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Old 12-15-2009, 05:56 PM   #1
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The all mightY Z?

I have been reading a few of these threads about the Z28 from time to time and I get the feeling that some people think that the Z28 should be supercharged, better engine, and all around better car. If we look back, the Z's have not necessarily been equipped with better engines, only a lighter body and better suspension. I'm just curious where the idea of the LS9 being in the Z28 is coming from. I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of let down people out there. But truly, that is what the Z in chevy vehicles stands for....better suspension, or sport suspension. Nothing to do with the motor. Now, let the responses fly.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:10 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by EsteSS View Post
I have been reading a few of these threads about the Z28 from time to time and I get the feeling that some people think that the Z28 should be supercharged, better engine, and all around better car. If we look back, the Z's have not necessarily been equipped with better engines, only a lighter body and better suspension. I'm just curious where the idea of the LS9 being in the Z28 is coming from. I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of let down people out there. But truly, that is what the Z in chevy vehicles stands for....better suspension, or sport suspension. Nothing to do with the motor. Now, let the responses fly.
I think it comes from the fact there isn't a GT500 fighter. and just like the SS monikar has changed over time why can't the Z28 mean bad assery. for most the SS is a watered down trademark. the Z28 isn't.

as for the LS9/lsa supercharged talk. That started with the whole talk of a mule running around with a supercharged engine. way back before the camaro ever started production. but we didn't know what the current line up was going to be SS or Z28 being the base v-8. since the SS is the base V-8 in the current line up it makes sense the Z28 would be an upper level now.

as for the comments about better suspension and wot not. the 1969 z28 had a high revving motor (which in some peoples mind is better). it was puttind down well north of 300 hp. and tuned for the trans am series of racing. so that could also make it "better." The could also mean it's a better over all car then the SS because of the suspension and motor combo. which would still lend creedence to the Z28 being a bad ass supercharged v-8.

either way the main reason I see the Z28 being a supercharged lsa is the GT500 fighter senerio. makes sense from a marketing standpoint. at least to me.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:53 PM   #3
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I have been reading a few of these threads about the Z28 from time to time and I get the feeling that some people think that the Z28 should be supercharged, better engine, and all around better car. If we look back, the Z's have not necessarily been equipped with better engines, only a lighter body and better suspension. I'm just curious where the idea of the LS9 being in the Z28 is coming from. I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of let down people out there. But truly, that is what the Z in chevy vehicles stands for....better suspension, or sport suspension. Nothing to do with the motor. Now, let the responses fly.

Hmmmm, perhaps you might want to go back and re-read the history of the Z/28, particularly the first gens. Lighter body? Never happened in '67-'69, the Z/28 used the same body as every other Camaro. Better engines? That is a matter of preference. In '69 I could have traded my '67 RS Camaro for a SS350 or SS396, I felt that the high revving 302 Z/28 was the better engine choice and so I bought a Z/28. The larger cubic inch engines of the SS350 and SS396 did not necessarily mean they were better engines, just bigger than the Z/28 302. Better suspension? Here I would agree, the '67-'69 Z/28 had a far better suspension than the SS, the Z/28 was after all a production version of Chevy's SCCA Trans Am race car. I actually would prefer a new Z/28 NOT get the LSA or LS7/9, but if Chevy releases a new Z/28, they will be making that decision, not me.
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:05 PM   #4
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I argued this same point for a long time and got flamed for it repeatedly. Here is a thread where I collected my thoughts.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:07 AM   #5
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I'd prefer the LS7 but the logic behind having the supercharged engine is to ensure that the Z28 is the best performer in every regard (besides fuel economy)
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:19 AM   #6
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I have been reading a few of these threads about the Z28 from time to time and I get the feeling that some people think that the Z28 should be supercharged, better engine, and all around better car. If we look back, the Z's have not necessarily been equipped with better engines, only a lighter body and better suspension. I'm just curious where the idea of the LS9 being in the Z28 is coming from. I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of let down people out there. But truly, that is what the Z in chevy vehicles stands for....better suspension, or sport suspension. Nothing to do with the motor. Now, let the responses fly.
Here is what is wrong with the Z/28 should be only a track oriented vehicle.

