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Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing Discussions on mechanical maintenance and servicing of your Camaro

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Old 12-26-2009, 02:49 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bballr4567 View Post
People in here saying that its snake oil but then using Mobil 1 "synthetic" is kind of funny to me.
How so? GM recommends syn for all LS series V8's. Probably has something to do with reducing carbon deposits in that engine amoing other things.
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by 67MellowYellow View Post
How so? GM recommends syn for all LS series V8's. Probably has something to do with reducing carbon deposits in that engine amoing other things.
Quote:
Hydrocracked/Hydroisomerized = API Group III base oils. Chevron, Shell, and other petrochemical companies developed processes involving catalytic conversion of feed stocks under pressure in the presence of hydrogen into high quality mineral lubricating oil. In 2005 production of GTL (Gas-to-liquid) Group III base stocks began. Even though they are considered a synthetic product they are still mineral base stocks and counted as the mineral part of all semi-synthetic lubricants. Group III base stocks [with certain amount of mixture of PAOs and esters and Group V] are considered synthetic motor oil ONLY in the United States. Group III based lubricants are not allowed to be marketed as "synthetic" in any market outside of the USA.
Mobil 1 also fits into that group. They are only synthetics in the US and NO WHERE else in the world.

Mobil 1 is the factory fill because Mobil 1 pays GM the most.
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:05 PM   #28
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So for you Canada people, can you get Mobil 1 synthetic in your auto parts stores?
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Old 12-26-2009, 04:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bballr4567 View Post
Mobil 1 also fits into that group. They are only synthetics in the US and NO WHERE else in the world.

Mobil 1 is the factory fill because Mobil 1 pays GM the most.
Where did you find that Mobile 1 is not a true Synthetic oil? I can't find anything like that...

I did find on the Mobil Canada website that many places sells Mobil 1 Synthetic in Canada

Quote:
Where can I find Mobil 1 with SuperSyn in Canada?


Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is available at a wide range of retail locations, including mass merchants, membership clubs, auto-parts stores, Esso service stations and Esso Associates. Many quick-lube shops and car dealerships also carry Mobil 1 with SuperSyn and will install it for you. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is also available at Canadian Tire, Wal-Mart, Loblaws Superstore, Home Hardware, TruServ, Mr. Lube, Central Auto Parts, Uniselect and UAP/NAPA and other locations.


I did find this website that has alot of myths about Oils and Oil Changes...

http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Introduction
Here is an exerpt about Synthetics.

Quote:
Synthetic Oil

Advantages of Synthetic
Synthetic oil was originally developed for high performance racing engines. Mobil tried to popularize synthetic oil for passenger vehicles back in the early 1970's. At the time, Mobil was promoting 20K or 25K oil changes with synthetic, but they soon backed down from this. Synthetic oil is a good choice if you have a vehicle with a high performance engine (in fact synthetic is required for many of these engines). It is also a good choice if your vehicle is operated in extremely cold climates. It has higher resistance to breakdown caused by heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Unfortunately for the synthetic oil industry there is virtually no advantage to using synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that is operated in moderate climates. You probably could go a bit longer between oil changes with a synthetic, i.e. following the normal service schedule even if you fall into the severe service category, but I wouldn't advise this. In short, synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using an oil that is far better than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear or extend the life of the engine. The mistake some people make it to wrongly extrapolate these benefits onto normal engines operated in mild climates, with the ultimate lack of any knowledge being manifested with statements such as "synthetics provide 'Peace of Mind,' or 'Cheap Insurance,'" or other such nonsense.

Extended Change Intervals
Most manufacturers of synthetic oil advise users to not exceed the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval. Part of this is self interest (they don't want to be liable for any damage) but the real reason is that synthetic oil, while it does have certain advantages, still becomes contaminated.

