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Old 08-04-2008, 10:14 AM   #1
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L99 heads vs LS3/L92

the L92 and LS3 share the same head/port design, can we assume that the L99 heads will also be the same as the LS3/L92's

looking to have a set of heads ready to go for the new camaro

thanks
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:23 AM   #2
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Elie or one of the other disciples may know, but no one has said anything to indicate they are different, but no one may have asked the question yet....
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:49 PM   #3
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Someone posted in another thread that the rev limiter on the LS3 is 6600 RPM while the L99 is 6000 RPM.

That either has to do with keeping the RPM's down on the automatic transmission(RPM's KILL an auto trans) or that the springs on the L99 heads can't handle the extended RPM band.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:29 PM   #4
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:10 PM   #5
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Nope, it's the AFM, specifically the lifters. The cam is milder, sonits not making power that high anyway
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:19 PM   #6
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Nope, it's the AFM, specifically the lifters. The cam is milder, sonits not making power that high anyway
Yep your right... I found where the maximum shift sped is 6500RPM. The car stops making power well before that though.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:14 PM   #7
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Yep your right... I found where the maximum shift sped is 6500RPM. The car stops making power well before that though.
The LS3? It is still making just under 400 hp at 6500 rpm, I wouldn't call that not making power. It may be past peak, but it is still more power than would be available at 4500 rpm in the next gear. The L99 is limited to 6200 rpm.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:21 PM   #8
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The LS3? It is still making just under 400 hp at 6500 rpm, I wouldn't call that not making power. It may be past peak, but it is still more power than would be available at 4500 rpm in the next gear. The L99 is limited to 6200 rpm.
We are talking about the L99.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:45 PM   #9
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whats a the l99 safe stock spring redline
???????????????????????????????????????
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Old 08-23-2009, 09:14 PM   #10
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Do me a favor, some one with an LS3 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads, then some one with an L99 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads. Someone suggested to me that the head casting # was different. We know the LS3 heads contain lighter valves...probably different valve springs also, as the LS3 cam's max lift is over .550 vs the L99 being less than .500, the LS3 CR is more, but only 0.3 more 10.4:1 vs 10.7:1.

But the new question, is...is the head design the same or different. It seems like L99's for the same mods are down more on power than just the what the drive train loss would account for. Saying that even with aftermarket mods (mods being equal...such as cam or whatever), its not right.

I emailed a couple shops that do heads, and asked if they had inspected any bare L99 castings vs LS3 but I got no replies.

Maybe its nothing...or maybe its something...it just "appears" that the L99 is down more power than what drivetrain loss will account for.
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:46 PM   #11
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Do me a favor, some one with an LS3 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads, then some one with an L99 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads. Someone suggested to me that the head casting # was different. We know the LS3 heads contain lighter valves...probably different valve springs also, as the LS3 cam's max lift is over .550 vs the L99 being less than .500, the LS3 CR is more, but only 0.3 more 10.4:1 vs 10.7:1.

But the new question, is...is the head design the same or different. It seems like L99's for the same mods are down more on power than just the what the drive train loss would account for. Saying that even with aftermarket mods (mods being equal...such as cam or whatever), its not right.

I emailed a couple shops that do heads, and asked if they had inspected any bare L99 castings vs LS3 but I got no replies.

Maybe its nothing...or maybe its something...it just "appears" that the L99 is down more power than what drivetrain loss will account for.
I'll be back on friday and will post mine if no one else does. I'll I know is they use the same headers, I think.
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:05 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by pharmd View Post
Do me a favor, some one with an LS3 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads, then some one with an L99 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads. Someone suggested to me that the head casting # was different. We know the LS3 heads contain lighter valves...probably different valve springs also, as the LS3 cam's max lift is over .550 vs the L99 being less than .500, the LS3 CR is more, but only 0.3 more 10.4:1 vs 10.7:1.

But the new question, is...is the head design the same or different. It seems like L99's for the same mods are down more on power than just the what the drive train loss would account for. Saying that even with aftermarket mods (mods being equal...such as cam or whatever), its not right.

I emailed a couple shops that do heads, and asked if they had inspected any bare L99 castings vs LS3 but I got no replies.

Maybe its nothing...or maybe its something...it just "appears" that the L99 is down more power than what drivetrain loss will account for.


