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Old 12-10-2009, 07:30 PM   #1
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Who doesn't want an LSA Z/28?

Okay first off lets keep this friendly cause i know a lot of people get touchy on subjects such as these.

So we've all heard the rumors of the Z/28 engines, ironicly we're looking at "the big three" we've got the LS7, the LS9, and seemingly everyone's favorite, the LSA. Me personally dont favor the LSA and with the overwhelming fanbase for it i was wondering who else might agree with me. For discussion purposes i'll list my reasons as to why i do not favor the LSA...

1.) It is a supercharged LS3, which nearly every aftermarket company and private owner seeking performance has already done thousands upon thousands of times.

2.) If all aftermarket companies (now including the new Yenko i guess) are going to be offering supercharged LS3 Camaros, why would i want a production model like that? It most likely be less powerful, cost more (Nickey Stage 2 is going for $40,000) and innevitably the aftermarket Nickeys and Yenkos will be rarer, more collectible, and more valuable anyways.

3.) Why use a supercharged 550hp engine when there is an N/A 550hp engine available? Despite rumors of it being terminated (yet to be seen as its still strongly supported in the Z06)

4.) Why not just add the LS9 anyways? Top of the line Corvette engines have been available in the past through COPO and other various sources.

5.) An LSA powered Camaro would basically be a re-badged CTS-V, and isnt that exactly what everyone wants GM to get away from these days?

6.) The LSA is the only engine out of the three without forged internals = weaker equipment

7.) Why use a 550hp supercharged LS3 when you have a 663hp supercharged LS3 available?



I may think of more, these are just the issues i could think of on the spot...
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:04 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Okay first off lets keep this friendly cause i know a lot of people get touchy on subjects such as these.

So we've all heard the rumors of the Z/28 engines, ironicly we're looking at "the big three" we've got the LS7, the LS9, and seemingly everyone's favorite, the LSA. Me personally dont favor the LSA and with the overwhelming fanbase for it i was wondering who else might agree with me. For discussion purposes i'll list my reasons as to why i do not favor the LSA...

1.) It is a supercharged LS3, which nearly every aftermarket company and private owner seeking performance has already done thousands upon thousands of times.

2.) If all aftermarket companies (now including the new Yenko i guess) are going to be offering supercharged LS3 Camaros, why would i want a production model like that? It most likely be less powerful, cost more (Nickey Stage 2 is going for $40,000) and innevitably the aftermarket Nickeys and Yenkos will be rarer, more collectible, and more valuable anyways.
Warranty

3.) Why use a supercharged 550hp engine when there is an N/A 550hp engine available? Despite rumors of it being terminated (yet to be seen as its still strongly supported in the Z06)
Warranty and driving manners.

4.) Why not just add the LS9 anyways? Top of the line Corvette engines have been available in the past through COPO and other various sources.
Sounds good to me!

5.) An LSA powered Camaro would basically be a re-badged CTS-V, and isnt that exactly what everyone wants GM to get away from these days?
I don't see how you could say that. While the platform is roughly the same the exterior and interior look nothing like the Cadillac.

6.) The LSA is the only engine out of the three without forged internals = weaker equipment
LS3 doesn't have forged internals does it?

7.) Why use a 550hp supercharged LS3 when you have a 663hp supercharged LS3 available?
Once again, sounds good to me.



I may think of more, these are just the issues i could think of on the spot...
I answered in red.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:05 PM   #3
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so you dont want the LSA because its a supercharged ls3, but the ls9 would be cool being just an even more supercharged ls3?
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Like I said before, there is a dealership that is 4 miles away from my house that has 3 2SS's just sitting on their lot. And this is a very small dealership it's not a high volume dealership in a populated area., Come early summer, when 2011's are coming out, the camaro will be offered for 0%. I guarantee it
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apparently you didn't understand my post correctly. If there are 4 (now 6) camaros sitting at a low volume dealership, just imagine how many are sitting at the high volume dealerships
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:31 PM   #4
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Z got the axe... motor is a non issue now...:(
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:44 PM   #5
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I want an LSA...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega View Post
1.) It is a supercharged LS3, which nearly every aftermarket company and private owner seeking performance has already done thousands upon thousands of times.
It's FAR more than just simply a supercharged LS3.

