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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 12-08-2009, 02:07 AM   #1
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Exclamation Vararam CAI Testing on Dyno at England Green Racing (Pix, Vids, RESULTS!!!)

First, let me send out a HUGE "thank you" to Patrick from Vararam for bringing me over to Houston today to do some "testing" of production units and other prototype units. I honestly had NO idea just how much thought went into the construction of the intake, the type of filter to be used, positioning of the MAF sensor, etc, etc, etc (lots that go into this!). Along with that, a HUGE "thank you" needs to go out to the guys over at England Green Racing (Jason and Stephen) for hosting our testing time on their BAD @SS dyno in a GREAT shop! THIS is the type of dyno I have been yearning for since the install of the Stainless Works exhaust system. Land/Sea correcting dyno that puts out SOLID numbers......not like the first crazy "STOCK" 406rwhp #'s I got when having my exhaust put on with a Mustang dyno.

Now...onto the good stuff to try to make this short and sweet....I'm freakin' tired and was falling asleep on the couch....so. Questions will be answered tomorrow when I'm awake and have a bit more time...

Left the house at 8am and got to England Green (Houston, TX) at 11am where I met Stephen and Jason (owners of England Green), a few more guys from the shop (forgive me for not remembering names...ugh...I'm sorry and suck at this) and Patrick from Vararam. We immediately pulled the car in and strapped it down to the dyno.












The first two runs were done with my current exhaust set up. This includes a complete Tom Henry exhaust system built by Stainless Works and includes long tube headers w/ 2" primaries, high flow cats, x-pipe, 3" pipes, chambered mufflers.

THERE IS NO TUNE ON THIS CAR.

1st Pull
393.3tq
388.1hp
11.67AFR




2nd Pull
384.5tq
385.3hp
11.71AFR

Then, we added a production Vararam unit and ran it on the dyno. The air filter size was 2.75 inches and did not perform as well as the 3". Therefore, Patrick, on the spot, decided that stock auto V8's got 2 3/4" filters and manuals are going to need 3" filters. Really, so much that goes into this...and decisions upon final production pieces are still being made.

We did several test and tune runs with different units changing the positioning of the MAF, different size air filters, etc. I'll skip those videos and move on the end results...

Lots of stuff going on....

But...



6th Pull:
421.7tq
413.5hp
12.3AFR



Proof....do the math...for those that don't believe...

28.4tq increase
25.4hp increase
ON THIS RUN...the #'s we gave out earlier and on the graph were on the final run.

YOWZA....

7th Run:
415.5tq
409.6hp
12.16AFR






The car NEVER left the dyno...it was raining and was 60 degrees...nasty driving weather...(although the plan was to drive it, we decided not to). We left it on the dyno the ENTIRE day out there. So, NO learning curve for any of this. Just straight up old intake from GM (which really isn't that bad at all) to the Vararam unit that put out these numbers.

A few intakes have been shipped out. Auto stock car units are done. They should be getting 2.75 inch filters...and they LOOK GREAT! I got to hold the production unit and it really is impressive. You guys are going to love it.

V8 manual cars get the 3" filter...as was decided today by the numbers put out by my car. Also, depending on your application (mods wise...exhaust, etc), you might need the 3" for the auto car. See...there is just so much that goes into this. You can't just take a 2.75 inch filter and toss it on a car with long tubes when a 3" filter gives you 10 more hp...or even more (as shown today). All this testing is being done to give YOU the BEST possible CAI for YOUR application...not a general run of the mill, "everybody gets the same unit to save ourselves on production costs". Nope... From what I understood, there will be two versions for the V8 Camaros now. I'm going to head back up there in a week or two as we are going to toss it BACK on the dyno again with the production unit and 3" filter (using a test unit right now that was bonded by Patrick, not by Green Filters). This unit should put out (after some repositioning with the MAF) another 7tq and 5hp. Yep...that's right.

But, we'll get those numbers then.

I hope I was able to answer some questions this far...I'm trying to remember everything that was asked this far and get it all done. No tune on the car...OH! The TRUE "ram air effect" will give the car about a half to 3 quarters of a point more in AFR...bringing it from a good 12.3 to close to a 13.0 bringing even MORE hp that what is being shown on the dyno. Correct...the dyno numbers show GOOD numbers....but not TRUE numbers of the ram air intake. Yeah...it's just getting better...

Once the final production figures are found for the V8's (and it sounds like he's got it wrapped up now), he's going to start on V6 units.

