't see a reason why this could not be the case with the XTS versus the 7series. The Lacrosse, for instance, has 90% of the technology in the STS. The STS has about 90% of the technology in the new 7series. I see no reason why GM couldn't improve upon the Lacrosse/STS offerings and rival the 7series
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:00 PM   #5
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in before close!
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:13 PM   #6
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Oh, and IBTL.
- X

P.S. - I agree about Ford floundering at the moment. But I also agree that this post may get modsmacked pretty quickly.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:14 PM   #7
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:17 PM   #8
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I just love the truth.. and definitely GM.. Ask around the web. I'm no troll.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:24 PM   #9
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I wish there was a place where you guys could debate these hot topics and not get reprimanded or infractioned. I enjoy reading the hot debates and learn a lot from them. Maybe they don't belong in a for topic, but there should be like a "flamewars" area where these types of topics could be moved to and then people could choose to read them or not and then everyone would be happy!
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:33 PM   #10
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But that's the thing.. I'm not trying to FLAME anyone... I always post from a TRUE point of view... If anyone looks at the actual post they will see that what I'm posting is real.

and don't get me wrong... I think the Fusion hybrid is slick and a bar that the Malibu should be shooting for... The Taurus is leaps above the Impala.. but the MKS is not as good as the Lacrosse.

Ecoboost??? Come on. It's a marketing scheme similar to "HEMI." I still prefer Ecotec, I still prefer the Small Block
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
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I wish there was a place where you guys could debate these hot topics and not get reprimanded or infractioned. I enjoy reading the hot debates and learn a lot from them. Maybe they don't belong in a for topic, but there should be like a "flamewars" area where these types of topics could be moved to and then people could choose to read them or not and then everyone would be happy!
I agree, An area where you know what you'll get if you go there with advance warning. Maybe an age verification and anything goes from there. I don't see any reason for censorship amongst adults. If you don't like it leave. I guess the reason is due to affiliations with GM and they think it reflects on them poorly.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:42 PM   #12
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But that's the thing.. I'm not trying to FLAME anyone... I always post from a TRUE point of view... If anyone looks at the actual post they will see that what I'm posting is real.

and don't get me wrong... I think the Fusion hybrid is slick and a bar that the Malibu should be shooting for... The Taurus is leaps above the Impala.. but the MKS is not as good as the Lacrosse.

Ecoboost??? Come on. It's a marketing scheme similar to "HEMI." I still prefer Ecotec, I still prefer the Small Block
Not allowed to mention politics is all I can see that is an issue in your post
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:44 PM   #13
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i agree as well, there was once a political section, but the problem became that people couldn't 'keep it in the thread'. it all started spilling into the other forum sections. Some people couldn't keep their cool.
I'd be afraid of a re-happening of that. Where the hot debate spills over into General Discussion. some people just can't keep their cool and debate the topics in the correct place
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:53 PM   #14
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Not allowed to mention politics is all I can see that is an issue in your post

I changed that... and thanx for the warning...
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:57 PM   #15
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Huh? The reason they wanted to sell them, is because the financial losses incurred by "killing" them, is monumental!! They learned their lesson the hard way with Oldsmobile....

I guess I don't understand why you posted that.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:11 PM   #16
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No reason to close this thread...not sure what all the "IBTL"s are for...

Good points, and an interesting perspective. There's no denying that Ford has improved their lineup. And of all the companies outside of GM -- I wish them the best!! But -- you make good points...particularly on "Ecoboost". Ford has done a fantastic job enthralling the car world with their hype.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:13 PM   #17
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No reason to close this thread...not sure what all the "IBTL"s are for...

Good points, and an interesting perspective. There's no denying that Ford has improved their lineup. And of all the companies outside of GM -- I wish them the best!! But -- you make good points...particularly on "Ecoboost". Ford has done a fantastic job enthralling the car world with their hype.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:34 PM   #18
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i misread your last section which totally changed the tone of the your entire post... i apologize.

i TOTALLY agree on Ford being a 'hype machine', everyone's talking about them, and except for the fusion selling well, the new Taurus, and some small rumblings of a Coyote 5.0 for the mustangs, it's alot of talking.

GM is going to be exciting to watch over the next few short years, there's a ton of new products on the way, seems like a complete redesign of the product line. Marketing is they key, they're building spectacular products, but public perception is still against them somewhat. If they market these products right, this is a gigantic Leap in the right direction.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:36 PM   #19
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Cmicasa, we have a name for the compact Buick now...

Verano.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:50 PM   #20
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I think that a lot of the talk about Ford is due to their having a lot of goodwill. They've done a terrific job at marketing their new cars, but even more so than that, I think they are getting a lot of good press from the media and the public due to their not taking bailout money. I have a friend of mine who owns several dealerships, one of which is a ford, and he says that that has paid off huge dividends for them.

I hope that the Chevy Volt is the fuel for GM that will set their rocket back on fire. If it is all that I hope it can be, then this could really be something that starts a long prosperous run for GM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:51 PM   #21
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ford is on a roll because it didnt go bankrupt like a certain company did. this is reason enough to say on a roll.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:54 PM   #22
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Does anyone else here think that the Lincoln lineup looks repulsive and dated?
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
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ford is on a roll because it didnt go bankrupt like a certain company did. this is reason enough to say on a roll.
Why are you here?

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Does anyone else here think that the Lincoln lineup looks repulsive and dated?
MKS and MKZ look all right. MKT looks awful, MKX is a rebadged Edge, Navigator looks horrible now.

Mercury is completely pointless.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:57 PM   #24
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ford is on a roll because it didnt go bankrupt like a certain company did. this is reason enough to say on a roll.
but they did mortgage everything.......
no one seems to have noticed that.


just because bankruptcy is a scarier word, the media made a huge deal with GM and Chrysler.
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:00 PM   #25
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I think in this day and age we should all as americans being rooting for chevy and ford to make it. We don't have much else left. Dodge already went to the outsiders and is not looking like it's ever going to return to what we once knew it as. I say go chevy , go ford do what ever it takes. They both make some great cars right now and they both have issues left to deal with.
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