Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Circle-D
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Members Area > General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-08-2009, 12:02 AM   #1
returnofcc
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2008 VW GTI
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 305
Aluminum vs Polymer car bodies

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoTToN View Post


150k and thats the design you get? nooooooooo thanks
Lol, you are just too funny. Atleast the body is made out of aluminum, unlike this other 100k car...
returnofcc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 11:29 AM   #2
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 23,085
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofcc View Post
Lol, you are just too funny. Atleast the body is made out of aluminum, unlike this other 100k car...
which other 100k car?
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
__________________

Camaro Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 12:32 PM   #3
MrIcky

 
MrIcky's Avatar
 
Drives: Dodge Ram Megacab & Cobalt SS
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boise
Posts: 1,536
LOL I'd take bets...ZR1?

For the record, there is nothing inherently great about aluminum body panels. They're harder to repair and easier to damage unless you make them thicker-which negates the weight advantage. I don't have anything against aluminum either, but when I hear something is made out of aluminum- I shrug and feel pity for the poor body guy if something goes wrong. If you've ever done time in a body shop, you'd understand.
MrIcky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 12:52 PM   #4
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 26,460
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIcky View Post
LOL I'd take bets...ZR1?

For the record, there is nothing inherently great about aluminum body panels. They're harder to repair and easier to damage unless you make them thicker-which negates the weight advantage. I don't have anything against aluminum either, but when I hear something is made out of aluminum- I shrug and feel pity for the poor body guy if something goes wrong. If you've ever done time in a body shop, you'd understand.
Body panels? Agreed...but an underlying spaceframe? Fiberglass/carbon fiber body panels combined with an aluminum frame is a killer weight-beating combination. That's the reason the Z06 weighs hundreds of pounds less than a 370z...with heavier...everything!
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.

Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 01:09 PM   #5
MrIcky

 
MrIcky's Avatar
 
Drives: Dodge Ram Megacab & Cobalt SS
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boise
Posts: 1,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Body panels? Agreed...but an underlying spaceframe? Fiberglass/carbon fiber body panels combined with an aluminum frame is a killer weight-beating combination. That's the reason the Z06 weighs hundreds of pounds less than a 370z...with heavier...everything!
I am refering only to:

"Lol, you are just too funny. Atleast the body is made out of aluminum, unlike this other 100k car..."

to which DGthe3 replied:

"which other 100k car?"

I wasn't knocking the ZR1- I was just making a bet on which car was being referred to. Sorry I wasn't clear. I have no issues with 'Vette repairability.
MrIcky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 04:02 PM   #6
returnofcc
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2008 VW GTI
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIcky View Post
LOL I'd take bets...ZR1?

For the record, there is nothing inherently great about aluminum body panels. They're harder to repair and easier to damage unless you make them thicker-which negates the weight advantage. I don't have anything against aluminum either, but when I hear something is made out of aluminum- I shrug and feel pity for the poor body guy if something goes wrong. If you've ever done time in a body shop, you'd understand.
Yes, that was the car I was talking about. And I don't think that the aluminum body panels on the porsche are easier to damage than the body panels on the zr1. If you have proof to back that up, I would like to see it.
And I wasn't talking in performance terms either. As dragoneye and you both pointed out, aluminum is heavier. Not everything about a Porsche has to be built with performance in mind. It's about build quality. I know if I paid 100k for a car, I would be disappointed to find out that the entire body is made of plastic. That's precisely why Porsche is what they are. They aren't solely dedicated to performance, even though they excel in that also...
returnofcc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 04:46 PM   #7
MrIcky

 
MrIcky's Avatar
 
Drives: Dodge Ram Megacab & Cobalt SS
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boise
Posts: 1,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofcc View Post
Yes, that was the car I was talking about. And I don't think that the aluminum body panels on the porsche are easier to damage than the body panels on the zr1. If you have proof to back that up, I would like to see it.
And I wasn't talking in performance terms either. As dragoneye and you both pointed out, aluminum is heavier. Not everything about a Porsche has to be built with performance in mind. It's about build quality. I know if I paid 100k for a car, I would be disappointed to find out that the entire body is made of plastic. That's precisely why Porsche is what they are. They aren't solely dedicated to performance, even though they excel in that also...
Aluminum panels ARE easier to damage and harder to repair. I only have my 2 years in autobody (ICAR certified) and 10 years in the insurance industry to offer as proof.