The website IS complete. They are proof reading the information and have a few grammatical errors they are fixing as well as editing a video or two. There are PAGES of information on this car...videos, dynos, numbers, AFR numbers, ETC ETC ETC!!! There was NO stone left unturned. Yes...I saw the site info with my own two eyes...lol. It's there. It'll be up shortly, I'm sure. But, "ok" simply does not cut it for Patrick (as I found out ..). He really does expect perfection.

Ok...I can't remember anything else right now... Again, I hope this info answers some questions. Have fun and enjoy the #'s.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:28 AM   #2
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Nice. Looking forward to info on the V6 version.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:33 AM   #3
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freakin' sweeeeeet! I'm hoping that maryland speed or another speed shop will wind up with a few in stock this month
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:36 AM   #4
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Time to watch this and respond later.

EDIT: Sweet. Looks like I will be grabbing one of these at some point as well.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:34 AM   #5
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The thing that sticks out here is that you already have a full exhaust with LT's which improves the numbers somewhat. I'm not bashing, just pointing out that the typical owner will not gain that much from just the intake and no other mods. Those are very nice numbers though.

Why use 2 different filters? Why not just put 3in in all of them and call it good? Surely there is no situation where the 2.75in is better than the 3, is there? You know someone is not going to like their end result and complain because they got the "small" filter. Looks like you had a great time but why are they still testing filter size and maf location? With having several test units out and all the testing that we heard about, it seems like they would have already had this stuff lined out by now.
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:28 AM   #6
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How much HP can the 3" version support? Can it support and not restrict a supercharged car pushing say 15lbs boost?
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:10 AM   #7
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The Vararam for the Camaro does not support a supercharger at this time. I asked Patrick about it on the tele.
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:31 AM   #8
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nice!
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:42 AM   #9
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Maybe it's just the dyno, but with your mods, you should have been putting down 400 minimum...
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:44 AM   #10
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I agree, a stock car will not see nearly the gain. Your car was begging for more air with the headers and 3" exhaust. You probably dont have cats either. If you are seeing 25hp a stock car should see 15hp.
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:46 AM   #11
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You are welcome by our shop any time Doug.

mlee - we'll see you soon!

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Old 12-08-2009, 08:48 AM   #12
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Here are the pics I took... Robert is the young mans name who is strapping down the car...
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:59 AM   #13
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:02 AM   #14
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Nice Job Guys.

Do you have the Fuel Trim information?

Do you have the Timing and Knock Logs?

Why did you only make 2 baseline runs but 7 with the Varraram?

Just an Observation.

Some of that power is coming from fooling the MAF, The MAF is reporting less air than is actually flowing in to the engine due to MAF Clocking and how Air flows past the sensor hugging one side.

When the MAF reports Less Air then Actual 2 Things Happen, The A/F is leaned and the Timing is advanced.

So in essense the car is being tuned in that respect Via MAF Fooling.

What do we do to find power in a tune? We Clean up the A/F and advance timing.

LS3s with Headers and a Tune put down 410 RWHP with Stock air box and 420 with Most Aftermarket Air intake systems so your right in line with everyone else.

So How much of the power came form actual air flow and how much of the power came from MAF error?

I would say a 50-50 split

Were did the 6 HP and 4 lb torque go on the last pull, I think I know, Computer learning out Knock from too much timing due to maf error.

Ted.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:12 AM   #15
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They made 7 runs do to trying different Vararams with different configs.

The thing to remember the below does not work.

Vararam gives you W
Headers gives you X
Exhaust gives you Y

Well W+X+Y DOES NOT = Z. You can not stack everyting and say you just picked up 70 HP or so. So a plain stock car especially the A6's may see a real nice increase.

Also we need to look at the gains across the entire bandwidth just not peak. And that should be looked at with all air intakes. Also we had no moving car airflow effect with the car on the dyno. This type of CAI may benefit well from air being pushed into it.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_p View Post
I agree, a stock car will not see nearly the gain. Your car was begging for more air with the headers and 3" exhaust. You probably dont have cats either. If you are seeing 25hp a stock car should see 15hp.
being that he is running the stock tune, I would bet he does in fact have cats. I'd say more than +15hp on a stock car...I'd also bet the gains at lower RPM are higher...like say 3500-4000rpm.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott@Bjorn3D View Post
They made 7 runs do to trying different Vararams with different configs.

The thing to remember the below does not work.

Vararam gives you W
Headers gives you X
Exhaust gives you Y

Well W+X+Y DOES NOT = Z. You can not stack everyting and say you just picked up 70 HP or so. So a plain stock car especially the A6's may see a real nice increase.
Ted's numbers are from what he's seen on the dyno from multiple Camaro's.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:49 AM   #18
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Yeah but we can't directly compare numbers from one dyno to numbers from another car on another dyno on another day...too many variables. The baseline for TAG's car might be over 400rwhp on Ted's dyno, but the it will still have the same gain regardless.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:52 AM   #19
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:58 AM   #20
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GREAT INFO' TAG'!!! Very interesting... I'm looking forward to some more testing at the track Are you going to tune the car eventually? I'm sure that'll unleash even more power
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:06 AM   #21
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Can we get cliff notes on the outputs????

