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Old 08-04-2008, 06:26 AM   #18
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Greg you really know your shit, I like you man.......lol
thanks. i try to share my knowledge as much as possible, usually to help, but sometimes to shut others up.

its hard fighting against all the ignorance in the world (and on this forum as of late)




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So us Swedes that have 95 octance standard, 98 premium won't have to worry about all this then, huh?
98...bastards...lol



unless your rating system is different than ours...
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Old 08-04-2008, 06:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
while computers in automobiles do self adjust to run on lower octane gas, thats whats hurting your performance. they cut back the spark timing to prevent detonation which means you dont start the combustion cycle till later in the rotation of the motor which means you arent reaching your full power potential

i spend 45 bucks to fill my car up (roughly) 14 gal tank, i fill up with 10-11 gal (cus i dont run my car down past 1/4 tank cus it can be detrimental to performance and the fuel pump). as ive stated before, i wont put 87 in my car. its a rare occasion that i'll even run 91 or... dare i say it 89.

93 for me baby
I'm with you 100%!!!
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Old 08-04-2008, 08:57 AM   #20
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When a bottle of octane boost (or snake oil as I call it) says 3 points it means from 89 to 89.3 not to 91. Total waste of money.
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:17 AM   #21
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I hope you all know why/how the computer knows to pull ignition and up the fuel/air ratio

KNOCK, that's right, the engine knock sensor, from preignition

it's NOT good, just because the engine is smart enough to retard ignition and richen the fuel does not mean it's good to run 87
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:58 AM   #22
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I would run 93 all day. however, even the vettes with trhe LS3 can run on 87, you jus lose some power. I don't remember who said it earlier, but the higher the octane rating, the WORSE fuel economy you get because it burns at a higher rate.

What we should all be hoping for is E85 capabilities, because that burns hotter than 93 and will give you some extra horses when using it.
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #23
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I would run 93 all day. however, even the vettes with trhe LS3 can run on 87, you jus lose some power. I don't remember who said it earlier, but the higher the octane rating, the WORSE fuel economy you get because it burns at a higher rate.

What we should all be hoping for is E85 capabilities, because that burns hotter than 93 and will give you some extra horses when using it.
wrong, e85 has less energy, it's ethanol based, you'll get worse mileage

you want to run the lowest octane fuel you can, without predetonation, any higher is a waste of money
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
When a bottle of octane boost (or snake oil as I call it) says 3 points it means from 89 to 89.3 not to 91. Total waste of money.
exactly right.... see post 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by mega View Post
I hope you all know why/how the computer knows to pull ignition and up the fuel/air ratio

KNOCK, that's right, the engine knock sensor, from preignition

it's NOT good, just because the engine is smart enough to retard ignition and richen the fuel does not mean it's good to run 87
knock = detonation... see post 15


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsenn View Post
I would run 93 all day. however, even the vettes with trhe LS3 can run on 87, you jus lose some power. I don't remember who said it earlier, but the higher the octane rating, the WORSE fuel economy you get because it burns at a higher rate.

What we should all be hoping for is E85 capabilities, because that burns hotter than 93 and will give you some extra horses when using it.

wait a sec... so you say that the higher octane rating, the worse fuel economy... e85 is effectively 100-105 octane rating... e85 users will spend the same amount if not more to run it over gasoline due to the fact that e85 tuned motors tend to run richer than gasoline. so what they think they are saving on gas at the pump, they are more than paying back on the road.

and when it comes to horsies, the only real time that e85 outshines regular gasoline is when the motor has a high enough compression ratio to make use of the higher octane level of e85. most other times e85 runs slightly less hp than gasoline.



and here's a nice coverage (by the epa) about e85s stats
http://www.epa.gov/air/caaac/mstrs/2006_10_dunham.pdf
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post


wait a sec... so you say that the higher octane rating, the worse fuel economy...
Different motor, but that has been my experience with my Cobalt SS/SC. I actually get better mileage with regular, but admittedly it is not scientific since I don't drive exactly the same every time, but it runs very nicely on regular, but I don't spend a ton of time in the upper part of the tach when I drive back and forth to work......
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:01 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by mega View Post
wrong, e85 has less energy, it's ethanol based, you'll get worse mileage

you want to run the lowest octane fuel you can, without predetonation, any higher is a waste of money


already touched on the first part...

and the second, you hit the nail on the head

Octane is defined as a fuel's resistance to knocking. There is no benefit if the octane is higher than what the engine needs. Engine knock occurs when fuel in a combustion chamber ignites before it should. This disrupts the engine's operation. But electronic knock sensors are now common and have nearly eliminated engine disruption.

The American Petroleum Institute says if you find that your car runs fine on a lower grade, there is no sense switching to premium. The Institute recommends following manufacturer's recommendation, but even those manufacturers say that it is more of a suggestion than a command (mainly cus a lot of people who buy cars that have a recommended 93 rating will still go and use 87 cus they arent pushing their car to its limits and arent worried about it).

but i will say this to any LT1/LT4 owners out there. our motors came with roughly 10.5-11.0 cr. thats high considering the cr's of the other vehicles produced in that time. too many times, ive had someone complain about their car bogging down, running rough, and just crapping out in general. i ask what fuel they are running, they say 87... well, there's the problem. 90% of them that switched to premium found the car running smoother and better overall. the other 10% had opti problems... go figure.

adding on that, the cr of todays motors that are rolling off the production line is going up every day. but with more advanced tuning and distinctive engine properties (ie.I.) it is more and more common to see high cr motors running 87 without problems.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:01 AM   #27
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wrong, e85 has less energy, it's ethanol based, you'll get worse mileage
Not wrong. In FI and high-compression applications; E85's natural ~103 Octane rating can have positive effects on performance. Mileage is a different story.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:03 AM   #28
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Different motor, but that has been my experience with my Cobalt SS/SC. I actually get better mileage with regular, but admittedly it is not scientific since I don't drive exactly the same every time, but it runs very nicely on regular, but I don't spend a ton of time in the upper part of the tach when I drive back and forth to work......