The guidelines you are going to by to build the Z/28 are long gone. The only reason why the Z/28 had a smaller engine (FYI, a couple sources dyno'd the 302 and actually got around 400 HP out of it. It was the more powerful engine, just not the biggest) is because of Trans Am racing series rules. So here is the question: Why abide by rules that no one else abides by? The Z/28 no longer has to be the road track vehicle, it can finally become the full-fledged powerhouse it deserves to be.

Plus, like it or not, the Z/28 will compete with the GT500. In order to beat the car in the 1/4 you'll need an engine that is capable of achieving 530 HP, while maintaing affordability. The best engine that fits these two requirements, as of right now, would be the LSA.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:33 AM   #7
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Poor horse.....
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:52 AM   #8
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Poor horse.....
Ain't that the truth!!
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:56 AM   #9
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I just want to see a factory supercharged Camaro, make a SS Supercharged for 2011.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:38 PM   #10
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Why not offer a Camaro with a TT V6, LS/7, LSA, LS/9 and badge them whatever you want. The marketing possibilities would drive the public in just to see them. Maybe that would even get the car a movie role.?
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:43 PM   #11
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Why not offer a Camaro with a TT V6, LS/7, LSA, LS/9 and badge them whatever you want. The marketing possibilities would drive the public in just to see them. Maybe that would even get the car a movie role.?
Well you'd have some guy with his TT V6 badge it a ZL1, and the other with an LS9 badge it a SS lol.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:51 PM   #12
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Why not offer a Camaro with a TT V6, LS/7, LSA, LS/9 and badge them whatever you want. The marketing possibilities would drive the public in just to see them. Maybe that would even get the car a movie role.?
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:34 PM   #13
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The Z has always has a high HP engine up until the last the 6 years of Camaro production. From the DZ302 to the LT-1 350 and the TPI 350 of the IROC-Z. Z has always meant performance to the Camaro.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:55 PM   #14
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Why not offer a Camaro with a TT V6, LS/7, LSA, LS/9 and badge them whatever you want. The marketing possibilities would drive the public in just to see them. Maybe that would even get the car a movie role.?
I'll tell you why GM cannot do any of those options yet.

GM, while presenting the Jay Leno TTV6 at SEMA, has not been known to be testing such a setup on the track. Without proper testing, any TTV6 would have catastrophic failures. GM must test this product if it is ever to be released. Besides, old school muscle car enthusiasts decry that this engine has 2 less cylinders than a traditional muscle car. I find this excuse closed-minded since people have no complaints about a GT-R V6 beating the Camaro or the Viper having a V10 rather than a V8. I'd like to see a TTV6 as the Z28, but I'm apparently in the minority.

The LS7 is on its way out. It is very expensive to build this engine, in part because it is built by hand. It only goes into the Z06. Adding the Camaro would spread the costs of this engine, but those benefits would have diminishing returns with the need for additional labor to build LS7s by hand. It is a great engine, but it is slated to go away. Why would GM go through the expensive process of research and development, tuning, and hiring labor for a product that will barely be in Camaros for a couple of years?

The LS9 is a high-performance engine. It fits the mold of a ZL1 better than a Z28. It is possible that GM has been researching the use of this engine, but there are no confirmations as yet.

The LSA is probably the best bet for a Z28 of the rumored engines. It doesn't make old school muscle car guys whine like a TTV6 does, and it has enough power to help it fit above the Super Sport on the hierarchy. I would prefer that GM simply offer a different tune or smaller displacement than the SS per tradition, a suspension package, and Z28 embroidery, saving the glory for a supercar Camaro rather than the Z28, but this option seems to appeal to the masses.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:56 PM   #15
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I'll tell you why GM cannot do any of those options yet.