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Old 12-08-2009, 10:38 AM   #22
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Thanks Tag. Looks like you had fun. No scissors in the tire at this shop?
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:51 AM   #23
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thanks for the info tag, it looks as if the vararam will be just as good as the new era intake.... the moving air flow is really where these otr intakes shine.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTM View Post
freakin' sweeeeeet! I'm hoping that maryland speed or another speed shop will wind up with a few in stock this month
All pre-orders get theirs first. All of Vararams 250 worldwide dealers are going to have to wait until the pre-orders are filled first. But, you will eventually see them there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
The thing that sticks out here is that you already have a full exhaust with LT's which improves the numbers somewhat.

Correct.

I'm not bashing, just pointing out that the typical owner will not gain that much from just the intake and no other mods.

Incorrect. They air intake alone minus headers will put out even more hp. You can uncork either side and get great numbers. It's when you uncork the other side that the numbers won't be as impressive. You'll see when he updates the site. A WHOLE BUNCH of data logged information is displayed for ALL to see (Jannetyracing) so you can actually see what's going on.


Those are very nice numbers though.

Thank you!


Why use 2 different filters? Why not just put 3in in all of them and call it good?

Because you have to restrict the flow. Too much air flow and it runs rich...getting low AFR numbers. You don't want that. You have to restrict air in some cases to get better #'s. In other cases, you have to allow more air to get better numbers. It's two different engines. Look at it that way. Sure, they both put out about the same, but both engines really are different. The auto has extra crap that I could NEVER explain or really even understand. Just trust me when I say we tried the 2.75 on mine and then the 3. The 2.75 was simply not working to put out good numbers. The 3" on the auto puts out too much air and causes problem. You'll start to get rough idle, might get a light, etc. So, it's important when ordering to know what you want with other mods you might have.

Surely there is no situation where the 2.75in is better than the 3, is there? You know someone is not going to like their end result and complain because they got the "small" filter.

I don't think anyone will be complaining! There will be PLENTY of data on their site....and on an added note, Patrick is giving a money back guarantee that simply can't be beat. He's guaranteeing numbers, times, and that it WILL work as expected or money back AND shipping paid for. I'm telling you now, if you read the site, it says you get 40hp and you EXPECT 80hp, you WILL be let down...and you know what? Your intake will have performed as Vararam said it would. There won't be any let downs. I wasn't let down when I saw 28tq on the 6th run! And when I said last week that you really could feel the increase in power in the butt dyno, I wasn't lying...

Looks like you had a great time but why are they still testing filter size and maf location? With having several test units out and all the testing that we heard about, it seems like they would have already had this stuff lined out by now.
Sure. It seems that way. But, he only has two cars THERE that he's been testing on. He keeps getting different cars with different mods to test on...and ALL REACT DIFFERENTLY. Fine tuning on which would be the best is what he's been doing. AND, it appears that more than one would be needed. In other words, everyone who gets one of these WILL be thankful that they waited...because they got the most from the unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nl12 View Post
How much HP can the 3" version support? Can it support and not restrict a supercharged car pushing say 15lbs boost?
Not sure on that one. A forced induction unit could be in the plans. He would probably have the 3" filter in there. But, it really wouldn't matter since you'd be tuning the car WITH the unit anyway. I'd would imagine it would work just fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott@Bjorn3D View Post
The Vararam for the Camaro does not support a supercharger at this time. I asked Patrick about it on the tele.
not yet. But, very possible in the future. I think V6 version would be next for the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chappy48 View Post
Maybe it's just the dyno, but with your mods, you should have been putting down 400 minimum...
That's what i was hoping for too. 6.7hp short of that 400 isn't bad at all, though. And, on a bit better day without all the rain and better conditions, it just might have hit the 400hp mark. I was really hoping for 400, but....oh well. 393rwhp is nothing to scoff at for a stock car w/ headers. Still a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_p View Post
I agree, a stock car will not see nearly the gain. Your car was begging for more air with the headers and 3" exhaust. You probably dont have cats either. If you are seeing 25hp a stock car should see 15hp.
Nope...again. You will see. Don't ya'll think that there could ever be a point to where TOO MUCH AIR could be a problem for AFR? This whole testing situation was put together for a car with intake and FULL HEADER exhaust WITHOUT a tune. In other words, what can "WE GET AWAY WITH" without a tune??? THIS is what we are looking for. You get intake and exhaust and the best numbers possible BEFORE having to go to your local tuner to get it all figured out. YES, a tuner could probably lean it out a point to a point and a half more getting 15 to 20hp more. Yes. However, if you WANT a WARRANTY......then this is why the testing is being done. We saw the AFR level drop to 11.03 with too much air flow. That is NOT good for the car. Talk about SUPER rich! Leaning it out to just like Jason said (CajunDude from England Green) by tuning it up to 13.5 AFR would be optimal. We got my AFR up to 12.4 on the 6th run...and when driving, will bring it up to about 13.0 AFR....right where it needs to be. Sure, you could tune. It's not going to be a dramatic gain, but it would surely help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajundude@EnglandGreen View Post
You are welcome by our shop any time Doug.

