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Old 08-11-2008, 11:19 PM   #1
Muscle Master
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War in Russia

Anyone heard about it, For those who had heard about it, I'm not a fan of war but who does American government think they are for saying the Russian's are wrong for fighting off the edge of there border, does anyone remembers ""operation Iraqi Freedom"

But... If Russia is conducting ethnic cleansing, the U.N. should act

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Old 08-12-2008, 12:15 AM   #2
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Call it a war in Georgia. That's more correct. Russia has yet to be invaded.

For political correctness, allow me to reiterate what is happening.

South Ossetia seceded from Georgia, much like the Confederacy seceded from the Union in the Civil War. In this case, South Ossetia succeeded. Apparently, Russia either wants South Ossetia to remain independent or to be part of Russia. South Ossetia seeks to be included in Russia. Georgia wants to maintain its territorial integrity by maintaining South Ossetia. Before this, Georgia was part of the Russian mainland for over 200 years.

Georgia contains a major oil pipeline that feeds oil to the West. In addition, Georgia has been seeking to partake in the NATO alliance like its southern neighbor, Turkey. NATO has not yet accepted Georgia's application. Additionally, Georgia is a nation supported by the US. In effect, the Russian invasion of Georgia polarizes the United States. This is a unique situation for both countries and the world since this potentially violates Democratic Peace Theory, a theory that concludes that no democracies will declare war on one another since democracies are naturally allied. By creating this conflict, Georgia poses the US and Russia against one another.

Now you ask: "Why did The_Blur put the blame on Georgia?" Georgia began a serious intrusion into its renegade province of South Ossetia. Russia, a country that has granted Russian passports to most civilians in the region, has sought to protect the region. For the civilians in South Ossetia, Russia is the good guy. The United States seeks to keep Georgia allied for economic reasons, specifically regarding oil.

Below are possible outcomes of the current situation.

If Russia annexes only South Ossetia, it will create temporary hostility between the US and Russia.

If Russia annexes Georgia, oil prices in the US and Europe will rise, creating tense relations with Russia and a possible second Cold War.

If Russia seeks to annex multiple former Soviet republics, Russia will be seen as an empire and war will be imminent. Europe and the United States will be forced into a conventional war not unlike World War II. It is important to note that no nation has successfully invaded Russia and caused it to surrender via Moscow due to climate conditions and a strong defense near the capital. Such a war would likely involve nuclear arms at some point early in the war, plummeting the US and Russia into a violent exchange, likely involving catastrophic casualties.

Below is some final analysis.

The US is likely to give diplomatic opposition to Russian tactics regarding the Georgia issue. As a result, Russia will continue its push into Georgia until the nation is totally subdued. Until then, no one will truly know Russia's intentions.

The US is not likely to engage Russian troops since they have the upper hand. Neither country seeks nuclear confrontation. Despite this, Russia has more to gain by being involved than the United States. As a result, expect the US to stay out of the conflict but maintain staunch opposition to Russia in the meantime. Unfortunately, the US is not likely to get involved directly.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:34 AM   #3
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I think America has no bussiness in other countries affairs. We dont need another Iraq situation. its brought nothing but hell.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:38 AM   #4
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I think America has no bussiness in other countries affairs. We dont need another Iraq situation. its brought nothing but hell.
This is far bigger than Iraq. Getting involved could be worse than World War II. This would be the most costly war in world history if the US got involved against Russia. I'm not saying that Russia is a superior power, but Russia isn't exactly a less-than-equal match. Russia still possesses the necessary units to bring America to its knees. If we get involved, I'd recommend everyone get out of major cities.
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:02 AM   #5
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This is far bigger than Iraq. Getting involved could be worse than World War II. This would be the most costly war in world history if the US got involved against Russia. I'm not saying that Russia is a superior power, but Russia isn't exactly a less-than-equal match. Russia still possesses the necessary units to bring America to its knees. If we get involved, I'd recommend everyone get out of major cities.
Do you know how much the Russian population out number us and with today's technology its going to be crazy, I hope this never happen but If we do go to war Russia could kick our asses if we invaded, .no if the U.N. invaded
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:27 AM   #6
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Georgia-overrun-Russian-troops-scale-ground-invasion-begins

i'm not taking sides just, saying that the daily mail is reporting the ground invasion has begun.
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:33 AM   #7
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If Russia declares war on America(or vise versa) I'm grabbing my PS3, diecasts and Camaro and am fleeing to Armenia where I wont be vaporized by Russia's Hidden Nukes
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:52 AM   #8
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Oh crap.