I think I know who you talked to


yeah it appears the heads are different, I believe mine (and his) are 853s?

both L99s
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:05 AM   #13
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Do me a favor, some one with an LS3 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads, then some one with an L99 go out and see what the casting # is on your heads. Someone suggested to me that the head casting # was different. We know the LS3 heads contain lighter valves...probably different valve springs also, as the LS3 cam's max lift is over .550 vs the L99 being less than .500, the LS3 CR is more, but only 0.3 more 10.4:1 vs 10.7:1.

But the new question, is...is the head design the same or different. It seems like L99's for the same mods are down more on power than just the what the drive train loss would account for. Saying that even with aftermarket mods (mods being equal...such as cam or whatever), its not right.

I emailed a couple shops that do heads, and asked if they had inspected any bare L99 castings vs LS3 but I got no replies.

Maybe its nothing...or maybe its something...it just "appears" that the L99 is down more power than what drivetrain loss will account for.
According to GMHTP, the heads are identical. But as you said, it is possible there are some differences in the springs or valves. I believe the CR difference is due to the valve pockets in the pistons.
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:11 AM   #14
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According to GMHTP, the heads are identical. But as you said, it is possible there are some differences in the springs or valves. I believe the CR difference is due to the valve pockets in the pistons.
Truth...
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:26 PM   #15
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they are the same
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:34 PM   #16
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just looked at some LS3s today, they have a different casting number in a different location VS the L99
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:58 PM   #17
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just looked at some LS3s today, they have a different casting number in a different location VS the L99

So now the question begs, are the actual casts different or not? Do they flow the same or not? Surely there is a head shop that is developing a CNC program for these things that has looked at both heads and can provide some clarification...
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:16 PM   #18
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So now the question begs, are the actual casts different or not? Do they flow the same or not? Surely there is a head shop that is developing a CNC program for these things that has looked at both heads and can provide some clarification...
we hope lol
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Old 08-26-2009, 07:54 AM   #19
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So now the question begs, are the actual casts different or not? Do they flow the same or not? Surely there is a head shop that is developing a CNC program for these things that has looked at both heads and can provide some clarification...

the heads themselves are L92 heads. aka L92/LS3/L99/L76 heads.

the L92 castings themselves are the truck version of the LS7 castings.

the major differences are in the valvetrain, lifters, springs, valves, etc.

the L99 has softer springs as well as modified lifters to enable AFM. there are some extra tidbits about the LS3 and L99 cam and valvetrain specs at the bottom of the first post of this thread. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34774


as for cnc porting

http://www.proheads.com/

http://www.sdparts.com/product/88958...ndSprings.aspx
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:42 AM   #20
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the heads themselves are L92 heads. aka L92/LS3/L99/L76 heads.

the L92 castings themselves are the truck version of the LS7 castings.

the major differences are in the valvetrain, lifters, springs, valves, etc.

the L99 has softer springs as well as modified lifters to enable AFM. there are some extra tidbits about the LS3 and L99 cam and valvetrain specs at the bottom of the first post of this thread. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34774


as for cnc porting

http://www.proheads.com/

http://www.sdparts.com/product/88958...ndSprings.aspx
I understand the differences and have read about them a number of times, but you can't believe everything you read

I want a shop who has had both heads off, and has flowed both heads and designed a CNC program with computer modeling to confirm there is no difference. I have spoken with a few different shops using L99's as test cars, and they are questioning this same thing. Mod for Mod the L99 is down on power (from what they have seen first hand) more than what can be accounted for in drivetrain loss, or 0.3 pts compression (aftermarket cam's take and difference if stock cam lift out of the equation).

Richard at WCCH is one of the front runners on LS3 heads, but there are a number of head shops that do this kind of work. Unfortnately, porting an LS3 head on a stock short block, is really not a very good return on investment. These heads usually run $1800 (maybe less on exchange basis), and most are showing 20rwhp or less. Richards heads showed 35rwhp on a LS3 vette with a BIG cam, tested at Redline Motorsports, but that seems to be somewhat of an outlier.
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:17 AM   #21
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I understand the differences and have read about them a number of times, but you can't believe everything you read

I want a shop who has had both heads off, and has flowed both heads and designed a CNC program with computer modeling to confirm there is no difference. I have spoken with a few different shops using L99's as test cars, and they are questioning this same thing. Mod for Mod the L99 is down on power (from what they have seen first hand) more than what can be accounted for in drivetrain loss, or 0.3 pts compression (aftermarket cam's take and difference if stock cam lift out of the equation).

