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Old 11-22-2009, 12:06 AM   #1
Frank in MD
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Dealer bashing

Hello Admin, and mods.

Maybe I'm in the minorty, but there seems to be a lot of anti-dealer sentiment here that isn't being addressed.

I'm not even going to guess how many private messages and reported posts cross your inboxes every day.... and for the record, I don't like the idea of creating this thread. I'm only doing it because as a representitive of my dealer, our rep can easily be damaged here.

I doubt that sales people and dealers will receive much sympathy, but I think people should think twice and reread some of the posts they make when saying things about sales people and dealers.

Much like the rest of the forum members here. I am excitied endlessly by the new Camaro, and hope to own one someday. I post here to both promote my dealer, and to keep up to date w/ new info, and I try to share what I know.

On several occassions, I've been treated harshly for no discernable reason. I hesitate to bring it up so much because I hate being the person crying "that Sally pulled my hair again". I only do it when I feel that something is recklessly out of line.

Not all dealers are bad people, and some folks need to lighten up IMO.

I like posting here, but it's been tough lately holding my tounge. Little help out would be appreciated.

"Can't we all just get along?"
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Mods: 3" Flowmaster American Thunder Catback (Installed @ Auto Italia). OEM strut tower bar (self). ORACLE SMD sidemarker lights, ARH shorties. CAI Inc cold air. Elite Engineering catch can. Factory Cats, No tune (T&T Performance). 22" Vossen CV3 - Nitto NT420S 265/35/22 front 295/30/22 rear. Pfadt Inverted coil over system. lowered .5". ZL1 Rear Sway Bar.
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:41 AM   #2
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I suggest this. It is what I did ....

1 ) read on here for about 6 months before you join.

2) join... and then read again for another 3 months.

3) Read and understand every scrap on material GM puts out.

4) when you post ...ask for info. There is a wealth of information on here and you will find it here BEFORE your sales manager gives it to you (if ever)

Many who chimed in without preparation left with their tail between the legs.

Many owners have more reference material than some dealers and most salesmen. Like all things in the world ...you have to pay your dues.
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:15 AM   #3
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Well it helps the average Joe. I think if a dealer gives you S$*! service then by all means let it be known... Dealership are like most people and care very much about money. If you get bad service tell people and hurt the dealer where it hurts most. I'm all for letting people know about good places, but there is just to many shady dealers out there... THAT IS A FACT

It should keep dealerships on there toes.... Which i think is good
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:41 AM   #4
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Well it helps the average Joe. I think if a dealer gives you S$*! service then by all means let it be known... Dealership are like most people and care very much about money. If you get bad service tell people and hurt the dealer where it hurts most. I'm all for letting people know about good places, but there is just to many shady dealers out there... THAT IS A FACT

It should keep dealerships on there toes.... Which i think is good
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:58 PM   #5
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It's the "11 to 3" principle in real life! If you get bad service you tell 11 people, if you get good service you tell 3 people. With as many members that are on this site - bad service can become a wildfire in a heartbeat.

People have a right to vent, some do it less nice then others. No different then anything else.
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Old 11-22-2009, 09:32 PM   #6
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I started it. I'm also not sorry.

The dealers that have joined this forum tend to be very respectful and pursue customers with facts and an eagerness to make people happy. That coincides nicely with the whole purpose of any enthusiast site. We want to make the most of our enthusiasm, and dealers who respect this without the reckless pursuit of sales commissions earn the devotion of our enthusiasts here at Camaro5.

That's the good news. On the other hand, we have to consider why people can seem unbalanced with their strong bias against dealers—perhaps even salespeople in general. We will spend more money in our lives on our cars than anything else. Our homes cost a lot, but we tend to buy just one of those on average. We spend more on fuel, maintenance, repairs, cosmetics, performance, luxury, and replacement in our lifetimes in the area of transportation than anything else. Food costs less than fuel. Homes average a little less than a lifetime of new and used cars. We spend a lot on cars. As a result, we don't want to have to pay extra for nothing. A lot of dealers have an interest in that money and look for opportunities to exploit people for worthless add-ons, like asphalt coating or 5-year wax treatments. These high-profit items have ruined the good reputations of a lot of dealers. Good dealers should be concerned—not with the disrespect they receive from customers but with the source—with bad dealers damaging their reputations. The culture of car business is very good when it comes to aftermarket parts, but the original market requires people to buy cars from self-interested small businesses and their corresponding self-interested salespeople. As a result, people are forced to buy from sales departments with little loyalty to the manufacturer. GM wants buyers to be happy with the cars, but people are constantly unhappy with the process.

