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Old 07-31-2008, 03:15 AM   #1
Mindz
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Talking 2 + 2 doesn't = 4? An original proof created by myself.

I decided to post one of my old arguments on another forum and figured I might as well post it here. So let me know what you guys think!

Quote:
Why 2 plus 2 doesn't equal four:

Ever come across a smart ass? One that has an answer for everything? That's me. I love arguing with people irl, not necessarily complaining or fighting, but I manipulate words and can mostly make up valid points (not necessarily facts, but points none-the-less) to prove my point. I literally confuse some people to the point where they don't trust their opinions anymore and just agree with me.

Well I was on AIM with a friend of mine who was psychology student at a Carolina University. After disagreeing with him on some subject (can't remember at the moment), he basically said I could prove anything wrong and get people to believe it. I replied with "Let's try it out. Gimme the first 'matter-of-fact' statement that comes to your mind. What's something that everyone knows to be true?"

"2 + 2 = 4."

I thought about it for about 15 seconds and came up with an arguement. After about 30 minutes of debate, he had his arithmetics professor join the aim conversation and try to disprove my claim. The professor was stumped. Everything I had stated was true, and there was no fault to it. Now let me make this clear. I'm sure there's a way to disprove my theory, I just haven't found it yet. Anyways, the proof is as follows.


2 + 2 = 4? I think not...


Answer in short: The formula has no units, therefore it is false. Numbers have no properties, they are measurements. Therefore numbers cannot be added together.


Answer in long:
When given the statement 2+2=4, we break it down and look at each part.

2 (number)
+ (operator)
2 (number)
= (operator)
4 (number)

now let's get rid of the operators and you have numbers. What is a number? A number is a quantity of units.

For example, 2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples.

In this formula, the number of apples are being added, not the numbers.

Numbers have no properties, they are measurements. Therefore numbers cannot be added together. You can add the apples, but you will never be able to add one number to another.


I'm sure I'm forgetting parts, but that's the basis of it. Please let me know if you have ways to prove it false or if you have something you want me to prove false, post up a new thread and I'll answer it as philisophically as I can.


P.S. My major was Visual and Game Programming, I'm not a philosopher but I "have a B.S. in BS"
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Last edited by Mindz; 07-31-2008 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:29 AM   #2
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This is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.
If a number is a unit or a quantity of units or a representation of a unit or quantity of units, you can add them together. Unless you are from West Virginia, you can add numbers.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:38 AM   #3
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I didn't say you couldn't add them. The point is that you can't add a number unless it's attached to a unit. At that point you're adding the units, not the numbers themselves.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:39 AM   #4
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I your original post you said that a number was a unit... so what is the difference?
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:41 AM   #5
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That or is "of" typo. It's now fixed.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:51 AM   #6
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I still stand by my statement that a number IS a unit of measure.
The apple just defines the unit of measure as a particular type of unit.
The type of unit is irrelivant to it's ability to be added together.

If somebody askes me how many apples and oranges I want. My answer can be 4 and the amount of each type doesn't matter to me. As long as I get 4, I don't care what the ratio is. Just give me 4 of anything.
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:00 AM   #7
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your unit then turns to mixed fruit, not the number itself.
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:20 AM   #8
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Call it whatever you want, but I don't have to give a name to my unit. The unit of measure is 4. If I say I want 4, it is understood without me telling you what type of unit it is.
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:30 AM   #9
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According to Merrium Webster a number is: a unit belonging to an abstract mathematical system and subject to specified laws of succession, addition, and multiplication

So by that definition the number IS the unit.

There is no apple, only the unit. You just choose to visualize the apple to represent the unit which is 4.
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlingnotes View Post
Call it whatever you want, but I don't have to give a name to my unit. The unit of measure is 4. If I say I want 4, it is understood without me telling you what type of unit it is.
Or implied units that the number is representing.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlingnotes View Post
According to Merrium Webster a number is: a unit belonging to an abstract mathematical system and subject to specified laws of succession, addition, and multiplication

So by that definition the number IS the unit.

There is no apple, only the unit. You just choose to visualize the apple to represent the unit which is 4.
And dictionary.com says this

Quote:
num·ber Audio Help /ˈnʌmbər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[nuhm-ber] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a numeral or group of numerals.
2. the sum, total, count, or aggregate of a collection of units, or the like: A number of people were hurt in the accident. The number of homeless children in the city has risen alarmingly.
3. a word or symbol, or a combination of words or symbols, used in counting or in noting a total.
4. the particular numeral assigned to an object so as to designate its place in a series: house number; license number.
5. one of a series of things distinguished by or marked with numerals.
6. a certain collection, company, or quantity not precisely reckoned, but usually considerable or large: I've gone there a number of times.
7. the full count of a collection or company.
8. a collection or company.
9. a quantity of individuals: Their number was more than 20,000.
So by that definition,a number ISN'T a unit. It can be symbolized a numeral, but it is not a unit itself.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:06 AM   #11
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Okay then, a numeral is a symbolic representation of a unit. If I understand you correctly, this is your argument. That it is a symbolic representation and not the unit itself. Even in that case the symbol as a representation is equal to the actual unit.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:35 AM   #12
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I see what he is saying, but mathamatically 2+2 will always equal 4
Just because you do not give it an attachment to some sort of unit does not mean you cannot add them together. by It'self each number really has no meaning. but you can still add two numbers together, but you just end up with another number.

