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Old 11-17-2009, 02:21 AM   #1
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thinking bout installing springs my self

should i not? im not sure if i could do it but i dont want to pay some crazy price to have it done

so what do i need to know?
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top 10 reason why real men drive stick.

10. A manual transmission is the ultimate in control
9. You can use automotive jargon and not sound like a total tool
8. You can't spell "manual" without "man"
7. Manual transmissions prove you can do more than one thing at a time
6. You can't drift in an auto
5. You can't pull fancy moves in an automatic
4. You get better fuel economy with a stick
3. You’ll never look like a chump if you can drive stick
2. Manual transmission cars are faster
1. Women like a guy who is good with his hands.

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Old 11-17-2009, 02:31 AM   #2
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Look 'dis
http://www.ls1howto.com/index.php?article=23

edit: nevermind, you meant suspension. This link is for valve springs.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:58 PM   #3
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It's a job that can be completed in a driveway in roughly 3-4 hours. You'll need a good Jack, jack stands, strut spring compressor and basic hand tools.

Kind regards,
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:07 PM   #4
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thanks- my friends and i will attempt to do this
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top 10 reason why real men drive stick.

10. A manual transmission is the ultimate in control
9. You can use automotive jargon and not sound like a total tool
8. You can't spell "manual" without "man"
7. Manual transmissions prove you can do more than one thing at a time
6. You can't drift in an auto
5. You can't pull fancy moves in an automatic
4. You get better fuel economy with a stick
3. You’ll never look like a chump if you can drive stick
2. Manual transmission cars are faster
1. Women like a guy who is good with his hands.

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Old 11-17-2009, 03:36 PM   #5
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Is there anything other than alignment that needs to be done after a spring install?
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:38 PM   #6
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That's all for my car Alignment this Friday...I was told to let the car settle in a bit before the alignment. So I waited...200-300 miles or so.
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Js View Post
That's all for my car Alignment this Friday...I was told to let the car settle in a bit before the alignment. So I waited...200-300 miles or so.
Cool, ive seen some people post about Camber/Caster/Toe, i have no idea what those are, or who would be able to adjust them
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:57 PM   #8
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Yes, those are alignment terms. See this FAQ: http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoAlignment.dos

Discount Tire does not do alignments though...Your local Chevy dealer does and I was quoted around $108.
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffny09 View Post
should i not? im not sure if i could do it but i dont want to pay some crazy price to have it done

so what do i need to know?
i've lowered 3 camaro's so far, let me know if i can help you.

right off my head, youll need:

15/16 or 21mm wrench
24mm socket
7mm socket(to undo front swaybar,hold backup with 15mm wrench)
21mm socket
40,45 torx drive bits
15mm socket
18mm socket
15mm wrench
18mm wrench
10"-12" extension
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACK10 View Post
i've lowered 3 camaro's so far, let me know if i can help you.

right off my head, youll need:

15/16 or 21mm wrench
24mm socket
7mm socket(to undo front swaybar,hold backup with 15mm wrench)
21mm socket
40,45 torx drive bits
15mm socket
18mm socket
15mm wrench
18mm wrench
10"-12" extension
did you do the alignment right away, or as one of the other posts says let the car settle a little first ?
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:53 PM   #11
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There are several issues on alignments that need to to be considered when dropping the Camaro:

1. There is no camber alignment bolt in the front end. Therefore it becomes more of a challenge just to put it back into the same location.

2. When dropping the rear, we have found the rear camber adjustment becomes very limited and does not have enough throw to be able to put the rear cambers where we like to to promote best reduction in understeer.

Pedders makes 3 alignment kits for the Camaro:
1. A front kit that includes the camber adjuster bolt, and a set of eccentrics that will allow you to adjust front caster, which is not adjustable in OE configuration
2. A rear kit that includes new hardware to adjust the rear cambers and toes.
3. A kit that includes both front and rear.

The Pedders kits use lazer cut eccentrics that relocate the center hole to allow a far greater throw than OE and come with a life time warranty.

They are also cad plated for corrosion protection. Here is a picture of the full kit:


thanks
mike
dms
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:00 PM   #12
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I have been doing alignments for along time .I would put 200-300 miles on the car before the alignment to let them set because they all do.If you don't want to wait, ask the alignment shop if they will recheck it after a few miles or after about 30 days.They may have to touch it up a bit but you will be happier with it, not mention not ruining a set of tires.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:30 PM   #13
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How much is the whole kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dms View Post
There are several issues on alignments that need to to be considered when dropping the Camaro:

1. There is no camber alignment bolt in the front end. Therefore it becomes more of a challenge just to put it back into the same location.