Of course, this is with exceptions. There are good dealers out there. You came to Camaro5, so we already like you more than most of the dealers we discuss on here. As long as you don't price-gouge, don't avoid warranty claims, and do take care of our cars, we like you. It's not a lot to ask, but for so many dealers it seems impossible.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:44 AM   #7
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It's come to a point where we are satisfied to get a little hosed by one dealer than a lot hosed by another. I only wish I could find a guy who would be honest. If you sell these wax deals and other little unnecessary things to people you are part of the problem. If not then good for you. Fact is MOST dealers do push crap that is not needed. And have stupid fees that are a jip. You are a salesman AT a dealer. You nay be a great salseman but you would be one of the few.

Hell, I paid about 500.00 in crap fees that my dealer required and actually felt GOOD about it because everyone else did it too.

If the buying process ended with the salseman, it would be so much better. But we all have to go fight and argue with the prick in the warranty office. My guy was a fellow Sooners fan and we got along till that. I left thnking he was an A-Hole.

THE CAR BUYING PROCESS SUCKS AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THE DEALERS.

Not necessarily the salesman but the DEALERS.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:31 AM   #8
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Maybe they should create a "Dealer feedback, opinions, experiences, etc" section.. This way you could share your experiences with the dealer and if one dealer gets enough reviews, then merge the all of the threads into one huge evaluation. Maybe even include a rating system of the said dealer. But no matter which way you look at it, you are talking about freedom of speech and people have the right to say anything about anybody, good or bad, as long as it isn't overly unnecessary or threatening.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:48 AM   #9
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Maybe they should create a "Dealer feedback, opinions, experiences, etc" section.. This way you could share your experiences with the dealer and if one dealer gets enough reviews, then merge the all of the threads into one huge evaluation. Maybe even include a rating system of the said dealer. But no matter which way you look at it, you are talking about freedom of speech and people have the right to say anything about anybody, good or bad, as long as it isn't overly unnecessary or threatening.
Well, to a certain extent. Being that this website belongs to Tran, he can determine exactly how far free speech gets you.

That said, I understand why dealers have a bad rap and kindof feel sorry for them about it. A lot of salesmen are just trying to earn a living - and, to be honest, that means making money for the dealers. Its the legitimate ones that earn my respect. And I don't mind paying MSRP (less any applicable discounts) for a car as long as the dealer is willing to give fair value for my trade, treats me nicely, etc.

But its like one local dealer (who shall remain unnamed) who treated my like trash when I was buying my last car.

Not only did they only want to give me 150 for my trade in (which I ended up selling privately for 10 times that, cash, to the first person to look at it), they had the nerve to try and charge me 4000 bucks over the price they were advertising online. When I found out about the internet advertisement and confronted them about it (before the deal had concluded, actually) they had the nerve to treat it like *I* was the one who was in the wrong (and yes, the saleman followed me all the way to my car berating me as I left. I left a particularly livid message on his managers voicemail about it, and sincerely hope he was fired on the spot) and have forever lost my business. Others on these forums have had good experiences with them, but you better bet your a** that I tell every single person I know not to do business there.

The point I'm trying to get at is that while I understand that not all dealers/salespeople are like that, there are enough of them to make me very wary when dealing with any dealer.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:03 PM   #10
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Well, I certainly didn't expect any sympathy, and I wasn't disappointed.

IMO, I think there is a large difference between keeping dealers on their toes and posting things like "are you still selling over MSRP" when my dealer has never done anything like that on any car. What sort of message does that send to people? Even the mere mention of impropriety, regardless of weather it's true or not, is more than enough to keep a potential client from considering a purchase from my dealer.

As potential clients, after seeing someone post "am I still marking up" in the thread I (a dealer) started, would you give me the benefit of the doubt? Probably not, right? Who here would really trust me after seeing that? Esp. considering the rep. dealers have. All I can do is deny it, but a lot of good it does me.