This won't end well.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:27 AM   #9
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This will be interesting to watch...I'm not convinced any World War will start...Problem is; I haven't a clue what's going on in that region. So I don't know who's the 'good' guys, but I've read in reports that Russia isn't gunning down civilians on purpose.

But I found it VERY intriguing how Putin shoved Iraq into Bush's face when Bush condemned what Russia's doing.

EDIT: This is a pretty good article.
Russia Orders Halt to Fighting
"In Moscow, Medvedev said on national television that Georgia had been punished enough for its attack on South Ossetia."

You'd think this was a game.....
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:16 AM   #10
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Look-War is money.
The arms manufacturers tell me unless
we get our bomb factories up to full production
the whole economy is going to collapse
Funny how a song written in the 80's is still relevant today.

The rules changed in '68. Nobody wins a war anymore.

Vietnam? The combined communist forces of North Vietnam were declared victorious in the Tet Offensive. Let's see, they lost more than 10:1 killed, failed to achieve even one objective and left themselves crippled for months to come. The US could have marched right into Hanoi unabated. How is that a victory?
3 decades later, western capitalists are setting up shop in Vietnam, just like old times. Bought a t-shirt from WalMart lately? Bet it says, MADE IN VIETNAM by sweatshop laborers make slave wages just like colonial French Indochina days....well the first 3 words anyway. Uncle Ho Chi Minh and Chairman Mao are wringing their hands in disgust at the decline of their "Proletarian Paradises"

Like the 2006 Lebanon war? "oh, Hezbollah won that"
Not so much. Lebanon's infrastructure is screwed for a long time. Way to go Hezbollah! You screwed your entire country for a largely ceremonial "victory".

The Falklands? What exactly did the UK win? The only real winner in that conflict was the French when they're air to ship Exocet missiles were proven effective against Her Majesty's Navy.
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Old 08-12-2008, 02:32 PM   #11
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If Russia declares war on America(or vise versa) I'm grabbing my PS3, diecasts and Camaro and am fleeing to Armenia where I wont be vaporized by Russia's Hidden Nukes
Armenia is too close to the warzone. I'd recommend somewhere like Japan.

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This will be interesting to watch...I'm not convinced any World War will start...Problem is; I haven't a clue what's going on in that region. So I don't know who's the 'good' guys, but I've read in reports that Russia isn't gunning down civilians on purpose.

But I found it VERY intriguing how Putin shoved Iraq into Bush's face when Bush condemned what Russia's doing.

EDIT: This is a pretty good article.
Russia Orders Halt to Fighting
"In Moscow, Medvedev said on national television that Georgia had been punished enough for its attack on South Ossetia."

You'd think this was a game.....
Russia is pretty bold to do all of this just to punish little Georgia.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:20 PM   #12
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Armenia is too close to the warzone. I'd recommend somewhere like Japan.



Russia is pretty bold to do all of this just to punish little Georgia.
Armenia= my homeland

Plus, to give an analogy, Armenia is like Russia's little brother. Several years ago when Turkey threatened to invade Armenia Russia sent ambassadors to Turkey "recommending' that they keep to themselves.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:07 PM   #13
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So, short version is US likes Georgia (probably because they oppose Russia) but they haven't been 'behaving' as nicely as we think they should. On the whole, I say this conflict has very little to do with the west. As long as they fight by the 'rules', I say stay out it.