2.) If all aftermarket companies (now including the new Yenko i guess) are going to be offering supercharged LS3 Camaros, why would i want a production model like that? It most likely be less powerful, cost more (Nickey Stage 2 is going for $40,000) and innevitably the aftermarket Nickeys and Yenkos will be rarer, more collectible, and more valuable anyways.
It will have a warranty, and have been DESIGNED to be supercharged from the factory. I love the LS3, but it won't last, all things equal, as long as an equivalent LSA. On cost...there's going to be more to the Z than simply a bigger engine. And on collectibility...me? I want my car as complete as possible from the factory.

3.) Why use a supercharged 550hp engine when there is an N/A 550hp engine available? Despite rumors of it being terminated (yet to be seen as its still strongly supported in the Z06)
Is there? The 550hp in the LS7 Camaro concept is not emissions-legal. Several GM people have confirmed that the LS7 is pretty much as good as your going to get out of an LS engine and still be regulations-compliant.

4.) Why not just add the LS9 anyways? Top of the line Corvette engines have been available in the past through COPO and other various sources.
There is nothing equivilant to COPO today, and the LS9 would simply price the Z28 out of competition.

5.) An LSA powered Camaro would basically be a re-badged CTS-V, and isnt that exactly what everyone wants GM to get away from these days?
Not...quite. I think that's a stretch. Cobalt and the G5 is a rebadge...the GMC SUVs and Chevy cousins were rebadges. This would not be. And the Traverse/Enclave/Acadia are examples of similar vehicles being successfully differentiated...A shared engine is not grounds for "rebadge" accusations. At least in my opinion.

6.) The LSA is the only engine out of the three without forged internals = weaker equipment
LS7 does not have forged internals. And "weak" in terms of what? The engine has been extensively tested and proven to apparently be more durable than an LS9...if it's aftermarket you're worried about, I wouldn't. Hennessy has had great success with this engine, and if you're going to get crazy-serious, a forged rotating assembly should be in order anyways.

7.) Why use a 550hp supercharged LS3 when you have a 663hp supercharged LS3 available?
Cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost, cost...
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Z got the axe... motor is a non issue now...:(
Says who?
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Okay first off lets keep this friendly cause i know a lot of people get touchy on subjects such as these.

So we've all heard the rumors of the Z/28 engines, ironicly we're looking at "the big three" we've got the LS7, the LS9, and seemingly everyone's favorite, the LSA. Me personally dont favor the LSA and with the overwhelming fanbase for it i was wondering who else might agree with me. For discussion purposes i'll list my reasons as to why i do not favor the LSA...

1.) It is a supercharged LS3, which nearly every aftermarket company and private owner seeking performance has already done thousands upon thousands of times.
I think it is a bold statment to say that everyone that wanted a SC Camaro has one already. Plus it will be a good platform to work off of. That way you already have the hard part done (the supercharger installed) so all you have to do is simple bolt ons to beat the GT500

2.) If all aftermarket companies (now including the new Yenko i guess) are going to be offering supercharged LS3 Camaros, why would i want a production model like that? It most likely be less powerful, cost more (Nickey Stage 2 is going for $40,000) and innevitably the aftermarket Nickeys and Yenkos will be rarer, more collectible, and more valuable anyways.
Warranty is the easiest answer to this comment

3.) Why use a supercharged 550hp engine when there is an N/A 550hp engine available? Despite rumors of it being terminated (yet to be seen as its still strongly supported in the Z06)
MPG will probably be better with the SC because the displacement will be down

4.) Why not just add the LS9 anyways? Top of the line Corvette engines have been available in the past through COPO and other various sources.
GM is going to want to save that motor for their halo car

5.) An LSA powered Camaro would basically be a re-badged CTS-V, and isnt that exactly what everyone wants GM to get away from these days?
Yeah totally different not sure what happened when you wrote this

6.) The LSA is the only engine out of the three without forged internals = weaker equipment
Isn't the LS9 the only one with forged internals?