GM, while presenting the Jay Leno TTV6 at SEMA, has not been known to be testing such a setup on the track. Without proper testing, any TTV6 would have catastrophic failures. GM must test this product if it is ever to be released. Besides, old school muscle car enthusiasts decry that this engine has 2 less cylinders than a traditional muscle car. I find this excuse closed-minded since people have no complaints about a GT-R V6 beating the Camaro or the Viper having a V10 rather than a V8. I'd like to see a TTV6 as the Z28, but I'm apparently in the minority.

The LS7 is on its way out. It is very expensive to build this engine, in part because it is built by hand. It only goes into the Z06. Adding the Camaro would spread the costs of this engine, but those benefits would have diminishing returns with the need for additional labor to build LS7s by hand. It is a great engine, but it is slated to go away. Why would GM go through the expensive process of research and development, tuning, and hiring labor for a product that will barely be in Camaros for a couple of years?

The LS9 is a high-performance engine. It fits the mold of a ZL1 better than a Z28. It is possible that GM has been researching the use of this engine, but there are no confirmations as yet.

The LSA is probably the best bet for a Z28 of the rumored engines. It doesn't make old school muscle car guys whine like a TTV6 does, and it has enough power to help it fit above the Super Sport on the hierarchy. I would prefer that GM simply offer a different tune or smaller displacement than the SS per tradition, a suspension package, and Z28 embroidery, saving the glory for a supercar Camaro rather than the Z28, but this option seems to appeal to the masses.
Yup. your in the minority, but this is how I see it. I would like to see a TTV6 camaro, but not as a Z/28 BECAUSE it would offer zero benifits other than 50lbs of wieght off the nose and slightly better fuel economy. Equal or less power than a SS with a price point higher than a SS. That just does not make any sense IMHO. In todays market the average consumer WILL compare the Z/28 to the GT500, and will pick the GT-500 over a TTV6 z/28 every single time if it is like Jay leno's sema car. In todays market the Z/28 should be an all out road course warrior, with emphasis on less weight and more power. Requireing a small displacement engine would be a mistake IF the car can't compete in todays market. In todays market I think the Z28 should be to the camaro what the Z06 is to the vette, The track version of the car. JMHO
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:35 PM   #16
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Looks like the glue factories will be working over-time.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:23 PM   #17
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Yup. your in the minority, but this is how I see it. I would like to see a TTV6 camaro, but not as a Z/28 BECAUSE it would offer zero benifits other than 50lbs of wieght off the nose and slightly better fuel economy. Equal or less power than a SS with a price point higher than a SS. That just does not make any sense IMHO. In todays market the average consumer WILL compare the Z/28 to the GT500, and will pick the GT-500 over a TTV6 z/28 every single time if it is like Jay leno's sema car. In todays market the Z/28 should be an all out road course warrior, with emphasis on less weight and more power. Requireing a small displacement engine would be a mistake IF the car can't compete in todays market. In todays market I think the Z28 should be to the camaro what the Z06 is to the vette, The track version of the car. JMHO
To respond to your comment about the 50 lbs of weight. I highly doubt 50 lbs is what you'll see. the turbos along with the tubing would probably come in at the SS's weight. JMO.

as for what I bolded. AMEN! exactly what I want out of the Z28. just feel a gen V motor would benefit it better then the LSA or LS9.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:32 PM   #18
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Yup. your in the minority, but this is how I see it. I would like to see a TTV6 camaro, but not as a Z/28 BECAUSE it would offer zero benifits other than 50lbs of wieght off the nose and slightly better fuel economy. Equal or less power than a SS with a price point higher than a SS. That just does not make any sense IMHO. In todays market the average consumer WILL compare the Z/28 to the GT500, and will pick the GT-500 over a TTV6 z/28 every single time if it is like Jay leno's sema car. In todays market the Z/28 should be an all out road course warrior, with emphasis on less weight and more power. Requireing a small displacement engine would be a mistake IF the car can't compete in todays market. In todays market I think the Z28 should be to the camaro what the Z06 is to the vette, The track version of the car. JMHO
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To respond to your comment about the 50 lbs of weight. I highly doubt 50 lbs is what you'll see. the turbos along with the tubing would probably come in at the SS's weight. JMO.