2. When dropping the rear, we have found the rear camber adjustment becomes very limited and does not have enough throw to be able to put the rear cambers where we like to to promote best reduction in understeer.

Pedders makes 3 alignment kits for the Camaro:
1. A front kit that includes the camber adjuster bolt, and a set of eccentrics that will allow you to adjust front caster, which is not adjustable in OE configuration
2. A rear kit that includes new hardware to adjust the rear cambers and toes.
3. A kit that includes both front and rear.

The Pedders kits use lazer cut eccentrics that relocate the center hole to allow a far greater throw than OE and come with a life time warranty.

They are also cad plated for corrosion protection. Here is a picture of the full kit:


thanks
mike
dms
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:11 AM   #14
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Yes, +1 on the price. Then, will an alignment shop know what to do with these? The camber alignment bolts in the front end are obvious as I've seen the empty bolt hole.

thanks,
Michael J.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:11 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dms View Post
There are several issues on alignments that need to to be considered when dropping the Camaro:

1. There is no camber alignment bolt in the front end. Therefore it becomes more of a challenge just to put it back into the same location.

2. When dropping the rear, we have found the rear camber adjustment becomes very limited and does not have enough throw to be able to put the rear cambers where we like to to promote best reduction in understeer.

Pedders makes 3 alignment kits for the Camaro:
1. A front kit that includes the camber adjuster bolt, and a set of eccentrics that will allow you to adjust front caster, which is not adjustable in OE configuration
2. A rear kit that includes new hardware to adjust the rear cambers and toes.
3. A kit that includes both front and rear.

The Pedders kits use lazer cut eccentrics that relocate the center hole to allow a far greater throw than OE and come with a life time warranty.

They are also cad plated for corrosion protection. Here is a picture of the full kit:


thanks
mike
dms

So are you saying that without these you will not be able to get a TRUE alignment from a local shop due to the OE parts?
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:15 AM   #16
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Wonder how the dealer does the alignments then...
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:18 AM   #17
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Id like to know $ as well
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanius View Post
So are you saying that without these you will not be able to get a TRUE alignment from a local shop due to the OE parts?
I am about 90% done with a complete install procedure for them. Not hard to do.

The question is, how are poeple aligning the cars now? They are setting them to with the end of tolerances. BUT, there are alignments, and then there are alignments!! You can get them within numbers, and then you can get them within numbers that take total advantage of improving handling, and and reducing understeer.
Traditionally, with a drop coil, you are maxed in reduced camber to around the -1.- to -1.3 negative camber. With just coils only, rear camber should be in the 0 to -.5. We have tested this!!!!! and it works very well. With a more complete system, this is not where you should go.

For the rear kit: PDUSA5420 costs $150.99
https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...Code=PDUSA5420

For the front only kit: PDUSACAMFNT and costs $89.95
https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...de=PDUSACAMFNT

For the full kit front and rear: PDUSACAMFULL and costs $210
https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...e=PDUSACAMFULL

The bolts are high grade, and hand machined. The eccentrics are laser cut, and we double nut all of them so you do not have to replace nuts, and will be gaurenteed for as long as you own your Camaro.

Complete alignment specs for drop coils that we have testes that max out on reducing understeer, and overall performances will be given to our Pedders customers.

thanks
mike
dms
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:49 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by O-10maro View Post
did you do the alignment right away, or as one of the other posts says let the car settle a little first ?
right away, if you ride too long with it out of alignment, you get poor handling and may have some tire wear.

with the H&R springs, all THREE cars i've done were aligned perfect back to factory spec without any other add-ons. thats up to you if you want to spend money on the bolt kit., it would'nt hurt though, i 'm just saying the springs i used, it was'nt needed.

here is a pic of the torx bit.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:32 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACK10 View Post
right away, if you ride too long with it out of alignment, you get poor handling and may have some tire wear.

with the H&R springs, all THREE cars i've done were aligned perfect back to factory spec without any other add-ons. thats up to you if you want to spend money on the bolt kit., it would'nt hurt though, i 'm just saying the springs i used, it was'nt needed.

here is a pic of the torx bit.