throw a turbo on it and run 3 tanks of e85...lol



that will net you some hp... not sure on mpg tho.
the main thing to keep in mind with e85 vs gasoline, is that gasoline gives you more bang (not necessarily for the buck tho) what would be cool is if they made a dual tank flex fuel vehicle that on acceleration would go off gasoline, but when cruising, would switch to e85....
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #29
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throw a turbo on it and run 3 tanks of e85...lol



that will net you some hp... not sure on mpg tho.
the main thing to keep in mind with e85 vs gasoline, is that gasoline gives you more bang (not necessarily for the buck tho) what would be cool is if they made a dual tank flex fuel vehicle that on acceleration would go off gasoline, but when cruising, would switch to e85....
Most of the time I drive for mileage, I would love to have the option of using E85, I don't expect better FUEL mileage, but of you look at your 19 gallon take there is less than 3 gallons of GASOLINE in the tank, even if it costs more its would be nice to use a renewable fuel (yes, it would be better if it didn't come from corn). Imagine walking up to Ed Begley and telling him you use less GASOLINE per tankful than his Prius does....The fact that it has higher octane and has the potential to deliver higher performance doesn't hurt either...
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:03 PM   #30
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Most of the time I drive for mileage, I would love to have the option of using E85, I don't expect better FUEL mileage, but of you look at your 19 gallon take there is less than 3 gallons of GASOLINE in the tank, even if it costs more its would be nice to use a renewable fuel (yes, it would be better if it didn't come from corn). Imagine walking up to Ed Begley and telling him you use less GASOLINE per tankful than his Prius does....The fact that it has higher octane and has the potential to deliver higher performance doesn't hurt either...

do a search for the sugarcane ethanol debate and read some of my posts about what needs to be done. e100 for instance
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:14 PM   #31
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Do E-85 pumps have a larger nozzle than Gasoline pumps? Since E-85 will ruin an engine not designed for it, there needs to be some safeguard to keep people from putting it into their regular cars. I know if they don't there are going to be many people kill their car because they buy the cheaper E-85 not knowing you are not supposed to use it in a car not designed for it.
right now regular is running about $3.60 where E-85 is only about $3.10.
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:21 PM   #32
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Someone would need to back me up on this, because I'm not sure...

but I do not believe that E85 will destroy your engine because of one or two tanks full. The biggest reason that E85 is limited to Flex-fuel vehicles is because E85 is corrosive to certain materials found in conventional vehicles. That's why Flex-fuel vehicles have different gas tanks, and different fuel lines, etc. But I believe than a 'normal' car will run on E85, maybe not well...but it won't destroy it right off the bat.


EDIT: Then there's also those big yellow fuel caps, and big yellow pump nozzles (that I've seen)...
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:32 PM   #33
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the e-85 nozzle at the gas station is the same size as regular fuel so you can put it in any vehicle by mistake

most vehicles made within the last 10 years will handle e-85 without any issues if they are tuned to run on it

there are several companies making an e-85 conversion which consists of a converter box that plugs in between the injectors and the harness that runs to them,, it then has a setting for e-85(basically it just increases your injector pulse width about 30% and has an adjustment so you can fine tune it for your vehicle)

as for being corrosive,, i ran it a whole summer in my s-10 when i first had a carbed 5.3 in it, all i had was steel lines and the factory plastic tank and pump and a holley carb and it ran fine and did not do any damage to the steel or rubber hoses

many people running boosted engines are going to e-85 for the octane/ less detonation properties and the fact that when you run e-85 at the proper air to fuel ratio it will produce more power than gasoline but you need to burn about 30% more to maintain the correct a/f ratio

i work at a chevy dealership and a few times now we have had vehicles come in where the owner decided to try e-85 in there non flex fuel vehicle, the engine will be running lean, buck and surge and the ses light will be on with a few lean codes in it, drain them and fill with regular gasoline and they are fine
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:51 PM   #34
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the e-85 nozzle at the gas station is the same size as regular fuel so you can put it in any vehicle by mistake

most vehicles made within the last 10 years will handle e-85 without any issues if they are tuned to run on it

there are several companies making an e-85 conversion which consists of a converter box that plugs in between the injectors and the harness that runs to them,, it then has a setting for e-85(basically it just increases your injector pulse width about 30% and has an adjustment so you can fine tune it for your vehicle)

as for being corrosive,, i ran it a whole summer in my s-10 when i first had a carbed 5.3 in it, all i had was steel lines and the factory plastic tank and pump and a holley carb and it ran fine and did not do any damage to the steel or rubber hoses

many people running boosted engines are going to e-85 for the octane/ less detonation properties and the fact that when you run e-85 at the proper air to fuel ratio it will produce more power than gasoline but you need to burn about 30% more to maintain the correct a/f ratio

i work at a chevy dealership and a few times now we have had vehicles come in where the owner decided to try e-85 in there non flex fuel vehicle, the engine will be running lean, buck and surge and the ses light will be on with a few lean codes in it, drain them and fill with regular gasoline and they are fine
I wasn't meaning one or two tanksfull, I was talking about someone using it over a period of time, from what I have read and heard from experts, one tank will not hurt, but several tanks could not only ruin the Catalytic convertor, but cause detonation and a leaning out of the engine causing a engine failure. A carburated engine would not be effected as much as a fuel injected one computer controlled one, you could change the Jets to make up for the difference.
My advice is if your care is not designed to use it , Stay away from it, Why take the chance to save a few bucks.
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