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Old 08-04-2008, 09:08 PM   #1
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Question for those experienced in boosting.

Planning on doing a twin turbo setup on the V6 camaro that I purchase (once I cut open the fender gills I'll need something to use that newfound airflow for, right?). However, I can't decide whether I want to do a 5 psi setup, or a 9 psi setup. I understand the obvious - 9 psi will produce more power than 5 psi. The not-so-obvious though, is what I'm not sure about.

A) I don't want to modify the engine internals in any way, except possibly some higher flow injectors. I would be worried about pre-ignition, but the VVT *should* take care of that if my understanding of the system is correct.

B) I don't want to hurt fuel economy very much - namely, as long as I can keep my foot out of it, I don't want it to have any worse fuel economy than the stock car did. I don't mind running 89 octane fuel, however (but, as I said above, the VVT *should* make this only necessary to gain more power)

My total goal is to reach a 13 second ET, without changing the stock internals or using a more aggressive tune (was going to have the car tuned after the turbos, but back to the stock A/F ratios). I *think* this should be possible with a 5 psi setup, but I'm fairly certain it will be at 9 psi. SO... mostly I want to know if 9 psi would be a bad idea...
- Xanthos
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:19 PM   #2
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yes and no. yes its a bad idea, for one important fact. you dont want to change the internals, yet you want to run FI on a motor with a c/r of over 11:1. ideally, 9.5:1 or so is the best you wanna run for boosted applications.


your goal is 13s... easy. take every thing that isnt bolted down to the car out, throw on a CAI and some slicks and take it to the track. she will make it.
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:36 PM   #3
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yes and no. yes its a bad idea, for one important fact. you dont want to change the internals, yet you want to run FI on a motor with a c/r of over 11:1. ideally, 9.5:1 or so is the best you wanna run for boosted applications.
Even you must take account for Direct Injection, spike.
It cools the charge for one, it also sprays right before the end of compression (so for the most part, all you're compressing is air).
AND, they don't even reccomend premium for this engine, so I think it's safe to assume that there's wiggle room for FI once somebody gets the computer tuning down.

DI is a whole new game.......


fwiw; I'm no expert -- but I've read quite a bit on this, if that means anything -- I think you could run 5psi without breaking anything; but I wouldn't go any higher...
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:37 PM   #4
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Even you must take account for Direct Injection, spike.
It cools the charge for one, it also sprays right before the end of compression (so for the most part, all you're compressing is air).
AND, they don't even reccomend premium for this engine, so I think it's safe to assume that there's wiggle room for FI once somebody gets the computer tuning down.

DI is a whole new game.......


fwiw; I'm no expert -- but I've read quite a bit on this, if that means anything -- I think you could run 5psi without breaking anything; but I wouldn't go any higher...

im not saying that its bad to do it because of the DI/cr. im saying that by putting boost on a motor that already has a static cr of 12:1 is going to be tricky to say the least. there's this little thing called......oh......wait.....ummmmmm....... oh yeah, blown head gaskets/seals/heads in general/valve stems/valves etc. thats why i made the comment about having the ideal cr at 9.5 or so. any higher than that, and you need to watch how much you turn up the boost or you're gonna blow something up...literally, up, up and away
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:44 PM   #5
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Well, that makes sense...but Turbo-deisels aren't regularly blowing up - and those have...what, 15:1+ CRs? Again, I'm no "expert"; just putting it out there.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:06 PM   #6
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I'm not looking for extreme amounts of boost - I'm not saying "This is the amount of boost I want and heres what I want to do to get there," I'm saying "I want as much boost as I can safely create without modifying the internals." If thats 5 psi, so be it. If its 9 psi, all the better. Now, I can't get away with tearing out everything that isn't bolted on, or putting on slicks, because this will be my daily driver. I know people do it, and drive it around everywhere too, but it would be too much for me to put up with all the time. Maybe I'll just wait and see if GM produces a turbo kit from GMPP... or worse case scenario, I can just replace the pistons with lower CR aftermarket bits...
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Well, that makes sense...but Turbo-deisels aren't regularly blowing up - and those have...what, 15:1+ CRs? Again, I'm no "expert"; just putting it out there.
turbo diesels also have bigger blocks to start out with, they also work thru the diesel cycle instead of the otto cycle where diesels use compression ignition (which is actually detonation/knock, depending on how you look at it) instead of spark plugs. they are made to run with high compression....its the basis for operation for a diesel motor. i thought you knew that...