Be extremely wary of synthetic oil companies that offer to pay for your repairs if it is determined that their oil and their extended change interval recommendation caused the problem. Think for a moment of the incredible hassle you would have to go through to prove responsibility for an engine problem. Who would pay your legal bills? Who would pay for replacement transportation during the battle? The more bizarre the warranty the poorer the product is a good rule of thumb.

API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Amsoil
Amsoil actually makes some very good products. The negative image of Amsoil is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach. If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other synthetics, and if I could buy them in a store, I would not hesitate to use their XL-7500 synthetic as opposed to Mobil 1. What upsets me about Amsoil is that they didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified. In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed to the distrust that people have of the company.

Summary

1. Don't fall for the 3000 mile myth or the dark oil myth

2. Follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service or have an oil analysis performed to see if you can use the normal service interval

3. If you do the oil changes yourself then buy the oil and filters near the date of the oil change and keep a maintenance log with receipts

4. Use an API certified 5W30 or 10W30 oil (whatever your manual says is preferred) and watch out for oil change places that force 10W30 on you

5. Don't use oil additives

6. If you really want to know the optimum time to change your oil than have oil analyses performed

7. Use the manufacturer filter or a quality after-market filter (don't go by brand name recognition!)

8. Synthetic oil is a good choice if you have a high performance engine or if you live in an extremely cold climate, otherwise it provides no benefit (but no harm either).

9. Avoid engine flushes

10. Check your oil
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:47 PM   #30
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How can it be that some additive manufacturer can have a miracle, cure-all additive without knowing the chemistry of the oil it will be used in? The answer is, they don't. They are masters at marketing, not science chemistry and engineering.

Anecdotal evidence based solely on the experiences of individual consumers and testimonials reporting specific performance attributes in the absence of reliable independent evidence showing performance capability is insufficient to support product claims.

All of these products are just psychological placebos. Simply use a good quality oil, it will have all the additives your engine needs, mixed right in. Oil additives only serve to lessen the effectiveness of your oil's additives and lubrication properties.

The Bottom Line Don't use any oil additives whatsoever, NONE of them are effective and many are damaging. Simply use a good quality oil, its got all the additives you need
If your oil is good, then your car will run just fine. If you have to add stuff to it, then pick another oil. Additives are bad. Keep it simple.
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:45 PM   #31
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If your oil is good, then your car will run just fine. If you have to add stuff to it, then pick another oil. Additives are bad. Keep it simple.
well that's one opinion, not scientifically based, each to their own. Just because you think it is so doesn't make it so
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:02 PM   #32
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I'm learning a lot from this thread.
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:45 PM   #33
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:48 PM   #34
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:38 PM   #35
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Zmax was sued for fraud. Check out this link at the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.shtm
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:06 AM   #36
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Where did you find that Mobile 1 is not a true Synthetic oil? I can't find anything like that...
It cant be called a FULL synthetic. I left that out on accident.

Anywhere else in the world if the oil uses a Group III base stock (basically natural petroleum based) then it cant be called fully synthetic. Group IV is ACTUALLY fully synthetic and there are very few oils out there today that is.

Regardless, Mobil 1 went to court to retain the right to call it a full syn in the US. They won so the name stayed when they switched to Group III in 02-03 (dont really remember the exact date they changed) so that they could make more money off their oil while keeping the price for the consumer the same.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:16 AM   #37
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Heres is some good information on AMSOIL thier oil is API certified and meets GM 4718M standards. This is just their top of the line oil they have 5W30 as well and yes for those of you that are going to be asking I am a dealer of it. I was a customer for the longest time before I became a dealer and it is not my bread maker I mostly became a dealer as it was cheaper for me. I use it in 5 personal vehicles right now along with the boats and four wheelers and even lawn equipment. All I can say is do some research on your own.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil is the industry benchmark in lubrication technology. Engineered with the world’s finest synthetic base oils and high performance additives, AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 is designed for those who demand the absolute best in motor oil performance. The exclusive “extended drain” formulation delivers superior engine protection and maximum fuel economy. AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 is a premium grade synthetic motor oil that exceeds the requirements of modern, high-performance engines and older engines. It replaces other 0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30 motor oils and consistently outperforms competitive conventional and synthetic motor oils.

