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Old 11-17-2009, 01:58 PM   #1
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Z/28- Road Course King

I have a question for you smaller liter, less HP, better suspension followers. Do you really think a TTV6 pushing 400 HP with a better suspension, how would that compete with even a GT500 on a road course? It seems most want to follow this tradition of it being a smaller motor, but this was only due to the fact of the racing restrictions imposed by the Trans-Am series that GM abided by that NO LONGER EXIST. If they still followed these now non-existent guidelines while everyone else made the best combination of power and handling to achieve this title of "Road Course King", do you really think this "traditional" Z/28 would compete?
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:04 PM   #2
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I think that some people think (justifiably) the GT500 isn't the target. I don't agree, but I think that's possible. Also, this is probably one of the most historical RPO codes in GM, and one of the most recognized. I think the time Z28 originated is also about the best time, in terms of power and performance, in Detriot. Z28 brings back those memories and images and I think many people can connect with that, either directly, or indirectly.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:06 PM   #3
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I think that some people think (justifiably) the GT500 isn't the target. I don't agree, but I think that's possible. Also, this is probably one of the most historical RPO codes in GM, and one of the most recognized. I think the time Z28 originated is also about the best time, in terms of power and performance, in Detriot. Z28 brings back those memories and images and I think many people can connect with that, either directly, or indirectly.
The GT500 may not be the target, but what would be? And I only even mentioned the GT500 because I would almost gurantee that a Z/28 as I have described above would lose to the current GT500 in a road course matchup.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:16 PM   #4
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Personally, I think GT500 IS the target and TT V6 is not the way they're going to go (that's what I hope...) However, given the 500 is about 3900 lbs., even if a TT V6 is about the same weight as SS, I entirely agree it's not going to get around. I think the current road test in MT (I think it was) where a lesser-powered HPE650 beat a Super Snake was quite interesting (to an extent) where it was pretty much handed it back side (I believe the tires were among the biggest reasons). A car with lesser power and weight can take on a bigger car with more weight (I don't purport to remember how much that HPE650 weighed) and win is a certain possiblity. Is it the way GM should go though? Can they make it work, given the rough specifications we're making comparisons with? I don't think so. If a TT V6 is going to be competitive, at the power levels we're comparing to, I think it needs to get down to at least 3500 lbs in weight for there to be a justifiable difference. Is that going to happen? I don't believe so, one bit. If you ask me what the quickest way to get to beat GT500 is, the most practically, and with much resemblance to the past, I think it's with the LSA and either the magneto' shocks or factory equivalent to a Pedders suspension set-up. Sorry - I can't see a V6, no matter TT or SC, in Z28. I could be wrong though... It wouldn't be the first time :(
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by radz282003 View Post
I can't see a V6, no matter TT or SC, in Z28. I could be wrong though... It wouldn't be the first time :(
I hope your not.... Nothing less than 8 Cylinders in a Z/28... JMO
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:38 PM   #6
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Personally, I think GT500 IS the target and TT V6 is not the way they're going to go (that's what I hope...) However, given the 500 is about 3900 lbs., even if a TT V6 is about the same weight as SS, I entirely agree it's not going to get around. I think the current road test in MT (I think it was) where a lesser-powered HPE650 beat a Super Snake was quite interesting (to an extent) where it was pretty much handed it back side (I believe the tires were among the biggest reasons). A car with lesser power and weight can take on a bigger car with more weight (I don't purport to remember how much that HPE650 weighed) and win is a certain possiblity. Is it the way GM should go though? Can they make it work, given the rough specifications we're making comparisons with? I don't think so. If a TT V6 is going to be competitive, at the power levels we're comparing to, I think it needs to get down to at least 3500 lbs in weight for there to be a justifiable difference. Is that going to happen? I don't believe so, one bit. If you ask me what the quickest way to get to beat GT500 is, the most practically, and with much resemblance to the past, I think it's with the LSA and either the magneto' shocks or factory equivalent to a Pedders suspension set-up. Sorry - I can't see a V6, no matter TT or SC, in Z28. I could be wrong though... It wouldn't be the first time :(
I agree with the GT500 being the target. That is the only thing left that the Camaro could go for. It's definitely possible for a lighter to beat a heavier car. However, we are looking at an over 140 HP difference here. It would take aproximately 3300 lb car to defeat another with such a huge horsepower deficit, and we all know this new Z/28 isn't going to weigh this much less than the current SS.
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:02 PM   #7
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Don't forget about the fuel economy issue. It could be that with upcoming CAFE requirements the gt500 in it's current form can't continue. Or maybe they aren't made in enough quantity to really upset that.

I like the idea of GM putting a camaro model out there that doesn't have a direct competetor in the mustang lineup. Too much of what's goig in now is a copy of what fords doing.
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:51 PM   #8
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Don't forget about the fuel economy issue. It could be that with upcoming CAFE requirements the gt500 in it's current form can't continue. Or maybe they aren't made in enough quantity to really upset that.

I like the idea of GM putting a camaro model out there that doesn't have a direct competetor in the mustang lineup. Too much of what's goig in now is a copy of what fords doing.
the TTv6 described wouldn't even meet the cafe avg. it would help gm's corperate avg by giving a number closer to 35. BUT the Z28 as a GT500 fighter would be a low volume car and the avg wouldn't be affected as much.

there is another mustang coming out with the ecoboost engine TTv6 engine. that could be the aim for this camaro that's been speculated on. but not a Z. . .not in the truest form of the Z would this be right. it may handle but it wouldn't have been built to win.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.