For the record, I have zero quarrel w/ unloading on a dealer that deserves the ire, but I do take exception to guilt by association. Not all sales people and dealers are bad.

There are instances where a forum member asks a question about something they heard from a dealer, and it is automatically assumed by forum members that "your dealership are liars, and idiots."

In one specific thread, I tried to share information on the difference between a dealer that buys a car at auction vs. the dealers that buy from GM and mark them up. For that, I was attacked and accussed of only caring about the almighty $. It was suggested that myself and my dealer learn from another dealer who posts here, on how to treat customers.

I would have felt justified to defend my point further than I did, but even at best trying to reason w/ people and explain my point would done even more damage. So I relented, and simply reported the posts to admin hoping for an admonishment for the offenders. The problem is in that case, most folks left that thread thinking that I was a typical salesman, and that I was defending all dealers who are out to just make the most amount of money, customer be damned.

BTW, there is a difference between those two scenarios. I understand that no one wants to pay more for a car then absolutely necessary, but one dealer is gouging, vs. the other just trying to sell a car. Let's not debate that again, ok? Just let it go.

BTW, sales people aren't making what you think they are on the Camaro. For example, here's are the details on a 2010 Camaro LT2 we had available, and recently sold:

MSRP $31,880.00
Invoice $30,771.86
$200 pack (dealer prep)
$908 commissionable gross x 20% = $181 deal which is @ my dealership LESS than what we call a minimum deal ($200 commission).

In that case I make the same no matter what it sells for, be it MSRP, supplier, or even employee pricing. It's a minimum deal @ MSRP.

Most sales people work a minimum 10 to 12 hour daily shift. Do we choose to do this for a living? Yes, we do. We do it because we love cars as much as you do. We get to meet different people everyday. Most importantly, were not stuck in an office all day doing fixed work for a fixed income. We get to control how many hours we work, and we also decide how much we want to make from year to year.

Where else would I ever get to drive a Z06 for informational purposes. LOL.

I'm not asking for pity, or that anyone feel sorry for dealers. We are the last enterprise that should ask for pity esp. after years of abuse, lies, and outright dishonesty toward customers.

I don't wanna beat a dead horse, I just want the benefit of the doubt. And please take a moment to think twice before posting, and to reread your posts.... esp. if it might hurt someone. I'm not out to be the thought police, or ask for a lockdown on dealer comments. Hardly. Just for folks to excersize a little tact, and that's all. Just because our track record is sketchy at best doesn't always mean every dealer is the devil incarnate.

How I really wish a few of my customers posted here.
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Mods: 3" Flowmaster American Thunder Catback (Installed @ Auto Italia). OEM strut tower bar (self). ORACLE SMD sidemarker lights, ARH shorties. CAI Inc cold air. Elite Engineering catch can. Factory Cats, No tune (T&T Performance). 22" Vossen CV3 - Nitto NT420S 265/35/22 front 295/30/22 rear. Pfadt Inverted coil over system. lowered .5". ZL1 Rear Sway Bar.

Last edited by Frank in MD; 11-23-2009 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:46 PM   #11
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Is it just a coincidence but all the car dealers that have tried to screw me on a deal are now out of business and all the dealers that have treated me with honesty and respect are still in business??? I would say there is no such thing as a coincidence in this case.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:49 PM   #12
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Last spring " Damien" ( NOT FROM 666) showed up on here.

He swore John O Sullivan was selling at MSRP.

I got flamed for smelling a rat.

Members ordered and at delivery months later found out it was MSRP plus manditory dealer options.............
for as much as 5000.00

You have only been here 3 weeks.

THERE are LOTS OF DEALERS here who have earned

They were here for the tough months in 08 and all of 09.

Everyone is a newbie at some point.
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:11 PM   #13
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Yep, registered for a short time, but I have lurked since last January. I saw where you suggested that people lurk for six months, and after registering wait another three. I have to say that your idea is unrealistic. If you feel strongly about it, maybe petition the admin about it. Otherwise, I would suggest that sort of policy to be a bit overzealous. After all, you can have someone go through that process, and still be an ass.