AMSOIL, the leader in automotive synthetic lubrication, produced the world’s first API qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972. Trust the extensive experience of AMSOIL The First in Synthetics® to do the best job protecting your engine.

Extends Drain Intervals
AMSOIL Signature 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil lasts much longer in service than conventional oils. Its unique synthetic formulation and long drain additive system resist oxidation and neutralize the acids that shorten the service life of other oils. AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 delivers the best possible engine protection, cleanliness and performance over extended drain intervals, reducing vehicle maintenance and waste oil disposal costs.

Maximizes Fuel Efficiency
The lightweight molecular structure of AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil reduces energy loss from the “drag” common to high viscosity oils. It is fortified with additives that enhance its friction-reducing properties to help further improve fuel efficiency.

Reduces Wear
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil contains specialized anti-wear technology. Its durable, high temperature film strength effectively separates metal surfaces to reduce wear even under the most grueling conditions. Tests prove that AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 provides better protection against wear than other motor oils (see graph). AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 helps engines last longer.



Resists Heat, Reduces Oil Consumption and Emissions
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil is thermally stable with a strong resistance to high temperature volatility (burn-off). It is heavily fortified with detergent and dispersant additives designed to prevent sludge deposits and keep engines clean. Low volatility and clean operation reduce oil consumption and emissions.

Provides Outstanding Cold Flow Properties
Unlike conventional oils, AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 contains no wax. Its exceptional -60°F cold flow properties ease starting and reduce bearing wear.

APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil is recommended for use in gasoline engines, diesel engines (API CF, ACEA B5) and other applications requiring SAE 0W-30, 5W-30 or 10W-30 with the following worldwide specifications:

• API SM/CF, SL, SJ …
• ILSAC GF-4, 3 …
• ACEA A5/B5-04
• GM 4718M, 6094M
• Ford WSS-M2C929-A
• Honda HTO-06
• Daimler Chrysler MS-6395N
• VW 503.00

Mixing AMSOIL
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 is compatible with conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the oil life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed.

Aftermarket oil additives are not recommended for use with AMSOIL motor oils.

Service Life
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil is recommended for extended drain intervals in unmodified(1), mechanically sound(2) gasoline fueled vehicles as follows:

• Normal Service(3) – Up to 35,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.
• Severe Service(4) – Up to 17,500 miles or one year, whichever comes first.
• Replace AMSOIL Ea oil filter at the time of oil change up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first (other brands at standard OEM* intervals).
• In all non-gasoline fueled vehicle applications, extend the oil change interval according to oil analysis or follow the OEM* drain interval.

*OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer

(1) Engines operating under modified conditions are excluded from extended drain recommendations. Examples include the use of performance computer chips; non-OEM approved exhaust, fuel or air induction systems; and the use of fuels other than those recommended for normal operation by the manufacturer.

(2) Mechanically sound engines are in good working condition and do not, for example, leak oil or consume excessive amounts, are not worn out, do not overheat, do not leak anti-freeze and have properly working emission control systems. AMSOIL recommends repairing malfunctioning engines prior to the installation of AMSOIL synthetic oils.

(3) Personal vehicles frequently traveling greater than 10 miles (16km) at a time and not operating under severe service.

(4) Turbo or supercharged vehicles, commercial or fleet vehicles, extensive engine idling, first and subsequent use of AMSOIL in vehicles with over 100,000 miles, daily short trip driving less than 10 miles (16km), frequent towing, plowing, hauling or dusty condition driving.

AMSOIL Ea full-flow oil filters are designed for extended drain intervals. They stop smaller particles, flow more oil and last longer than regular filters. For best performance, use AMSOIL Ea full-flow oil filters.