7.) Why use a 550hp supercharged LS3 when you have a 663hp supercharged LS3 available?
Are you talking about the LS9 if so see comment above


I may think of more, these are just the issues i could think of on the spot...
Keep thinking
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:04 PM   #7
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Z got the axe... motor is a non issue now...:(
says who the rags I use to whip my rear?

there was never an offical release saying it was on for production. for one. now for two the same rags say it's gotten the axe? think it might be to sell more rags? I think so. . .lmao.

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so you dont want the LSA because its a supercharged ls3, but the ls9 would be cool being just an even more supercharged ls3?
hardly just a supercharged ls3. may share the same 6.2L's and maybe the same block but the heads, cam, valvtrain, and internals are all different. so hardly a simple ls3 with more boost.



now to the OP. you left out one engine option which is quite possible. by the time the Z28 would debut the c7 vette will have been out. and everyone is speculating that the c7 will have the Gen V motor. so who's to say it won't have that engine.

my feeling is I would accept the LSA but want an NA engine. I want that DI engine. I see great potential in that engine even though it hasn't been announced.
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:08 PM   #8
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lol, remember the comment about "touchy issue?"

Personally i would consider the Z/28 a rebadged CTS-V because it would be 2-door, same engine, roughly same deminsions, very likely the same transmission, i mean yeah the platform may be different but how different is it really? looking at the two you'd probly never know the difference

Now as for "weaker internals" i did mean "weaker" not weak itself, ive heard about the testing and yeah its impressive, but some still preffer those better parts...and yeah the LS7 doesnt have all the bells and whistles the LS9 has but its got a lot more in the way of that kinda stuff than the LSA

Also ive heard everyone talking about the cost of the LS9, well how can we really set a price? All people are going by is the ZR1's price which, aside from the fact that there's so many carbon fiber and extra performance components, it was still a legendary car as soon as it hit the showroom floor, not to mention the cream of the crop of GM's crowned king of the crop, of course it'd be extremely expensive...does that make the engine horribly expensive? Not necessarily.

The COPO comment was just proving putting the #1 Corvette engine in a productin Camaro has been more than considered before, its been carried out (also wasnt the 1LE the same way? Im not sure on that though)

Really the big thing that has come to light for me is the warrenty issue
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:15 PM   #9
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To Boxmonkeyracing:

I agree with you, id be perfectly fine with the LSA, its an awsome engine in itself i have nothing against it being in the race, im just saying maybe everyone's quick to speculate? Still, id be fine with it too

Oh and the "LS9 would be fine over the LSA" thing, at that i meant a kind of "why settle for a smaller supercharger with less power when the LS9 is roughly the same with a greater charger and the most stock power ever seen in a production GM vehicle?" just to clarify i mean


I dont mean to disrespect the LSA in any way
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:19 PM   #10
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lol, remember the comment about "touchy issue?"

Personally i would consider the Z/28 a rebadged CTS-V because it would be 2-door, same engine, roughly same deminsions, very likely the same transmission, i mean yeah the platform may be different but how different is it really? looking at the two you'd probly never know the difference
CTS-V is a 4 door. The rebadging that was common in the past was taking the exact same car and changing a couple of body panels and badges, and sometimes not even the body panels were changed and it was only different badges.
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:34 PM   #11
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Hm, i was looking at this...i guess its just a coupe concept?

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/sites...john/cts-2.jpg
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:21 PM   #12
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Hm, i was looking at this...i guess its just a coupe concept?