As far as your other point about some other dealer not honoring discounts. Great. and that has what to do w/ me, exactly? It's fine to be skeptical. Going into dealer threads and asking if we are still over MSRP, when Ourisman Rockmont has never done that is not fine.

The rules/respect thread says everyone is to be treated w/ a measure of respect, and to think before posting. It does not say respect everyone except dealers, and it also says nothing about earning respect, and to accept a ltd amount of hazing.

Treat me the same unless you have reason not to, that's fair I think.
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Mods: 3" Flowmaster American Thunder Catback (Installed @ Auto Italia). OEM strut tower bar (self). ORACLE SMD sidemarker lights, ARH shorties. CAI Inc cold air. Elite Engineering catch can. Factory Cats, No tune (T&T Performance). 22" Vossen CV3 - Nitto NT420S 265/35/22 front 295/30/22 rear. Pfadt Inverted coil over system. lowered .5". ZL1 Rear Sway Bar.

Last edited by Frank in MD; 11-23-2009 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:31 PM   #14
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I suggested that as a course of action to avoid stepping into S*%t. There have been members banned from here.

You and everyone else can do as you like.

Across North America all last winter and this spring dealers were telling walk in AND long time customers " NOT to believe anything they read on that site."

Now many of those same dealers have arrived here and find it a wonderful source of sales.

The dealers such RPO Z28, Camaro Scotty,Team Lyn and many more have earned the respect of the members here. They contributed and provided information when every scrap of info was devoured like raw meat when there were only 5000 members here.

Police, Fire Fighters, doctors, military may often get respect by affiliation.

It was the owners and general mangers before you that put car dealers in another group.

If course it could be worse ............you could be running for a national office.
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:37 PM   #15
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Hang in there Rockmont...

This is an awesome group of people here and they are not DUMB. They are pretty good at figuring out who the good dealers are and which ones aren't.

Stay around a while, keep posting and earn the respect you deserve. Helps A LOT if you're not just here to peddle metal but actually contribute to the forum and help people out.

IMO
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:36 PM   #16
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I was going to say that too.....Glad it came from a dealer.
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:51 PM   #17
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I know how you feel when you hear things about your company that isn't true. I'm in busines too and my competition loves to say things about my company because a lot of them worked for me at one time. But, I've been in business for over twenty years and our high level of service and technical expertise always shines through with what ever they say. My competition has come and gone, but were still here. So I would say to you , If you are an honest sales guy working for a dealer that gives fair deals and good service you will also out shine the haters and we will all see it. Be a good dealer and it will show.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:09 PM   #18
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The main issue is about the general negative bias against dealers including things like the common phrase "your dealer is an idiot". Thing is, for the most part this community is better informed than dealers. So when they come out and say that nobody will sell for MSRP, that the Camaro is only a limited run, or other nonsense, they rightfully get chewed up. You also said that members were treating you as if you had been selling over MSRP yourself. Seems cut and dry to me, if you were they're gonna be upset and you don't have much room to defend yourself. If not, explain that their claims are unjustified and you don't appreciate lies being spread. It might take a few posts, but eventually people will listen. Most of them will. Usually.

Anyway, if you find any attacks, don't hesitate to report the post (). We can't be everywhere all the time and may not even know something happened until days later, if at all. After receiving a reported post notification, we will look into it as quickly as possible.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:47 PM   #19
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No complaint w/ the "your dealer is an idiot" stuff, when it is warranted. I just wanted to increase awareness that there are real people on the other end of those barbs who's very livelyhood can be forever tainted.

I already knew that Camaro enthusiats would know more about the car than sales people. It's never a surprise when customers know more than the dealer on specific cars, as we have to learn not just all of our vehicles, but our competitors vehicles. Fans of specific vehicles like the Vette, and Camaro study the details of these cars. Only a fool thinks they possibly know more than the customers that love these cars.