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I'm not looking for extreme amounts of boost - I'm not saying "This is the amount of boost I want and heres what I want to do to get there," I'm saying "I want as much boost as I can safely create without modifying the internals." If thats 5 psi, so be it. If its 9 psi, all the better. Now, I can't get away with tearing out everything that isn't bolted on, or putting on slicks, because this will be my daily driver. I know people do it, and drive it around everywhere too, but it would be too much for me to put up with all the time. Maybe I'll just wait and see if GM produces a turbo kit from GMPP... or worse case scenario, I can just replace the pistons with lower CR aftermarket bits...
- Xanthos
5 psi should be fine, 9 psi intercooled would probably be ok as well, but it will be a "trial" and "blow your motor up" basis till you get it right. i wouldnt mess with it honestly. id much rather run a supercharger on the LS3...

but then again im not a big fan of turbos to begin with.


now when thinking forced induction...keep this pic in mind...

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Old 08-05-2008, 09:53 AM   #8
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turbo diesels also have bigger blocks to start out with, they also work thru the diesel cycle instead of the otto cycle where diesels use compression ignition (which is actually detonation/knock, depending on how you look at it) instead of spark plugs. they are made to run with high compression....its the basis for operation for a diesel motor. i thought you knew that...
I do know that: diesel engines are basicall where direct inection originated. But you sounded like you were talking about the CR itself, not fuel, or ignition cycles...Still, like you said above about diesels: SIDI engines are made to run with high compression (relative to non-SIDI), right?
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Old 08-05-2008, 10:36 AM   #9
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Thats an interesting question... I didn't think about using an intercooler... Intercooled systems make more power than non-intercooled systems, right? So maybe a 5 psi intercooled system would be enough power to reach a 13 et without changing out the engine components - especially if I run it on premium fuel, that way the engine doesn't have to retard the timing...
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Old 08-05-2008, 10:47 AM   #10
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I have to agree with spike. The thing you have to be concerned with is the Compression Ratio.

5 psi with the static CR will be safe reliable and a ton of fun.

9 psi with an inner cooler... That is on the edge of reliability and I would be nervous every time I went WOT.

But, I think if you understand that you can go either way.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:13 AM   #11
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Yeah... maybe I'll just go with 5 psi and an intercooler. If I need it faster than that, I can always lighten the flywheel and the crank pulley like I had originally wanted. And theres always premium gas when I want more power...
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:30 PM   #12
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i have a feeling with a tt kit and some bolt ons you'd be able to break into 12's
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:41 PM   #13
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Start with traction modifications, and go from there. You will surprise yourself with the time improvements just from mounts, strut bats, and stuff like that.

Everything else you propose would be kind of dangerous. I don't know the limits of the LLT internals, but I imagine you'd be much better off rebuilding the motor for this. You're looking at a serious project, and you should aim high for performance. What you want can be done, but you don't want to push your motor too hard without backing it up with top notch parts, like pistons and connecting rods.
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Old 08-07-2008, 04:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanthosV6 View Post
Planning on doing a twin turbo setup on the V6 camaro that I purchase (once I cut open the fender gills I'll need something to use that newfound airflow for, right?). However, I can't decide whether I want to do a 5 psi setup, or a 9 psi setup. I understand the obvious - 9 psi will produce more power than 5 psi. The not-so-obvious though, is what I'm not sure about.

A) I don't want to modify the engine internals in any way, except possibly some higher flow injectors. I would be worried about pre-ignition, but the VVT *should* take care of that if my understanding of the system is correct.

B) I don't want to hurt fuel economy very much - namely, as long as I can keep my foot out of it, I don't want it to have any worse fuel economy than the stock car did. I don't mind running 89 octane fuel, however (but, as I said above, the VVT *should* make this only necessary to gain more power)

My total goal is to reach a 13 second ET, without changing the stock internals or using a more aggressive tune (was going to have the car tuned after the turbos, but back to the stock A/F ratios). I *think* this should be possible with a 5 psi setup, but I'm fairly certain it will be at 9 psi. SO... mostly I want to know if 9 psi would be a bad idea...
- Xanthos
Standard atmospheric pressure is 14 lbs. So adding 5 lbs of pressure is adding 35% more air, the more air: the more oxygen: the fuel can be burned: more power (it should put you around 400 hp at the crank). 9 lbs of boost = 64% more = just shy of 500 at the crank.