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/sites...john/cts-2.jpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spi...-v_coupe-spied

The CTS-V coupe is moving forward. I guess if you wanted to make any comparsoion to a V it would be to that one

Another thing to consider is that the LSA for the CTS-V is an assembly line made motor this will help to keep the cost down instead of using a much more expensive motor like the LS9 or LS7 which are both hand built
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:34 AM   #13
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The Z/28 would not be a re-badged CTS-V. It will have the same, if not more performance, but would not have near the luxury or interior quality of the Cadillac. It would also lower cost for both vehicles if the same engine is used in the CTS-V/Z28. Think of the Z/28 as an affordable, significantly less luxurious, performance variant of the CTS-V if you have to think of it being a rebadge.
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
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lol, remember the comment about "touchy issue?"

Personally i would consider the Z/28 a rebadged CTS-V because it would be 2-door, same engine, roughly same deminsions, very likely the same transmission, i mean yeah the platform may be different but how different is it really? looking at the two you'd probly never know the difference

Noise, vibration, harshness, and ride quality will all be improved with the luxury sigma platform. Going by engine and transmission as "rebadging" is 100% off the mark. Rebadge = same platform, same drive train, and swappable interiors/exteriors (often with shared components). Its derived from the ability to take the badges off one car, put them on another, and few would know the difference. This isn't really a debatable point.


Also ive heard everyone talking about the cost of the LS9, well how can we really set a price? All people are going by is the ZR1's price which, aside from the fact that there's so many carbon fiber and extra performance components, it was still a legendary car as soon as it hit the showroom floor, not to mention the cream of the crop of GM's crowned king of the crop, of course it'd be extremely expensive...does that make the engine horribly expensive? Not necessarily.

No, its based largely on the cost of the engines themselves. The LS3 costs about $6000, the LS7 and LSA are both around $13,000. The LS9 is crowding $20,000.
see bold
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:26 AM   #15
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Yeah a prime example of a rebadged car is the Holden Monaro which is also know as a the Pontiac GTO and the Vauxhall Monaro VXR






Hopefully this will clear up the rebadged CTS-V issue
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:51 AM   #16
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It depends on what it will be built to compete against. It makes more sense to have the Z/28 with the LS9 engine if you are putting it against the GT500. Fully built engine vs Fully built engine with a slight edge to the larger displacement engine

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Old 12-11-2009, 11:14 AM   #17
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lol, remember the comment about "touchy issue?"

Personally i would consider the Z/28 a rebadged CTS-V because it would be 2-door, same engine, roughly same deminsions, very likely the same transmission, i mean yeah the platform may be different but how different is it really? looking at the two you'd probly never know the difference
so... are these rebadged?









they both share the same drivetrain and are about the same size






Quote:
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Now as for "weaker internals" i did mean "weaker" not weak itself, ive heard about the testing and yeah its impressive, but some still preffer those better parts...and yeah the LS7 doesnt have all the bells and whistles the LS9 has but its got a lot more in the way of that kinda stuff than the LSA


some people do still prefer "better" parts. but there arent enough of them to buy the car to make it feasible. the camaro isnt just made to be powerful, its made to last and keep the cost low.

Do I want an LS7 Z28? no. if anything for a n/a motor, I'd love for GM to do LSX packages. 440LSX, 454LSX, 436LSX, hell, they could even make the damn thing carbureted.

the LS7, LS9 and LSA all have a lot of innovative features, however, it is not easy to mount and route a dry sump oiling system in the camaro. ask hennessey.



Also ive heard everyone talking about the cost of the LS9, well how can we really set a price? All people are going by is the ZR1's price which, aside from the fact that there's so many carbon fiber and extra performance components, it was still a legendary car as soon as it hit the showroom floor, not to mention the cream of the crop of GM's crowned king of the crop, of course it'd be extremely expensive...does that make the engine horribly expensive? Not necessarily.

you can buy a crate LS9 for around 20-25k. that being said, take 20k. add it to the MSRP of the SS and you are already looking at past 50k for the car, plus you will need an upgraded drivetrain to deal with the power, so lets add some more in, granted, you can cut some of that cost down by subtracting the price of the LS3 and SS level transmissions. but then factor in the redesign of the engine bay to facilitate the dry sump oiling system and now youve got to change the entire build of the car to fit that engine.