Aluminum has 3 issues in body panels. The first is it's a relatively soft metal, so equal impacts will do more damage to the aluminum then steel (I'll talk about Corvette in a second). Second is when it is damaged, it has a tendency to stretch and it has low 'memory' compared to steel. Therefore it's significantly harder to hammer and dolly it back to happiness. 3rd, it doesn't weld the same as steel, it's perfectly weldable- but you are going to need a more experienced welder-so more expensive.

Now in the case of the plastic panels on the newer vettes, they can actually take low grade type incidents without even getting damaged- like door dings and shopping carts. Minor repairs can be done almost like fiberglass repair but with a different resin that's a little more flexible, or with special filler that you put some mat on for strength. Almost all the panels are bolt-on though.

Carbon fiber repair in a painted non-structural area is almost exactly like repairing fiberglass sheet (non chop). You back the area with netting, then you grind a surface and you overlay carbon fiber onto the cleaned and ground area and resin it. If it's a non painted area, you have to replace it because of the way it looks- but again, it just bolts on. Carbon fiber has some sort of voodoo about it which is probably appropriate for structural stuff, but it's not that hard to work with for regular parts. It really is pretty much high tech fiberglass. I've made clipboards, speaker boxes, I covered a PC case with it, etc.

I don't know how the front end of the Panamera, but I'll tell you the front end of a 911 is a nightmare in a crash. The entire front has a trapezoidal 1 piece tub that is bonded (so you can't fix it with welding as it changes the engineering). A moderate front end hit on a 911 is over-the-top expensive.

But let me say in it's defense, the 911 GT3 is one of my favorite cars on the face of the planet- but there's reasons Corvettes have relatively cheap insurance rates besides just having elderly drivers (I kid).
MrIcky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 04:52 PM   #8
returnofcc
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2008 VW GTI
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIcky View Post
Aluminum panels ARE easier to damage and harder to repair. I only have my 2 years in autobody (ICAR certified) and 10 years in the insurance industry to offer as proof.

Aluminum has 3 issues in body panels. The first is it's a relatively soft metal, so equal impacts will do more damage to the aluminum then steel (I'll talk about Corvette in a second). Second is when it is damaged, it has a tendency to stretch and it has low 'memory' compared to steel. Therefore it's significantly harder to hammer and dolly it back to happiness. 3rd, it doesn't weld the same as steel, it's perfectly weldable- but you are going to need a more experienced welder-so more expensive.

Now in the case of the plastic panels on the newer vettes, they can actually take low grade type incidents without even getting damaged- like door dings and shopping carts. Minor repairs can be done almost like fiberglass repair but with a different resin that's a little more flexible, or with special filler that you put some mat on for strength. Almost all the panels are bolt-on though.

Carbon fiber repair in a painted non-structural area is almost exactly like repairing fiberglass sheet (non chop). You back the area with netting, then you grind a surface and you overlay carbon fiber onto the cleaned and ground area and resin it. If it's a non painted area, you have to replace it because of the way it looks- but again, it just bolts on. Carbon fiber has some sort of voodoo about it which is probably appropriate for structural stuff, but it's not that hard to work with for regular parts. It really is pretty much high tech fiberglass. I've made clipboards, speaker boxes, I covered a PC case with it, etc.

I don't know how the front end of the Panamera, but I'll tell you the front end of a 911 is a nightmare in a crash. The entire front has a trapezoidal 1 piece tub that is bonded (so you can't fix it with welding as it changes the engineering). A moderate front end hit on a 911 is over-the-top expensive.