HEALTH & SAFETY
This product is not expected to cause health concerns when used for the intended application and according to the recommendations in the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). An MSDS is available upon request at 715-392-7101 or on our website. Keep out of the reach of children. Don't pollute. Return used oil to collection centers.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:18 AM   #38
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Man this was some good night time snooze reading, lots of info here. I'm real tired now thanks. By the way I threw that mineral oil in along with the gas treatment.Was getiing 15-city 19 highway. Mineral oil gets me 19-20 city 22 highway. Good night,this sucker needs to sleep some!
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Old 12-27-2009, 10:22 AM   #39
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Also, if you can get a 0W30 then get it! Especially during winter as it only provides more cold start protection.
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:04 AM   #40
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Well, I use Royal Purple. I also still use Z-Max. Let's see in oh ten years who has more out of pocket engine expenses. Bet I win. Many people have knee-jerk reactions. Mine are based on pure science and testing. Yes extensive testing. For a few dollars, more horsepower, lower friction, longer engine life, better gas mileage. I will continue spending a little more for a lot of benefits.
I have 465k on 3 LS1 engines with Mobil1 or Pennzoil Platinum and a Wix, Mobil1 or K&N filter. None burn ANY oil, have a significant compression issue and still get 22-24 mpg.

I have never used ANY additives. I change my oil at 8-9k and occasionally have my oil analyzed through Blackstone. Preventive and scheduled maintenance is the key.

Point?

Here come the AVON and Mary Kay ladies....

The Blur is right on...You do NOT need to use an oil additive with a new 2010 Camaro SS.

To further...

You do not need to use an oil or fuel additive on any new car that you use top tier fuel or oil. If the car has 120k on the odometer, clean the MAF, TPS, fog the intake, Seafoam the upper cylinder and valves.

Again...if you used top tier products to begin with, you will likely NEVER have any issues down the road.
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:26 AM   #41
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Zmax was sued for fraud. Check out this link at the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.shtm
Here is a list of everyone who won or lost against the FTC. Notice this dates back to 2001.

http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:35 AM   #42
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Top Tier all the way and you won't need additives and will have the best performance and longest usage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee View Post
I have 465k on 3 LS1 engines with Mobil1 or Pennzoil Platinum and a Wix, Mobil1 or K&N filter. None burn ANY oil, have a significant compression issue and still get 22-24 mpg.

I have never used ANY additives. I change my oil at 8-9k and occasionally have my oil analyzed through Blackstone. Preventive and scheduled maintenance is the key.

Point?

Here come the AVON and Mary Kay ladies....

The Blur is right on...You do NOT need to use an oil additive with a new 2010 Camaro SS.

To further...

You do not need to use an oil or fuel additive on any new car that you use top tier fuel or oil. If the car has 120k on the odometer, clean the MAF, TPS, fog the intake, Seafoam the upper cylinder and valves.

Again...if you used top tier products to begin with, you will likely NEVER have any issues down the road.
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:51 PM   #43
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I wonder how many people here have stopped by to read this thread that use the ZMaz Product and havent said anything yet?

I went to Advanced Auto Parts and bought myself the Zmax box set of the Engine/Gas Treatment, I was thinking of using it on the 2nd oil change, I dont know why but probably not,... and geting my 1st oil change at like 3000 mile or something like that.

Does Anyone know when they suggest changing the oil in the Transmission for the first time on the 2SS Manual?
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:59 PM   #44
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Owners manual DOES NOT RECOMMEND oil additives....is that so hard to understand...what part of NO don't you understand? dah.............
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Old 12-28-2009, 11:41 PM   #45
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Owners manual DOES NOT RECOMMEND oil additives....is that so hard to understand...what part of NO don't you understand? dah.............
The owners Manual also says not to go over 4000 RPM's for the first 1500 Miles yet how many people are following that NHRA Thread?

There's no reason to get rude. It's all good.