as for what I bolded. AMEN! exactly what I want out of the Z28. just feel a gen V motor would benefit it better then the LSA or LS9.
I agree that any Z28 must be able to compete in this market. Hopefully, GM comes up with something catchy for a TTV6 that will be classic in the years to come. Someday, it might even be possible for performance cars to break free of that stigma that they are inefficient and consume too much fuel. I'm okay with being in the minority. I'd actually rather get my way when I'm not in the minority because I want thee Z28 to succeed and be a sucess in the eyes of the anxious enthusiast masses. Someday, more people will agree that a TTV6 is as viable as any V8, but they've got to get beaten by a few first.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:35 PM   #19
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:15 AM   #20
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I agree that any Z28 must be able to compete in this market. Hopefully, GM comes up with something catchy for a TTV6 that will be classic in the years to come. Someday, it might even be possible for performance cars to break free of that stigma that they are inefficient and consume too much fuel. I'm okay with being in the minority. I'd actually rather get my way when I'm not in the minority because I want thee Z28 to succeed and be a sucess in the eyes of the anxious enthusiast masses. Someday, more people will agree that a TTV6 is as viable as any V8, but they've got to get beaten by a few first.
I honestly believe that a TTV6 could go into a car like the executive edition we have heard so little about, but instead call it the Berlinetta. Yes, enthusiasts hate that nameplate ... but enthusiasts mainly buy the SS and Z28's anyway so what does our opinion matter on this? We're not the market. Anyway, start it out as a 2LT, include a few dress-up items, some additional techy stuff like HUD or possibly nav ... there's probably a market for such a car
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:41 AM   #21
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when is the z28 supposed to come out?
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:49 AM   #22
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when is the z28 supposed to come out?
After the convertible, which is over a year away
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:33 PM   #23
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I agree that any Z28 must be able to compete in this market. Hopefully, GM comes up with something catchy for a TTV6 that will be classic in the years to come. Someday, it might even be possible for performance cars to break free of that stigma that they are inefficient and consume too much fuel. I'm okay with being in the minority. I'd actually rather get my way when I'm not in the minority because I want thee Z28 to succeed and be a sucess in the eyes of the anxious enthusiast masses. Someday, more people will agree that a TTV6 is as viable as any V8, but they've got to get beaten by a few first.
everyone seems to be talking about the weight savings the TTv6 has but I still don't see it. I see added weight to a V-6 that makes it only just as competetive as our base V-8's. I do see the potential. but I still remain on my point that there is no replacement for displacement when it come to power and power adders. you take the same setup for a v-8 and you will see a greater return on power. and as I've always believed the best way to start a performance car is with the best base. . .a v-8 still remains the best base.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:16 PM   #24
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everyone seems to be talking about the weight savings the TTv6 has but I still don't see it. I see added weight to a V-6 that makes it only just as competetive as our base V-8's. I do see the potential. but I still remain on my point that there is no replacement for displacement when it come to power and power adders. you take the same setup for a v-8 and you will see a greater return on power. and as I've always believed the best way to start a performance car is with the best base. . .a v-8 still remains the best base.
You are completely right to point out that there is no replacement for displacement, but I want to make a separate point. GM has limited interest in producing a car with potential. GM wants to build a car that, from the factory, will sell very well. They advertise the stock performance numbers. They don't care if we can add a ProCharger to a 6.2L V8 to get numbers. That's part of why the Cobalt SS turbo is a success.