And war between Russia and the US isn't going to happen. Nobody has anything to gain from it, and Russia has an awful lot to lose. Their navy is rusting in port and their airforce is just as bad. The last 20 years have been really tough on them. The US hasn't had it easy, but your Airforce is just about as potent now as it was then and you still have more carrier deck space than the rest of the world combined. Land conflict is basically out of the question.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:13 PM   #14
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So, short version is US likes Georgia (probably because they oppose Russia) but they haven't been 'behaving' as nicely as we think they should. On the whole, I say this conflict has very little to do with the west. As long as they fight by the 'rules', I say stay out it.

And war between Russia and the US isn't going to happen. Nobody has anything to gain from it, and Russia has an awful lot to lose. Their navy is rusting in port and their airforce is just as bad. The last 20 years have been really tough on them. The US hasn't had it easy, but your Airforce is just about as potent now as it was then and you still have more carrier deck space than the rest of the world combined. Land conflict is basically out of the question.
If we was invading we would be owned by their tanks, that's another thing they out number us with
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:13 PM   #15
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So, short version is US likes Georgia (probably because they oppose Russia) but they haven't been 'behaving' as nicely as we think they should. On the whole, I say this conflict has very little to do with the west. As long as they fight by the 'rules', I say stay out it.

And war between Russia and the US isn't going to happen. Nobody has anything to gain from it, and Russia has an awful lot to lose. Their navy is rusting in port and their airforce is just as bad. The last 20 years have been really tough on them. The US hasn't had it easy, but your Airforce is just about as potent now as it was then and you still have more carrier deck space than the rest of the world combined. Land conflict is basically out of the question.
The only reason I didn't rule out direct confrontation is that Russia had no hesitation to invade Georgia. There were no sanctions or UNSC meetings. It was just all-out war. I'm concerned that Russia is too bold and wouldn't be afraid to flex its muscle. From a political science standpoint, Russia is expected to have drastic policy changes due to leadership change. Putin may still be in the executive, but he is only the Premier. The Russian President has all of the necessary power to go to war. With new leadership comes executive leadership problems. There is no way to prepare to be the president, so new leaders tend to make questionable policy decisions. This may reflect that the new leadership is inexperienced in foreign affairs and perhaps very stubborn, thus creating obstacles to future relations.
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:06 AM   #16
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If we was invading we would be owned by their tanks, that's another thing they out number us with
And why would the US choose to start a land war where they are hopelessly out matched? They would leave their tanks at home and send in F117's, B2's and cruise missiles to destroy command and control first, airfields second, supply depots third (the full strike force of the USAF and USN is now available). The Navy can sink their fleet then blockade the ports. The Red Army on the ground is now helpless. The Sovi . . . Russians would have no way to respond either. Play your strengths against your enemy's weakness. Never let him fight the battle his way. Make him fight your way. That is how you win a war, that is why Iraq and Afghanistan aren't going so well. That is why Vietnam was lost.

Anyhoo, this is about very real conflict in Georgia. Not a hypothetical one between the US and Russia
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:31 AM   #17
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And why would the US choose to start a land war where they are hopelessly out matched? They would leave their tanks at home and send in F117's, B2's and cruise missiles to destroy command and control first, airfields second, supply depots third (the full strike force of the USAF and USN is now available). The Navy can sink their fleet then blockade the ports. The Red Army on the ground is now helpless. The Sovi . . . Russians would have no way to respond either. Play your strengths against your enemy's weakness. Never let him fight the battle his way. Make him fight your way. That is how you win a war, that is why Iraq and Afghanistan aren't going so well. That is why Vietnam was lost.

Anyhoo, this is about very real conflict in Georgia. Not a hypothetical one between the US and Russia
Your right, bad habit of mine, but do you really think the Russians don't know the weaknesses of our armed forces and vice versa, are air forces may be hot shit till they get knocked out of the sky by S.A.M.'s, and as for the navy, thought that the Russians may lack in ship power ( 1 aircraft carrier rusting at port) but they also outnumber us with Subs