Jim
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:58 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyby View Post
well that's one opinion, not scientifically based, each to their own. Just because you think it is so doesn't make it so
it is scientific fact that some additives can counteract the additives that ARE ALREADY IN most every motor oil. which can then cause decreased performance and protection.


yes, read that again. most every oil marketed today, all synthetics (full or semi) come with additives from the factory to protect against wear and tear. too much of a good thing can be bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strobi View Post
Owners manual DOES NOT RECOMMEND oil additives....is that so hard to understand...what part of NO don't you understand? dah.............
good point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCPW View Post
The owners Manual also says not to go over 4000 RPM's for the first 1500 Miles yet how many people are following that NHRA Thread?

There's no reason to get rude. It's all good.

Jim

that recomendation is also to prolong the life of the motor/drivetrain. and a lot of the people that are taking the car straight to the track dont care about the longevity of the motor in the normal sense, as they plan to modify things, break things, and upgrade to better, stronger parts.




I cant count how many oil/additive discussions we've had here over the years.

the only "additive" I use, is my oil. and a can of seafoam every 10-20k miles in the gas tank and half a can in my oil every 3rd oil change. I've sent off countless samples of oil to blackstone labs for analysis, running multiple brands of oil and multiple brands of filters. for me personally in my 94Z, I've found that Royal Purple 10w-40 and a wix filter works the best. same with my truck (only I run 5w-30 in the truck).

oil additives are like those $50.00 ebay tuner chips that will "give you 20% increase in power" and "15 more mpg".

buy them if you want. I wouldnt waste the money.

you might think you are doing better for your car by spending more money on every little gimmick out there that could possibly do some good for your car, but all you are doing is throwing money away. this isnt some hypersonic jet engine. its a chevy small block. pick an oil you like, pick a filter you like and forget the extra additives.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:31 PM   #47
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Skyman 08 - Would you care to repeat any of the bizare excuses that Amsoil had for not being API and how you come about this information. Just curious when someone slams something good.
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Old 12-29-2009, 07:16 PM   #48
Angrybird 12
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Drives: 12 CAMARO 1LT, 08 Vue, 14 Spark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmbarberoilman View Post
Skyman 08 - Would you care to repeat any of the bizare excuses that Amsoil had for not being API and how you come about this information. Just curious when someone slams something good.
HUH?
To my knowlege I never Slammed Amsoil.. I posted an artical I read online about synthetic oils (the link to the artical is posted with it http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Introduction ), and IT mentioned some amsoil products were not API certified. I NEVER said it myself. I have never used Amsoil and have no personal opinion about it.

Please do not shoot the messanger.
If you want to complain contact the writer of the artical, he has a link to contact him on that page.
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Previous Camaros: 1974, 1979 and 2010.

Last edited by Angrybird 12; 12-29-2009 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 12-29-2009, 07:26 PM   #49
Angrybird 12
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Drives: 12 CAMARO 1LT, 08 Vue, 14 Spark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strobi View Post
Owners manual DOES NOT RECOMMEND oil additives....is that so hard to understand...what part of NO don't you understand? dah.............
If you would read some of the break in threads, you would know many on here don't belive what the owners manual says about taking care of the engine...according to them the owner's manual was written by lawyers not engineers..LOL
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Previous Camaros: 1974, 1979 and 2010.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:27 PM   #50
flyby

 
Drives: 2010 Silver SS
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The difference between the way I have approached everything related to this car and apparently many others is this. I go into the subject, whatever it may be, with an open mind and no preconcieved notions. I do alot of reading from multiple sources then try many different resolutions to the question. I have no axe to grind or dogs in the fight. I just want to try and do what works best. You may not like my results, you may disagree with my results, but I have all the evidence to back up my results, not conjecture, other peoples opinions or advertisements. I plan to continue experimenting. If you already have your mind made up, good for you. But to attempt to push your opinion as the best or "scientific" with only other peoples evidence for me does not make any case. Especially when you quote law suits that were not law suits and supposed science that has an equal amount of evidence on the other side. Results, not rhetoric matter. Thats the way I see it.
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