Intercoolers are needed because when you compress air it gets hot. Hot air is less dense (thats why hot air rises). The more boost you run, the hotter it gets. An intercooler cools the air back down increasing its density. And denser air has more oxygen which leads to more power. So there's the basics behind turbos and intercoolers (I think a post like this is needed ever few months on car forums)

Anyway, the V6 should be able to get you where you want with some minor bolt ons and other little upgrades. Plus, things like sticky tires are needed when you try and make the power you are looking at. so do that first and see how you do
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Old 08-07-2008, 04:21 PM   #15
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Well, what kinds of N/A mods could I do then for under about 5 grand? I'll be using it as my daily driver, so track tires aren't an option... Do you think I'd be able to up the suspension enough to reach 13 second et? I don't know much about tuning out fuel injected cars... I got my IROC to about 5 seconds flat 0-60, but it had a carbed 86 truck 305 (210 stock HP, 250 stock tq). I just bolted on an edelbrock with a K&N Filter, put glass packs on instead of the stock mufflers, and dismantled the entire emissions system. What kind of stuff can you do, cheaply and easily, on a DI? Upgrade the throttle body, lighten the flywheel, higher flow injectors (does DI use injectors? I thought it did, just in a different place), and retune? What kinds of suspension mods would you suggest? I was already thinking about thicker roll bars and a strut tower brace to reduce body roll and flex, but I don't know much about the kind of mods needed for quicker drag times...
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanthosV6 View Post
Thats an interesting question... I didn't think about using an intercooler... Intercooled systems make more power than non-intercooled systems, right? So maybe a 5 psi intercooled system would be enough power to reach a 13 et without changing out the engine components - especially if I run it on premium fuel, that way the engine doesn't have to retard the timing...
- Xanthos
if the system is identical, then yes intercooled should provide more power due to the denser/cooler air charge

you are wanting to hit 13s. thats easy as pie. pull a lil weight off the vehicle, set up the suspension, throw some slicks on it and hang on.
you dont need to go FI for that. and plus for all the money you'll spend trying to fab something up for the car, you could dump that on some slicks and suspension upgrades and be hitting 13s easy

Quote:
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Yeah... maybe I'll just go with 5 psi and an intercooler. If I need it faster than that, I can always lighten the flywheel and the crank pulley like I had originally wanted. And theres always premium gas when I want more power...
- Xanthos
be careful with lightening the flywheel, they tend to whine or otherwise make noise after they lose the weight. however, thats a lot to mess with just to get to the flywheel to lose weight. swap out to some lighter wheels/tires, pull everything that isnt bolted down inside the car. swap to a CAI, maybe exhaust, pull off all the lil covers inside the engine bay. every pound lost helps


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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Start with traction modifications, and go from there. You will surprise yourself with the time improvements just from mounts, strut bats, and stuff like that.

Everything else you propose would be kind of dangerous. I don't know the limits of the LLT internals, but I imagine you'd be much better off rebuilding the motor for this. You're looking at a serious project, and you should aim high for performance. What you want can be done, but you don't want to push your motor too hard without backing it up with top notch parts, like pistons and connecting rods.

traction traction traction... its all about suspension. period. no use making crap tons of power if you cant put it to use.

and as far as going with top notch parts, dont skimp out when building a motor. do plenty of research on FI, intercoolers, oiling systems, wastegates and other stuff needed for a custom setup.

also keep this in mind:

Cheap
Fast
Reliable

pick 2.


Quote:
Originally Posted by XanthosV6 View Post
Well, what kinds of N/A mods could I do then for under about 5 grand? I'll be using it as my daily driver, so track tires aren't an option... Do you think I'd be able to up the suspension enough to reach 13 second et? I don't know much about tuning out fuel injected cars... I got my IROC to about 5 seconds flat 0-60, but it had a carbed 86 truck 305 (210 stock HP, 250 stock tq). I just bolted on an edelbrock with a K&N Filter, put glass packs on instead of the stock mufflers, and dismantled the entire emissions system. What kind of stuff can you do, cheaply and easily, on a DI? Upgrade the throttle body, lighten the flywheel, higher flow injectors (does DI use injectors? I thought it did, just in a different place), and retune? What kinds of suspension mods would you suggest? I was already thinking about thicker roll bars and a strut tower brace to reduce body roll and flex, but I don't know much about the kind of mods needed for quicker drag times...
- Xanthos
CAI
Exhaust
suspension
Cam
Rockers
suspension
slicks (they can sit in your closet when not using them)
nitrous
tune
suspension
did i mention suspension?
:A-arms, wheels/tires, stb, subframe connectors
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Old 08-08-2008, 12:47 AM   #17
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I am making this my daily driver, after all, and I'm not looking for a car that can do a 13 second pass at the track but can only pull 14 on the street - I want it to make a 13 second pass at the track in the same setup that I use when I drive to work in the evening...