Not t be argumentative, but the alignment cannot be perfect, but can get to the upper ends of spec. Perfect would reference taking advantage of specs to maximize on handling and good tire wear. Getting it just into spec can do neither.

mike
dms
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:00 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Not t be argumentative, but the alignment cannot be perfect, but can get to the upper ends of spec. Perfect would reference taking advantage of specs to maximize on handling and good tire wear. Getting it just into spec can do neither.

mike
dms
i hear ya
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:28 PM   #22
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So if my car will absolutely never see a track, then getting those bolts is not necessary right?
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:05 PM   #23
Aaron Pfadt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffny09 View Post
should i not? im not sure if i could do it but i dont want to pay some crazy price to have it done

so what do i need to know?
Jeff,

Lots of info and mis-info in this thread. You can certainly install the drop springs if you have experience with such things. The install is not trivial, but it does not require any special knowledge. The list of tools that Black10 makes is a good one.

This 'sales talk' about camber bolt kits is pretty overblown. The factory and dealer will both do the alignment the same way in the front. There is no eccentric bolt in the slotted location in the front, but there is a threaded hole in the strut that you put a bolt in and adjust until you achieve the correct camber.

The eccentric bolt is unnecessary for infrequent alignments. In fact, I just put a bolt in the adjuster hole and leave it there when I am switching out struts to make sure I get everything back in the same place.



In the rear, you can get back to factory specs with the stock eccentrics. I will certainly agree with Mike that there are alignments and there are good alignments, but that has to do only with the shop/tech that is doing the alignment, not the color of the eccentric bolts. The factory eccentrics will achieve a stock alignment with drop springs. Period. If you are racing the car, then you need something completely different than an eccentric anyhow. Just like on Corvettes, the eccentrics can slip under high cornering loads. We make a kit for the Corvette that eliminates the eccentrics. All of you folks that are going to be running race tires, we'll make one for the Camaro also. Look for that in the future.

-Aaron
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:06 PM   #24
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I have seen 3 Camaro that were dropped in the 1.5inch, and one at 2 inches. could not get less that -1.5 on one, -1.2 on the other, and -1.0 on the third. Now maybe this is just fine for the guy who is just looking to make a nominal improvement, and maybe that is OK for you as well. But when we are asked to make the maximum change and influence with different kits, then as you are aware, changing the rear cambers with just drop coils or coil overs only, and changing the rear cambers from a -1.5 to the -.5 range, will do an outstanding job of reducing the understeer issues, without having the benefit of sway bars and such. Also, those wanting to set up their vehicles for a drag race option, have no other options to reduce negative cambers. You can, in fact if properly set up, get your cambers to the +.5 range, so when you launch, you have a .00 camber in the rear.

Fortunately, there has not been much of a drift or pull concerns with the Camaro, as we have seen in the G8. But there are Camaros that do not track perfectly due to road crowning. In OE format, the only way to generate bias for road crown is to mess with front cambers. We prefer, for handling sake, to keep our cambers equal side to side. You cannot do this with the Camaro and make road crown bias adjustments on a OE Camaro setup

If someone is only interested again in a minor drop with the performance enhancement that will give, then it is fine. But if you can get a drop, and add an additional degree of caster, I am sure you will agree, an additional degree of caster is a great steering feel, and handling improvement. There are not detriments of adding 1 degree caster, only positives. It is again, just another process for making additional improvements, and maximizing on understeer, and body role reduction.


We started making this kit for the G8, because on the G8, the eccentrics are really bad, and strip out easily. The Camaro, however, uses a larger bolt and I do not think it will have the durability issues G8 has.

You should try one of these kits. They are much more HD than the OE units, and will give you more flexibility and durability in adjustments. We also resolve the concern about following GMs recommendation to replace the nut after every use.

The recommendations of rear alignments for limited upgrades has been tested by us in a significant way. In fact, we just did a OE SS2, changed the front and rear alignment to our system, which required the use of our bolt kit, and the handling was substantially improved.

As already stated, the kit is not in fact required in all cases to get the Camaro within GM's wide tolerances. But is very helpful, for those that want to maximize a minimal approach setup, to improve handling to the best that can be without wasting tires, and also to assist in road bias adjustment, while not using camber to do it. Now for the color, we cad plate the bolts for corrosion protection. Plus they look great as a sedondary effect.

As always, it is great having a good interchange with you.

take care

P.S.
Say hi to Dan Long for me.

mike
dms
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:52 PM   #25
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so...back to his initial question. Are there online instructions or video? Im familiar with lots of spring changes on jeeps and have done lifts on front ends with struts/springs. Is this easier or more difficult?
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