Now answer this.

If you are driving at the speed of light and turn your headlights on, What happens?
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:37 AM   #13
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You wouldn't ever see them. The only way a person could see the headlights was if you hit them and they'd catch a very fast glimpse before the oxygen and blood drained from their brain.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlingnotes View Post
Okay then, a numeral is a symbolic representation of a unit. If I understand you correctly, this is your argument. That it is a symbolic representation and not the unit itself. Even in that case the symbol as a representation is equal to the actual unit.
The numeral is a way of communicating the number, it is not the number itself.

Quote:
I see what he is saying, but mathamatically 2+2 will always equal 4
Just because you do not give it an attachment to some sort of unit does not mean you cannot add them together. by It'self each number really has no meaning. but you can still add two numbers together, but you just end up with another number.
This is correct to a degree. You either get 2 "numbers" or you get one number "4" which is a number representing 4 units.

If no unit is stated, it is implied. That's why people can still write out numbers without units, but to correctly write the formula you include the words in parantheses:

2 (units) + 2 (units) = 4 (units)
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:47 AM   #15
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too much college + too much time = Stupid ideas

Now that adds up!!!
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:06 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindz View Post
You wouldn't ever see them. The only way a person could see the headlights was if you hit them and they'd catch a very fast glimpse before the oxygen and blood drained from their brain.
According to a Engineer with a masters in Physics That I work with, the light would travel out at twice the speed of light... Because he says the speed of light is realative to the point it originates from. He even had a formula to prove it... I still don't believe it.. I said you would see the light behind you. or your headlights would explode because the light couldn't get out
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:17 AM   #17
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Ahhh. Like if you're pushing your arm forward as you shoot a bullet. The bullet goes faster from the inertia acceleration. something along those lines, right?
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:28 AM   #18
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Actually Mass, length and time are all dependent on relative motion so as you approach the speed of light your body will shrink and time will slow down. So if you moved your hand in front of you, it would actually be behind you and you would thus shoot your self in the ass, but your butt would not hurt because the bullet would be too small to do any significant damage. Also, you can only approach the speed of light, you could never actually hit it because then time would stop and you would cease to exist and you would divide by zero which is neither a number nor a unit, and we all know what happens when you divide by zero... lol
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindz View Post
Ahhh. Like if you're pushing your arm forward as you shoot a bullet. The bullet goes faster from the inertia acceleration. something along those lines, right?
^^Somebody email mythbusters.

2+2=4 whether your talking about 2 objects or the theoretical quantity of 2. End of story.

As for the car traveling the speed of light the professor is correct, but it is all relative.

Example A: You are in the car traveling at (X) speed, turn on the headlights, and from your perspective the light is traveling exactly the speed of light no matter what speed you are going.

Example B: You are traveling toward earth at (X) speed and turn on the headlights. From earth the light would appear to be traveling at the speed of light + your speed (blue-shift). The opposite if you were traveling away from earth. From earth we would observe the speed of light minus your speed red-shift. This is how we can tell if stars and planets are traveling toward or away from us and at what speed.

I'm a little bored at work right now.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:41 AM   #20
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That's actually a really thoughtful argument. I like it.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:46 AM   #21
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Everyone knows 2+2=5 (for extremely large values of 2) Duh!
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindz View Post
Ahhh. Like if you're pushing your arm forward as you shoot a bullet. The bullet goes faster from the inertia acceleration. something along those lines, right?
In theory I would assume so, but since nobody has ever traveled at the speed of light, theory is all we have.
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:19 AM   #23
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Dang you people have too much time on your hands... Get a Hobby... LOL
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:30 AM   #24
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In theory I would assume so, but since nobody has ever traveled at the speed of light, theory is all we have.
(Making myself sound more like a nerd)

No I have never gone the speed of light, but the "theory" is indeed fact.

Think of an ambulance approaching you at high speed with the siren on. From inside the ambulance the sound is normal. When it is coming at you you hear a high pitch, then as it passes you you hear a lower pitch. The sound waves are compressed infront of the ambulance then lengthened behind it.

If i fire a 9mm foreward, out the window of my truck, while traveling 55mph the bullet will travel its speed plus 55mph. (Thats my Los Angeles example)
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clm7214 View Post
(Making myself sound more like a nerd)

True, but it is indeed fact.

Think of an ambulance approaching you at high speed with the siren on. From inside the ambulance the sound is normal. When it is coming at you you hear a high pitch, then as it passes you you hear a lower pitch. The sound waves are compressed infront of the ambulance then lengthened behind it.

If i fire a 9mm foreward, out the window of my truck, while traveling 55mph the bullet will travel its speed plus 55mph. (Thats my Los Angeles example)
Not fact, fact is something you can prove by actual testing, you cannot test the Speed of light/headlight theory because no one can travel at that speed. so it remains a theory... Same as evolution, since we cannot see anything evolve or recreate it, it remains a theory.
Yes the other statements are fact because you can recreate it.

Main Entry: the·o·ry
Pronunciation: \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural the·o·ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theōria, from theōrein
Date: 1592
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2: abstract thought : speculation
3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory<in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
6 a: a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b: an unproved assumption : conjecture c: a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>

Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: \ˈfakt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century
1: a thing done: as aobsolete : feat b: crime <accessory after the fact> carchaic : action
2archaic : performance, doing
3: the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
4 a: something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b: an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
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