In other words, you are right to say that you can get better performance out of a V8 with two turbos, but GM doesn't care. GM does not sell twin turbo kits for V8s. It is possible that GMPP will someday do so, but it is not coming in the near future. GM is going to build a car that comes out of the factory with good numbers. If the goal is 400 ponies, GM can do that in a couple of ways: V8 or V6 with forced induction.

The V8 will sell to the people who will only tolerate a V8 in muscle cars. Despite some people's concerns, these people will never go away. The muscle car, as we remember it in the 1970s, will not die.

The TTV6 will sell to people who have an interest in this power plant. People will always argue about which is better. I like torque and the feeling I get from getting thrown into my seat, so I would be better suited for a V8 because that feeling, at least now, will be more profound in a V8. Some people like the high horsepower number and don't care about the power source. Maybe they like the sound of turbos. For whatever reason people like it, it should be available to them.

I have this vision of a future GM ordering system. Someday, people will be able to visit a GM dealer who will not be an idiot—probably a sheer fantasy—and order a custom car. They will be able to decide whether they want a V8 or a V6. They will have easily selectable options. One of those options will be that most engines will go in most cars. Some people like Impalas. Others like Cobalts. I like Camaros, so I would be able to visit a dealer, order a Camaro, and have a list of GM-produced engines. If my friend wants a Camaro with a TTV6, it will be available by request. If my other friend wants a turbo diesel from a truck, GM will make that available. Today, cars have very specific order options. We have 2 engines—LS3 and L99 are fundamentally the same—today that limit the orders of GM customers, making some people contact crate engine retailers for alternative GM products and forcing those people to try to sell their original engine at a substantial discount. It is very expensive to do this because it functionally adds expense to the engine swap. There is unnecessary expense. Here's the formula: the cost of the car (MSRP) plus the cost of the crate engine (MSRP) plus the labor for its install plus the labor for the other engine's removal minus a discounted price for the original engine (below MSRP) plus shipping for the engine to go where its new owner will use it; for GM, this is also an unnecessary expense because GM could have sold this discounted engine at MSRP through a retailer rather than having it available in the cash market.

Basically, someone will buy it. EcoBoost is a great product, and GM needs to create the same product. It should be a single TTV6 used for multiple products and brands to keep costs down. It should put up quarter miles as fast as a V8, and it should have sellable fuel efficiency with a warranty to boot. There are a lot of V6 guys here that are interested in a V6 with forced induction, and Lingenfelter has answered the call. The aftermarket is great, but some people are too hesitant to order this sort of product without a warranty. The people who go that route will go there regardless of whether GM makes such a product; thus, GM can only benefit from this.

Allow me to recap, again, because my post went from long to publishable. If GM releases a TTV6 and advertises it as a more fuel efficient way to get a fast car from the factory, people who don't care as much about displacement as you and I do. We want displacement to make our factory cars faster. Some people don't care, so a TTV6 might be a great option for them. If the product is spread across a variety of style, then the cost will be low and it will be able to compete directly with EcoBoost.
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:50 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Allow me to recap, again, because my post went from long to publishable. If GM releases a TTV6 and advertises it as a more fuel efficient way to get a fast car from the factory, people who don't care as much about displacement as you and I do. We want displacement to make our factory cars faster. Some people don't care, so a TTV6 might be a great option for them. If the product is spread across a variety of style, then the cost will be low and it will be able to compete directly with EcoBoost.
I agree 100% about the TTv6. I really feel it should be an option. but as for my feelings on it being a Z28 they are already known. I know there are people out there that are performance enthusiasts that absolutely hate V-8's. and to them I honestly don't comprehend why they would turn down such a good base of an engine.

I also know there are people out there concerned about fuel economy and want the best they can get from a fun fast car. a TTv6 would be better then a v8.

but for the ones that love to modd and race. . .just confuses me. and I get we like what we like. but they should offer the TTv6 to those people.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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