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Old 11-23-2009, 06:05 PM   #1
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Unusual Engines

... So Spike mentioned the other day he was watching Mad Max, and that got me talking with him about the supercharger clutch and if it would actually work or not.

This thread is for those unusual engine ideas you may have that you'd like to share... And yes, you can even talk about DEI as long as you finally understand IT JUST DON'T WORK LIKE THAT

Anyone know what my avatar is?
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:13 PM   #2
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If you've never seen the movie, MAX had a clutch setup on his blower so he could turn it on and off. That's basically where we left off with our discussion, is it feasible?

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Old 11-23-2009, 07:53 PM   #3
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A clutched blower is possible, but in practice would probably be less effective as you would have to have enough clearance for air to get around the compressor when the blower was off. Your avatar looks like a constant pressure variable displacement hydraulic pump. Just a guess.
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:04 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derklug View Post
A clutched blower is possible, but in practice would probably be less effective as you would have to have enough clearance for air to get around the compressor when the blower was off. Your avatar looks like a constant pressure variable displacement hydraulic pump. Just a guess.
That's part of what we discussed, he'll be in here eventually and can tell you about his dual intake idea.



Link to my avatar if you'd like to know more about the amazing engineers of yesteryear.
The Trebert Axial Engine
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/museu...g/axial-IC.htm
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:31 PM   #5
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Mercedes Benz Kompressors have a clutch.
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:42 PM   #6
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I suppose with intake runners like a Ford 3.8 uses, you could run a seperate inlet path with a blower. Since you only need the blower occasionaly, it could help reduce parasitic draw. With the clutch controlled by the MAP sensor, you wouldn't even need a switch.
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldrocker View Post
Mercedes Benz Kompressors have a clutch.
Cool, I didn't know that. Bro's wife has the little roadster, I'll check it out next time I'm over
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Originally Posted by derklug View Post
I suppose with intake runners like a Ford 3.8 uses, you could run a seperate inlet path with a blower. Since you only need the blower occasionaly, it could help reduce parasitic draw. With the clutch controlled by the MAP sensor, you wouldn't even need a switch.
Parasitic loss would be the big draw for it, just below the 'cool' factor... Gotta have a switch tho, for showing off in the parking lot

How about seperate a/f tables in the ecu? Would it be necessary? If the blower was always switched at a certain load, I would think it could be tuned, but the switch idea probably complicates things.
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:22 PM   #8
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Run a MAP for blower on and off, and MAF for A/F. And yes, it would have to have a switch to overide the MAP. An engineer once told me that the auto/sport switch on auto suspensions was put in not for functionality, but because the focus group guys wanted it.
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:31 PM   #9
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Ogura clutched superchargers...

http://www.oguraclutch.co.jp/english.../sc_gaiyou.htm
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derklug View Post
Run a MAP for blower on and off, and MAF for A/F. And yes, it would have to have a switch to overide the MAP. An engineer once told me that the auto/sport switch on auto suspensions was put in not for functionality, but because the focus group guys wanted it.
Only thing better than a switch is a knob that goes from 1 to 10 with an 11 in red
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:40 PM   #11
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New GT500's come with the supercharger off from the factory. It is tuned to dump any boost out the bypass until the new owner puts a number of miles on it or a couple consecutive starts.
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Only thing better than a switch is a knob that goes from 1 to 10 with an 11 in red
No 11 in red, just an extra click
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleCarz View Post
New GT500's come with the supercharger off from the factory. It is tuned to dump any boost out the bypass until the new owner puts a number of miles on it or a couple consecutive starts.
When Isuzu came out with their turbo I-Mark, it limited boost untill you had 3000 miles. Owners used to come in and say that after their first oil change the car just woke up.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleCarz View Post
New GT500's come with the supercharger off from the factory. It is tuned to dump any boost out the bypass until the new owner puts a number of miles on it or a couple consecutive starts.
Interesting, but I want to see the clutch kick on and off
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No 11 in red, just an extra click

Quote:
Originally Posted by derklug View Post
When Isuzu came out with their turbo I-Mark, it limited boost untill you had 3000 miles. Owners used to come in and say that after their first oil change the car just woke up.
The same as the GT500 setup most likely?