mlee - we'll see you soon!

Jason
Many, MANY thanks. You guys are really top notch out there. Great to work with, friendly, knowledgeable, and have a great set up. If anyone in the Houston area (or even further out) needs any help, give these guys a shout. GREAT guys. I'm pretty sure I'll be seeing you again in a week or two when I stop back by with Patrick again. Only this time, I"M BUYING LUNCH!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
Nice Job Guys.

Do you have the Fuel Trim information?

I don't have any graphs (excel data) just yet. Waiting on email info. You can see AFR ratios I posted up so far...

Do you have the Timing and Knock Logs?

I don't have the info yet.

Why did you only make 2 baseline runs but 7 with the Varraram?

Two baseline runs just to make sure the dyno was running properly. First was cold run...second a few minutes after...sure heat soak dropped the numbers by a couple on each.

I don't know where you got the number "7" from with the Vararam. We did 5 pulls with the Vararam after doing 2 pulls stock (with my headers, of course). The reason we did that many pulls was because we added the production Vararam with 2.75 filter first. On the next run, we moved the MAF from one area to the next. Same thing for the 3rd Vararam run...moved the MAF. Then, we took off the 2.75 filter and put on the 3" filter and housing for the 6th and 7th run. The numbers jumped up. Testing different units on the dyno for my header application.

Just an Observation.

No problem. Thought I went into that in my first post. Guess not. Sleepy maybe?

Some of that power is coming from fooling the MAF, The MAF is reporting less air than is actually flowing in to the engine due to MAF Clocking and how Air flows past the sensor hugging one side.

When the MAF reports Less Air then Actual 2 Things Happen, The A/F is leaned and the Timing is advanced.

So in essense the car is being tuned in that respect Via MAF Fooling.

Quite possibly.....which makes me wonder why no one else tried doing this....

What do we do to find power in a tune? We Clean up the A/F and advance timing.

LS3s with Headers and a Tune put down 410 RWHP with Stock air box and 420 with Most Aftermarket Air intake systems so your right in line with everyone else.

There's lots of people just like me who want to mod, but keep the warranty. THIS is the type of testing that needs to be done to forgo that tuning to keep the warranty. I still recommend a tune if you are on the fence or don't care. But, if something goes, you gotta pay to play...and I really care about keeping everything working happy so no future problems arise.

So How much of the power came form actual air flow and how much of the power came from MAF error?

We lost power when trying to move the MAF. At least, on mine. So, I don't know if you'd call it an error or not when, for production units, it appears to be in the right position.

I would say a 50-50 split

Were did the 6 HP and 4 lb torque go on the last pull, I think I know, Computer learning out Knock from too much timing due to maf error.

Ted.
Not sure...I don't know what happened. I was thinking the same thing last night when I was watching the videos. I'm at a loss.... I need to talk to him again and see what he did. Because the 12.4 AFR is better than the 12.1 AFR and the hp and tq levels are also better before. We'll be headed back up there and see what we can do to fix that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by radz282003 View Post
GREAT INFO' TAG'!!! Very interesting... I'm looking forward to some more testing at the track Are you going to tune the car eventually? I'm sure that'll unleash even more power
Eventually, when the warranty expires, we will tune it. But, I'll probably add a cam then as well. We'll see. After warranty, hell yeah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMav View Post
Can we get cliff notes on the outputs????

Mav
Sure.

Vararam is putting out more torque and hp than ALL the other units.

Plain and simple. The stock auto 8 shows gains of 45tq and 40hp rear wheels in the midrange 3,500rpm area. Overall, it's showing about 25rwhp gain peak. But, hp #'s aren't as important as the torque numbers Patrick is looking for. Again, HP makes you go FAST. Torque gets you there.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:46 AM   #25
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Great Post Tag....Thanks
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