Richard at WCCH is one of the front runners on LS3 heads, but there are a number of head shops that do this kind of work. Unfortnately, porting an LS3 head on a stock short block, is really not a very good return on investment. These heads usually run $1800 (maybe less on exchange basis), and most are showing 20rwhp or less. Richards heads showed 35rwhp on a LS3 vette with a BIG cam, tested at Redline Motorsports, but that seems to be somewhat of an outlier.

mod for mod the L99 should be down on power, it comes stock with 26hp less and add in the drivetrain losses. I can just about guarantee that there will be different casting #'s between the LS3 and L99 and probably even different casting #'s amongst LS3s and L99s respectively. add into the equation the different pistons and tuning required for the L99 over the LS3 and there's extra little bits of power loss here and there that add up.

one thing you mentioned is aftermarket cams. could you point me to where you saw comparisons on cam swaps between LS3 and L99 with the same spec cams? not doubting you, just want to investigate some more.
cus one of the big things that some are not aware of is that you cant just "turn off AFM and VVT and have an LS3". the springs in the L99 are less stiff than the LS3 which could lead to the valves not closing as fast as the LS3 and losing power. The camshaft itself is different as well as the L99 cam phaser which could add to some small rotational power loss. Also the AFM lifters are different as well which could lead to some bleed down at higher rpms.

all speculation at this point, but the thing to keep in mind is that with a cam swap to compare LS3 vs L99 with the same spec cam is that you would have to swap the entire valvetrain to ensure they were equal operating parameters.
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:32 AM   #22
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mod for mod the L99 should be down on power, it comes stock with 26hp less and add in the drivetrain losses. I can just about guarantee that there will be different casting #'s between the LS3 and L99 and probably even different casting #'s amongst LS3s and L99s respectively. add into the equation the different pistons and tuning required for the L99 over the LS3 and there's extra little bits of power loss here and there that add up.

one thing you mentioned is aftermarket cams. could you point me to where you saw comparisons on cam swaps between LS3 and L99 with the same spec cams? not doubting you, just want to investigate some more.
cus one of the big things that some are not aware of is that you cant just "turn off AFM and VVT and have an LS3". the springs in the L99 are less stiff than the LS3 which could lead to the valves not closing as fast as the LS3 and losing power. The camshaft itself is different as well as the L99 cam phaser which could add to some small rotational power loss. Also the AFM lifters are different as well which could lead to some bleed down at higher rpms.

all speculation at this point, but the thing to keep in mind is that with a cam swap to compare LS3 vs L99 with the same spec cam is that you would have to swap the entire valvetrain to ensure they were equal operating parameters.
Im referring to information that I have been provided by shops that I have spoken with . Anyone doing a cam swap would use aftermarket valve springs, removing that variable from the equation. The lighter weight valves in the LS3 could create a marginal difference, as could the 0.3 lower compression for the L99. But the power differences that have been seen are WAY more than what 15% vs 20% drivetrain loss can account for.

Hopefully, I will have some more data soon, I'm ordering some parts today that should help to shed a little light on this issue.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:40 PM   #23
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Im referring to information that I have been provided by shops that I have spoken with . Anyone doing a cam swap would use aftermarket valve springs, removing that variable from the equation. The lighter weight valves in the LS3 could create a marginal difference, as could the 0.3 lower compression for the L99. But the power differences that have been seen are WAY more than what 15% vs 20% drivetrain loss can account for.

Hopefully, I will have some more data soon, I'm ordering some parts today that should help to shed a little light on this issue.

true that they would/should use different springs, but if they upgrade the springs and utilize the stock AFM lifters, the lifters might not be up to snuff to open the valve all the way with the stiffer springs leading to decrease in performance. just brainstorming/speculating now.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:50 PM   #24
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the heads on my L99 engine i pulled out have a factory casting number of 0821, same as many of the LS3 heads

L92, L99, LS3, L76, all the same just different valves and spring combo's
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Old 08-26-2009, 02:50 PM   #25
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I spoke to a shop today that says they have flowed both casting #'s and they are equal. I haven't had time and don't plan to go searching deep for all the info, but they said the LS3 castings are a number, and the L99/L92's are the same #...and other that the LS3's having hollow stemmed valves (ie lighter weight) vs the L99/L92, the castings are the same and flow equally on a flowbench.

So now we are left to assume the A6 is just the most inefficient tranny of all time.

As a side note, they said 2 L99's with stock cam and TVS2300 @ 6psi, put down 450rwhp...he didn't say anything about headers/exhaust, CAI though...

Anyone else have modded or supercharged L99 numbers?
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