Do I want it? yes. will it happen from the factory? no.


The COPO comment was just proving putting the #1 Corvette engine in a productin Camaro has been more than considered before, its been carried out (also wasnt the 1LE the same way? Im not sure on that though)

Really the big thing that has come to light for me is the warrenty issue

warranty is the big kicker as well. and I can tell you that the LSA is on hell of a motor. gm tests the living balls out of these motors. try going WOT for a week or two straight.... ~7300+rpm with no problems.



LSA will most likely be going into the car, unless they can get the Gen V motors out the door now.

my personal choice over the LSA?

440LSX.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:15 AM   #18
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It depends on what it will be built to compete against. It makes more sense to have the Z/28 with the LS9 engine if you are putting it against the GT500. Fully built engine vs Fully built engine with a slight edge to the larger displacement engine

Crowley

but why do you need a fully built engine to face off against a mustang?


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Old 12-11-2009, 11:53 AM   #19
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The LSA would compete with the GT500 just fine. The only downfall for the Camaro is that it is a porker compared to the GT500.
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:52 PM   #20
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The LSA would compete with the GT500 just fine. The only downfall for the Camaro is that it is a porker compared to the GT500.
wanna take bets on that?

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With a curb weight of 3,924 pounds, the 5.4-liter engine received an EPA rating of 14-mpg city, and 22-mpg highway – not bad.
link

even if the camaro is heavier do to the supercharge (which it will be) why can't they use weight savings to help curb that. it will be within 150 lbs I suspect.

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Old 12-11-2009, 03:01 PM   #21
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wanna take bets on that?
I do, I do

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Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
even if the camaro is heavier do to the supercharge (which it will be) why can't they use weight savings to help curb that. it will be within 150 lbs I suspect.
My guess is they will. I would guess a lighter exhaust, maybe some fiberglass and lighter wider wheels. They could take notes from the Z06 guys. When the Z28 does come out (I doubt Ed Welburn would open his mouth unless it's coming) it will be a hair under 4K lbs.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:23 PM   #22
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I don't think they are going to do much in terms of weight savings. That would mean that they would have to have special parts made specifically for the Z28 and this will just make cost go up even more. With some of the ideas that are being thrown out here (weight reductions & LS9) the Z28 may be comparable to the GT500 performance wise, but it will be far more expensive.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:29 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by wavrun2000 View Post
I don't think they are going to do much in terms of weight savings. That would mean that they would have to have special parts made specifically for the Z28 and this will just make cost go up even more. With some of the ideas that are being thrown out here (weight reductions & LS9) the Z28 may be comparable to the GT500 performance wise, but it will be far more expensive.
the aftermarket is already making some good light weight parts and better suspension componets. not too many custom parts need to be made. just ordered.

lol. wow sorry I still don't see how you think it's going to be so much more then the GT500. maybe after markups that some dealers like to charge. but the same crap was said about the camaro before it came out with the LS3. it's going to be too expensive if they put that motor in there. . .where did they price it? again I still think it will be a hair more then the GT500. and that's because of the performance premium. if I've learned something about chevy with the 4th gens and now the 5th gens. they don't like to come in second when it comes to performance against the stang.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:34 PM   #24
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I just want to see a supercharged option for the Camaro next year, even if it is on the SS.
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:26 PM   #25
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I'd like to see the Leno Camaro become the new Z28, would be pretty cool (but highly unlikely).

I think the LSA would be a good motor for the Z28 but I think stuff like a Carbon Fiber Hood, lighter wheels, lighter exhaust, maybe even seats who knows but that would do a ton for the weight and would help it compete with the GT500 (direct competition) trust me GM's smarter than to make the Z28 slower than that.
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