I can see how this setup would work great on a marine application with a planing hull... Use the torque to get it on plane, then kick off the compressor to cruise.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
That's part of what we discussed, he'll be in here eventually and can tell you about his dual intake idea.



Link to my avatar if you'd like to know more about the amazing engineers of yesteryear.
The Trebert Axial Engine
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/museu...g/axial-IC.htm

at me for never asking what your avatar was. I thought it was some "piston gun" or something like that. that axial engine is freaking awesome!


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Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derklug View Post
When Isuzu came out with their turbo I-Mark, it limited boost untill you had 3000 miles. Owners used to come in and say that after their first oil change the car just woke up.
our owners are saying the same thing.... but there's a different reason for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Interesting, but I want to see the clutch kick on and off




The same as the GT500 setup most likely?

I can see how this setup would work great on a marine application with a planing hull... Use the torque to get it on plane, then kick off the compressor to cruise.

or to use it like nitrous. only you never have to refill the bottle




I gotta take care of a few things, I'll be back in a bit to comment more
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:42 AM   #16
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The Trebert cylinders rotated around the output shaft, crazy stuff. I remember a radial airplane engine that did that, too many issues to work around with a design like those, but those guys made them work!

That idea I mentioned. Have you ever seen a V8 where 2 of the cylinders acted as compressors for the other 6 cylinders? That make sense?
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:19 AM   #17
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The blower on the mad max engine was just for show though. It was spun up with a drill motor. But some superchargers can be clutched out as others have said, but I don't think the kind of blower on the Mad Max car can because there's no way to bypass it. You'd just be spraying gas down on top of the charger blades.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:48 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
The Trebert cylinders rotated around the output shaft, crazy stuff. I remember a radial airplane engine that did that, too many issues to work around with a design like those, but those guys made them work!

That idea I mentioned. Have you ever seen a V8 where 2 of the cylinders acted as compressors for the other 6 cylinders? That make sense?
I have seen mobile service trucks that use a cutout so the cylinder compresses air for air tools, but only on diesels. I don't think an engine would put out enough air to act as forced induction.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derklug View Post
I have seen mobile service trucks that use a cutout so the cylinder compresses air for air tools, but only on diesels. I don't think an engine would put out enough air to act as forced induction.
Since it would be a pump only, you would get 2 compressions for 4 strokes.
How many PSI does ~9.0-1 c.r. create? With no losses you would be raising each cyl. volume to ~170% of atmospheric pressure.... ~23psi intake pressure.

10psi boost. Or is my math flawed?
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Great Racing Quotes

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"I was doing fine until about mid-corner when I ran out of talent."
"Don't brake until you see God, just don't meet him"
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Since it would be a pump only, you would get 2 compressions for 4 strokes.
How many PSI does ~9.0-1 c.r. create? With no losses you would be raising each cyl. volume to ~170% of atmospheric pressure.... ~23psi intake pressure.

10psi boost. Or is my math flawed?
You are missing something. Lets say you have 8L of total displacement for your V8. The 6 cylinders providing power would draw in 6L of air at wide open throttle, if naturally aspirated. The two compressor cylinders could provide up to 4L of air per cycle combined ... this is bad. Not to mention the timing of the pulses wouldn't match the demand. Pressure would be provided every 180 degrees of rotation, yet required at intervals of 120 degrees. The engine would be starving for air. The only way I could see it working is if there were as many compressors as power cylinders, and two compressors were synced with each other to provide a double air charge. This charge would then be timed such that just as the compressor valves open, the intake valve opens on one of the cylinders. That would create roughly a 14 psi boost, yet with greater losses than with a regular roots type supercharger.
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