But let me say in it's defense, the 911 GT3 is one of my favorite cars on the face of the planet- but there's reasons Corvettes have relatively cheap insurance rates besides just having elderly drivers (I kid).
Ok, but let me ask with a hypothetical. Lets say a dodge ram truck rams into a 911 and a corvette at 50mph. Which car will be more damaged (NOT WHICH CAR WILL COST MORE TO REPAIR).
I am not asking this question to be a smart***, I am actually curious.
returnofcc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 04:53 PM   #9
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 23,085
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofcc View Post
Yes, that was the car I was talking about. And I don't think that the aluminum body panels on the porsche are easier to damage than the body panels on the zr1. If you have proof to back that up, I would like to see it.
And I wasn't talking in performance terms either. As dragoneye and you both pointed out, aluminum is heavier. Not everything about a Porsche has to be built with performance in mind. It's about build quality. I know if I paid 100k for a car, I would be disappointed to find out that the entire body is made of plastic. That's precisely why Porsche is what they are. They aren't solely dedicated to performance, even though they excel in that also...
First off, carbon fibre and fibreglass are not plastics. Jermey Clarkson knows how to entertain, but his technical knowledge is either selective or simply lacking.

Deformation is easier with a sheet of metal than with a polymer. There are several reasons for this. The omnidirectional laticework of polymer materials distributes impact loads over a wider area. The resiliency of the polymers themselves allow it to bend and yield at a microscopic level before returning to their original shape. Metals are fairly weak in compressive loading. They will easily buckle under load and become permanently deformed. Some wrongfully believe aluminum is stronger than steel, because of its strength to weight ratio. In fact its weaker than steel for the same sized piece, its also significantly lighter. They use roughly an equal volume of material that weighs a lot less because the strength of steel is often overkill.

German companys have always been known to deliver precision but rarely able to build something durable.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
__________________

Camaro Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:04 PM   #10
returnofcc
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2008 VW GTI
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
First off, carbon fibre and fibreglass are not plastics. Jermey Clarkson knows how to entertain, but his technical knowledge is either selective or simply lacking.

Deformation is easier with a sheet of metal than with a polymer. There are several reasons for this. The omnidirectional laticework of polymer materials distributes impact loads over a wider area. The resiliency of the polymers themselves allow it to bend and yield at a microscopic level before returning to their original shape. Metals are fairly weak in compressive loading. They will easily buckle under load and become permanently deformed. Some wrongfully believe aluminum is stronger than steel, because of its strength to weight ratio. In fact its weaker than steel for the same sized piece, its also significantly lighter. They use roughly an equal volume of material that weighs a lot less because the strength of steel is often overkill.

German companys have always been known to deliver precision but rarely able to build something durable.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Porsche bodies made from steel, aluminum, and magnesium...
returnofcc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:04 PM   #11
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 23,085
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofcc View Post
Ok, but let me ask with a hypothetical. Lets say a dodge ram truck rams into a 911 and a corvette at 50mph. Which car will be more damaged (NOT WHICH CAR WILL COST MORE TO REPAIR).
I am not asking this question to be a smart***, I am actually curious.
In this case, it won't matter too much. A 3 ton vehicle moving at 50 mph is going to obliterate a sports car weighing little more than half as much. Most crash testing is against a similarly sized vehicle going at 35 mph. The scenario you provide means the truck will have 4x the kinetic energy those cars typically experience in testing. But a base or Grand Sport Corvette with its steel space frame would probably fare better than a 911. Not sure how a Z06 or ZR1 with their aluminum frame would compare against the 911. Still worse than the base Corvette.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
__________________

Camaro Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:05 PM   #12
MrIcky

 
MrIcky's Avatar
 
Drives: Dodge Ram Megacab & Cobalt SS
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boise
Posts: 1,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofcc View Post
Ok, but let me ask with a hypothetical. Lets say a dodge ram truck rams into a 911 and a corvette at 50mph. Which car will be more damaged (NOT WHICH CAR WILL COST MORE TO REPAIR).
I am not asking this question to be a smart***, I am actually curious.
The 911 will be more damaged almost for sure. The bumper on a Ram bolts directly to a ladder frame and sits above the primary impact zones for the 911 so the Ram will crush it-it will basically go right over the pieces of the 911 that were designed to take a hit. Same thing can be said for the Ram and ANY sports car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
First off, carbon fibre and fibreglass are not plastics. Jermey Clarkson knows how to entertain, but his technical knowledge is either selective or simply lacking.