As to the price thing, I understand why people don't believe it, as there is more than one Ourisman Chevrolet. My dealer, Ourisman Rockmont Chevrolet does not mark up, and never will. I can not give the same gaurantee about Bowie, or the Marlow Heights store. So, people who walk into one of those stores, and are justifably upset about ADM's see that I represent Ourisman, and they forget the where, and remember the what.
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Mods: 3" Flowmaster American Thunder Catback (Installed @ Auto Italia). OEM strut tower bar (self). ORACLE SMD sidemarker lights, ARH shorties. CAI Inc cold air. Elite Engineering catch can. Factory Cats, No tune (T&T Performance). 22" Vossen CV3 - Nitto NT420S 265/35/22 front 295/30/22 rear. Pfadt Inverted coil over system. lowered .5". ZL1 Rear Sway Bar.
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:46 PM   #20
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It's come to a point where we are satisfied to get a little hosed by one dealer than a lot hosed by another. I only wish I could find a guy who would be honest. If you sell these wax deals and other little unnecessary things to people you are part of the problem. If not then good for you. Fact is MOST dealers do push crap that is not needed. And have stupid fees that are a jip. You are a salesman AT a dealer. You nay be a great salseman but you would be one of the few.

Hell, I paid about 500.00 in crap fees that my dealer required and actually felt GOOD about it because everyone else did it too.

If the buying process ended with the salseman, it would be so much better. But we all have to go fight and argue with the prick in the warranty office. My guy was a fellow Sooners fan and we got along till that. I left thnking he was an A-Hole.

THE CAR BUYING PROCESS SUCKS AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THE DEALERS.

Not necessarily the salesman but the DEALERS.

... Out here in Northern Cal, it's depressing... I was with JLS and thought that they were REAL stand up guys... only to find out that they wanted an extra 4500 dollars worth of crap added to the car before they would sell it to me! I ended up going to Novato Chevrolet and STILL payed 1000 over MSRP...Those guys are awesome for the simple fact that they were straight forward from the git and the actual buying experience was flawless... because of that they have my respect... but seriously, when dealerships outright lie, or mark up 9000 dollars (Vallejo Chevrolet), you kind of have to expect people to look at you with a jaded eye... I definitely walked away from the whole experience feeling like paying a little more was WAY better than paying alot more... all thanks to shady dealers who were worried more about making a quick buck than making a life long customer..Just my two pennies
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:16 PM   #21
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Just the fact that you are here at this website reading these threads prove that you are one of the goodguys who docare. As The Blur stated. At least you are willing to read the threads, listen to what people say, and offer to help with suggestions put you way ahead! Ive had great experiances with my local GM dealer! The owner and the sales people are great folks who Im proud to know, and will go above and beyond to see that you are a satified customer for life. (Pearl Motors in Mexico, Mo)
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:13 AM   #22
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You could amend your signauture to include that the dealership you work for didn't price gouge or add paint sealent etc. . For an example, a dealer in KY, Rod Hatfield took a pre-order for a forum member, changed the color and priced it thousands of dollars over MSRP because it was going to be one of the first Camaros produced. She could have still purchased it, thousands of dollars over MSRP and the wrong color, but would you?
I will not say what dealer it was in Indy IN, because I think it was a shady salesman that was over selling by twice of what was coming in by October. You may already know what Coyle Chevrolet tried, well did to an extant, do to me.
BUT YOU COULD ALSO SEE MY FIRST POSTS WHERE I PRAISED SPRINGHURST CHEVROLET. I EVEN PUT IT ON MY BACK WINDOW THANKING THEM FOR MY CAMARO TO GET SOME ADVERTISMENT FOR THEM. I WAS ASKED SEVERAL TIMES, "DID YOU WIN IT?" YOU KNOW WHAT? DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING FROM A DEALER ON HERE THANKING ME FOR DOING THAT FOR A DEALER. NOPE JUST SOME !%&*%^ ABOUT BEING LUMPED TOGETHER WITH OTHERS.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/search...archid=3654437 I have had nothing but good things to say about the dealer I work with in getting my Camaro.

Last edited by PieNsky; 11-26-2009 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:11 AM   #23
diddiyo


 
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Originally Posted by cash84 View Post
Well it helps the average Joe. I think if a dealer gives you S$*! service then by all means let it be known... Dealership are like most people and care very much about money. If you get bad service tell people and hurt the dealer where it hurts most. I'm all for letting people know about good places, but there is just to many shady dealers out there... THAT IS A FACT

It should keep dealerships on there toes.... Which i think is good
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