The way I see it, the only way to invaded Russia is to send end the 82nd and 101 first airborne to weakend their defense line of there coastal waters and take advantage of are navy and storm the beaches of Russia on the west coast, if the navy don't get torpedoed, I could continue but I wait for your response
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:33 AM   #18
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Or Russia could just nuke the US?
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:00 AM   #19
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Your right, bad habit of mine, but do you really think the Russians don't know the weaknesses of our armed forces and vice versa, are air forces may be hot shit till they get knocked out of the sky by S.A.M.'s, and as for the navy, thought that the Russians may lack in ship power ( 1 aircraft carrier rusting at port) but they also outnumber us with Subs

The way I see it, the only way to invaded Russia is to send end the 82nd and 101 first airborne to weakend their defense line of there coastal waters and take advantage of are navy and storm the beaches of Russia on the west coast, if the navy don't get torpedoed, I could continue but I wait for your response
The Soviet Navy had a huge number of subs. The Russians sold off a bunch of their diesels and have left many of their nuclear boats to rot in port. its quite sad really. And SAMs don't mean squat against cruise missiles and stealth aircraft. They haven't had the money to do much development on counter systems over the last 20 years
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Or Russia could just nuke the US?
And the US turns Russia into a parking lot half an hour later. Mutually Assured Destruction still applies, just as it has for the last 50 years or so.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:12 AM   #20
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If we was invading we would be owned by their tanks, that's another thing they out number us with
That's what A-10 Warthogs are for.


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And the US turns Russia into a parking lot half an hour later. Mutually Assured Destruction still applies, just as it has for the last 50 years or so.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:23 AM   #21
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I don't believe for a minute that Russia's in as bad a shape as they let on.


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And war between Russia and the US isn't going to happen. Nobody has anything to gain from it, and Russia has an awful lot to lose. Their navy is rusting in port and their airforce is just as bad. The last 20 years have been really tough on them. The US hasn't had it easy, but your Airforce is just about as potent now as it was then and you still have more carrier deck space than the rest of the world combined. Land conflict is basically out of the question.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:31 AM   #22
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If we was invading we would be owned by their tanks, that's another thing they out number us with
I'm confident we can go 10+kills:1. I would prefer 10+:0

I can tell you from personal experience as a 19K in the Army, a T-80 < M1

Someone's going to say, "In such and such RPG on PS3 the T-80 rules the M1..."

I'm going to tell you that's bullshit and the guys that coded that game were probably Pakistanis who don't like the US military anyway.

Armor, gunnery, rounds per minute, and of course tank crew themselves, all advantage M1

M1s have taken hits from T-72s at POINT BLANK RANGE and still been able to fight. The commander and loader were injured but the tank was operational and the gunner and driver were uninjured.

If you hit a T-72 with a FSDS (depleted uranium sabot) from 3000+ meters, all the hatches blow open and fire shoots straight up from them about 20 meters high. All 3 crewmembers? Dead. Ability to continue to fight? Zero.

T-62s are even more impressive. They explode sending the turret and the gun in separate directions from the hull.


And that's only if there's anything left for US Armor to kill. The Apaches, Warthogs, and Marine Cobras might just kill everything before the Abrams gets to it.

Besides, this is a Camaro forum....you have to love the American vehicle with 1500 hp

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Old 08-13-2008, 01:46 PM   #23
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OK if Russia was first to drop a nuke I think that the IS would have the ablility to hit back. because its gone.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:12 PM   #24
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I remember reading a book called Investment Biker that as he rolled through the Eastern part of the Former Soviet Union, he saw countless disabled ICBM sites. I'm not entirely certain Russia has an effective ICBM capacity. They might have to drop their nukes from turbo-prop driven Tu-95 Bear aircraft.

F-22 Raptor vs Bear? That's going to be Raptor every time
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Beelzebubba View Post
I remember reading a book called Investment Biker that as he rolled through the Eastern part of the Former Soviet Union, he saw countless disabled ICBM sites. I'm not entirely certain Russia has an effective ICBM capacity. They might have to drop their nukes from turbo-prop driven Tu-95 Bear aircraft.

F-22 Raptor vs Bear? That's going to be Raptor every time
We'd like to think they're archaic.....but I'm sure there is a "Modern" element to their missle systems....
there must be for them to be this cocky with a country trying to join the UN.
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