Deformation is easier with a sheet of metal than with a polymer. There are several reasons for this. The omnidirectional laticework of polymer materials distributes impact loads over a wider area. The resiliency of the polymers themselves allow it to bend and yield at a microscopic level before returning to their original shape. Metals are fairly weak in compressive loading. They will easily buckle under load and become permanently deformed. Some wrongfully believe aluminum is stronger than steel, because of its strength to weight ratio. In fact its weaker than steel for the same sized piece, its also significantly lighter. They use roughly an equal volume of material that weighs a lot less because the strength of steel is often overkill.

German companys have always been known to deliver precision but rarely able to build something durable.
LOL huh? JK
MrIcky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:07 PM   #13
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 23,085
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofcc View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Porsche bodies made from steel, aluminum, and magnesium...
Not sure how much magnesium they use in their car bodies. I know Porsche uses a lot of aluminum sheet metal, probably some steel depending on the vehicle.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
__________________

Camaro Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:08 PM   #14
returnofcc
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2008 VW GTI
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIcky View Post
The 911 will be more damaged almost for sure. The bumper on a Ram bolts directly to a ladder frame and sits above the primary impact zones for the 911 so the Ram will crush it-it will basically go right over the pieces of the 911 that were designed to take a hit. Same thing can be said for the Ram and ANY sports car.



LOL huh? JK
Wait, then how do you know the 911 will be damaged more. Won't the Ram hit over the impact zones for the corvette also?
returnofcc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:08 PM   #15
MrIcky

 
MrIcky's Avatar
 
Drives: Dodge Ram Megacab & Cobalt SS
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boise
Posts: 1,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
In this case, the it won't matter too much. A 3 ton vehicle moving at 50 mph is going to obliterate a sports car weighing little more than half as much. Most crash testing is against a similarly sized vehicle going at 35 mph. The scenario you provide means the truck will have 4x the kinetic energy those cars are typically tested against. But a base or Grand Sport Corvette with its steel space frame would probably fare better, than a 911. Not sure how a Z06 or ZR1 with their aluminum frame would compare against the 911. Still worse than the base Corvette.
I don't know about this-they both have racing derived frames. I'd actually guess that they'd be equally f***'ed- however they have good occupant compartments so the drivers would still walk away from both.
MrIcky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:09 PM   #16
returnofcc
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2008 VW GTI
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
Not sure how much magnesium they use in their car bodies. I know Porsche uses a lot of aluminum sheet metal, probably some steel depending on the vehicle.
Fair enough, I was just taking it from their specs on the Panamera.
http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/09...ions_chart.pdf
returnofcc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:10 PM   #17
MrIcky

 
MrIcky's Avatar
 
Drives: Dodge Ram Megacab & Cobalt SS
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boise
Posts: 1,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofcc View Post
Wait, then how do you know the 911 will be damaged more. Won't the Ram hit over the impact zones for the corvette also?
OH wait, I'm sorry, I misread the question- I don't know why- for some reason Ram vs 911 would be stuck in my head. I don't know which one would be more damaged- 50 mph front end collision Ram vs either means the sports cars are totalled. Totalled is totalled.
MrIcky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
From my first car to my dream car... MissingtheMrs. 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 21 04-11-2011 11:20 PM
What's considered a Muscle Car? SyN General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 125 09-25-2010 01:04 AM
The first week with un-pink camaro! (a review with pics) pinkcamaro10 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 31 07-02-2009 08:54 PM
2010 SMS Mustang TFord General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 19 01-22-2009 12:00 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.