Ok, with that said, how about...

short ram intake
custom header-back exhaust
--->magnaflow high flow cats
--->flowmaster delta flow 40 series mufflers
--->resonator delete
throttle body coolant line bypass
tune
strut tower brace
thicker anti-roll bars, front and rear
stiffer rear springs
control arms (upper/lower)
subframe connectors
20 x 8.5 inch rims on all four corners, w/ Nitto Invo 245/45/20 tires
3.45 rear

Would this be good enough for that 13 second pass? Like I said, I've only ever tuned a carbed 305 camaro, and I didn't really do all that much to it. I am very minimally technically minded when it comes to cars...
-Xanthos

P.S - What about an ignition system upgrade? I know when I replaced the distributer and coil on the camaro it gave me a pretty decent power boost, at least in SOTP terms, but then again that was an old eighties ignition system - I could have just been resuming "stock" power levels.
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:13 PM   #18
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CAI
Exhaust
suspension
Cam
Rockers
suspension
slicks (they can sit in your closet when not using them)
nitrous
tune
suspension
did i mention suspension?
:A-arms, wheels/tires, stb, subframe connectors
A DOHC doesn't have rockers and it has 4 cams.....FYI
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by XanthosV6 View Post
short ram intake
custom header-back exhaust
--->magnaflow high flow cats
--->flowmaster delta flow 40 series mufflers
--->resonator delete
throttle body coolant line bypass
tune
strut tower brace
thicker anti-roll bars, front and rear
stiffer rear springs
control arms (upper/lower)
subframe connectors
20 x 8.5 inch rims on all four corners, w/ Nitto Inzo 245/45/20 tires
3.45 rear

P.S - What about an ignition system upgrade? I know when I replaced the distributer and coil on the camaro it gave me a pretty decent power boost, at least in SOTP terms, but then again that was an old eighties ignition system - I could have just been resuming "stock" power levels.
Thicker roll bars will only add weight and slow you down. They are better for carving corners, but not good for drag racing. Also, 20x8.5" wheels will also add weight and will make your sidewall thinner giving you less traction. You are better off staying with 18" wheels or smaller if you are looking for speed. It will also help your braking distances too. Just get a better tire for the stock wheels, or get a nice looking set of 18" wheels.

The Ignition system is more than enough for what you are looking to do. There isn't much to upgrade other than the wires which are sufficient enough for what you want to do.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:53 AM   #20
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A DOHC doesn't have rockers and it has 4 cams.....FYI
Technically it does...just not, pushrod-type rockers. I'm sure there's a specific name for what I'm thinking of, but it's just not coming to me atm...
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:53 AM   #21
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Some good and some bad info in here. DGthe3 hit most of the good facts in his post. One of other thing I'm compelled to add is throw out the idea of twin turbos. Completely useless for the application you are talking about. A single T4 turbo housing (you can customize it from there) will spin up plenty quick and provide more than enough air for a <1 bar application in an LLT.

Also while there were some thoughtful posts about the high CR in the LLT, the fact of the matter is we have no idea about this engine. Chevy has built some gems...I bring to the table the 4.3L of the Sy/Ty in the 90's. >15 PSI in STOCK FORM, same exact engine in any other S-10 or Blazer of the same generation and it handled boost like a champ and there's still lots of those trucks on the road today. Don't underestimate the power of a good factory engine.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:19 PM   #22
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Wait... maybe I'm just slow, but how would you handle a single turbo on a dual exhaust setup? Where would you put the thing? Just along one of the exhaust pipes, or at the X pipe, or what?
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:19 PM   #23
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You can stay pretty basic with your goal. Full exhaust, intake, mounts, tires, and a decent tune will probably get you to your destination of 13 flat. You don't need to go turbo, and certainly not twin turbo for something like that. But who knows how hard tuning is going to be on this thing.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:26 PM   #24
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I'm shooting for 10's with my TT setup

I'm hoping low 10's, but I really DON'T want to break into the 9's, cuz then I'll need to put in a roll cage and all of that.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:29 PM   #25
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Well, obviously I'd be happy with lower than 13 seconds, but I'd also be happy with 13 seconds. Make sense?
And I'm still trying to figure out how a single turbo would work on a dual exhaust...
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