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Old 11-17-2009, 04:55 PM   #9
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I did'nt know the GT500 was made for a road coarse.
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:01 PM   #10
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I did'nt know the GT500 was made for a road coarse.
even if it wasn't it can handle pretty well.
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:12 PM   #11
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even if it wasn't it can handle pretty well.
Right. I was just pointing that out, because I thought the subject was a little misleading.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:37 PM   #12
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I have a question for you smaller liter, less HP, better suspension followers. Do you really think a TTV6 pushing 400 HP with a better suspension, how would that compete with even a GT500 on a road course? It seems most want to follow this tradition of it being a smaller motor, but this was only due to the fact of the racing restrictions imposed by the Trans-Am series that GM abided by that NO LONGER EXIST. If they still followed these now non-existent guidelines while everyone else made the best combination of power and handling to achieve this title of "Road Course King", do you really think this "traditional" Z/28 would compete?
A 400 hp V6 with better suspension won't stack up nearly as well as a 550 hp V8 with a better suspension. 150 hp is far more important here than 75 lbs. If the goal is 400 hp, why not just use the LS3/L99? They will weigh about the same as a twin turbo V6. The V8's in the Camaro are not 500 lb monsters, and a TT V6 won't be a 300 lb featherweight.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:40 PM   #13
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Right. I was just pointing that out, because I thought the subject was a little misleading.
You're missing the point of me even mentioning the GT500. The point is that you are right, the GT500 is not made to excel in the road course. My point is that the "traditional, road-course" Z/28 that I have described above (smaller displacement, smaller HP, better suspension, brakes, etc.) would not defeat even a GT500 in a road course. In other words, what is the point of building the "traditional" Z/28 when even a car (GT500) that isn't necessarily made for a road course could pull out a win?
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:41 PM   #14
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A 400 hp V6 with better suspension won't stack up nearly as well as a 550 hp V8 with a better suspension. 150 hp is far more important here than 75 lbs. If the goal is 400 hp, why not just use the LS3/L99? They will weigh about the same as a twin turbo V6. The V8's in the Camaro are not 500 lb monsters, and a TT V6 won't be a 300 lb featherweight.
Which is what I've been saying this whole time. Most people just assume by mentioning a high HP LSA would automatically mean it would pull terrible lap times. It's not like they aren't going to add a much better suspension to the Z/28...
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:45 PM   #15
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My point is that the "traditional, road-course" Z/28 that I have described above (smaller displacement, smaller HP, better suspension, brakes, etc.) would not defeat even a GT500 in a road course.
Well that really depends on waaaaaay to many "what ifs" to officially say....
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:46 PM   #16
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Which is what I've been saying this whole time. Most people just assume by mentioning a high HP LSA would automatically mean it would pull terrible lap times. It's not like they aren't going to add a much better suspension to the Z/28...
whp+wtq+suspension+great driver=fast car
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:48 PM   #17
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Why does a TTV6 have to exclude the possibility of a high-performance V8?
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:49 PM   #18
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Well that really depends on waaaaaay to many "what ifs" to officially say....
Do you honestly believe a 3800lb Camaro pushing 400HP, with a better suspension could pull out a win against a 4000lb 550 HP with a suspension to match it's power? It's not like if you turn the thing you'd start rolling...
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:51 PM   #19
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Why does a TTV6 have to exclude the possibility of a high-performance V8?
exactly why I would like to see this is because of the ecoboost. just not as a z28. and to be honest I don't think it would be the Z. but yea. lol. who knows.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:52 PM   #20
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My point is that the "traditional, road-course" Z/28 that I have described above (smaller displacement, smaller HP, better suspension, brakes, etc.) would not defeat even a GT500 in a road course. In other words, what is the point of building the "traditional" Z/28 when even a car (GT500) that isn't necessarily made for a road course could pull out a win?
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Well that really depends on waaaaaay to many "what ifs" to officially say....
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Do you honestly believe a 3800lb Camaro pushing 400HP, with a better suspension could pull out a win against a 4000lb 550 HP with a suspension to match it's power? It's not like if you turn the thing you'd start rolling...

I was going by the "smaller displacement, smaller HP etc etc.... You didnt give specifics in that
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:52 PM   #21
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Do you honestly believe a 3800lb Camaro pushing 400HP, with a better suspension could pull out a win against a 4000lb 550 HP with a suspension to match it's power? It's not like if you turn the thing you'd start rolling...
depends on driver and gearing and tires. . . .

but lets just say the drivers are equal the gearing and tires are matched to the cars performance maximums. the 550 hp car would win.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:55 PM   #22
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depends on driver and gearing and tires. . . .

but lets just say the drivers are equal the gearing and tires are matched to the cars performance maximums. the 550 hp car would win.
I would add that displacement and boost would be considerations due to the forced induction.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:57 PM   #23
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I would add that displacement and boost would be considerations due to the forced induction.
that's why I had the ... to indicate more variables that I wasn't thinking of. lol
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:58 PM   #24
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depends on driver and gearing and tires. . . .

but lets just say the drivers are equal the gearing and tires are matched to the cars performance maximums. the 550 hp car would win.
Now would the 550hp car still win if you dropped the other car down to say... about 3600lbs?
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:59 PM   #25
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Now would the 550hp car still win if you dropped the other car down to say... about 3600lbs?
lol. darn it the 3600 lb car just blew a gasket. due to it being a TT v-6 and being beatin on.
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